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Well, it wasn't really a tricky thing to do, really. I listen to as many books on CD as I can because I have to spend a lot of time in the car, and what better way to pass the time on the road than to be listening to a good book. Anyway, this gal I work with also listens to books on her car CD and I loaned her my copies of "Enders Game" and "Speaker for the Dead). She was a little dubious at first, but warmed to EG, and really got into SftD.
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I considered myself a 'non sci fi reader' until one of my friends whom I trust implicitly told me I should read EG. The rest is history and I've dabbled in several other sci fi authors since then as well. I do find that I enjoy OSC sci fi more than any other because he gets into the relationships and the characters as well as creating a different universe and environment. I guess that's what draws me to an author.
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I still consider myself to be a non-science fiction reader. I don't like fantastical. Science fiction is great, as long as it's grounded somewhat in reality (perhaps why I liked EG, ES, and SP more than the others). Once you get spaceships and weird aliens, it not real anymore. Historical fiction is also good because it still uses the basic laws or rules of the history it's fictionalising. A lot of people are interested in the science aspect, or other storyline subplots rather than the fantastical elements. For example, they would like Shadow Puppets because of the political storyline.
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I got EG in the YA section and it didn't say any where on it that it was sci-fi but it did mention that ES was coming out the next month (as part of an effort to put a lot of adult books into YA) so I asked for that for my b-day. I realized at once that I was doing the series wrong (in my opinion) so I went to look for SFTD and my mom told me to look in the sci-fi section. I pretty much freaked out, but I bought it any way cuz I'm hooked. I can't ever find any other other I like in sci-fi. Except Gene Brewer because he wrote K-PAX and On a Beam of Light. But that's a whole other topic. I've rambled on quite a bit. I haven't convinced any other people to read EG (except one in a trade but she likes sci-fi so it doesn't matter) because even if they're willing to go into a different genre, they seem to think the whole kids in space thing sounds stupid. Oh well, I'll keep trying.
*I did almost get my brother to read it though*
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If you are looking for other SciFi writers, I'd like to recommend a couple:
Ursula LeGuin and Anne McCaffrey. I haven't liked everything each has written, but their track record is awfully good, IMO.
And, I'm into the second non-SciFi (a bit fantastical though) book by an author, Peter David, who does quite a bit of SciFi (Star Trek, Babylon 5). The first book is "Sir Apropos of Nothing" and the second book is "The Woad to wuin". It's very tongue in cheek, and very funny. And despite that it's satirical, the characters are nicely developed and they have really good plot lines. Oh, and the ending of the first book was quite apropos. Posts: 168 | Registered: Aug 2003
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The 3rd (final?) book of the "Apropos of Nothing" books is out now in hardback. While the 1st 2 were fun, they're not worht hardback prices to me, so I'm waiting for the paperback (or library. . . ).
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Narnia, what other SF authors have you liked?
Morgaine, you say "Once you get spaceships and weird aliens, it not real anymore".
Does that mean that you haven't found OSC's books in which there are space ships and/or weird aliens, such as the original Ender's Game quartet, The Worthing Saga, Treason, and Wyrms to be as real as his other works? Why not?
Have you ever read Octavia Butler's Xenogenesis trilogy (Dawn, Imago and Adulthood Rites)? Did they ring false with you?
For me, it's all a question of ability. If an author has the ability to create stories of depth that ring true to their readers, they will be able to do so regardless of the environment or props, so to speak, that appear in the story. If they can't, the stories are probably going to feel unrealistic regardless of the absence of aliens and spaceships.
quote: The 3rd (final?) book of the "Apropos of Nothing" books is out now in hardback. While the 1st 2 were fun, they're not worht hardback prices to me, so I'm waiting for the paperback (or library. . . ).
It's the Library for me. I love the Library. I'm also getting some Audio books from them too, but as their CD collection is very limited, I joined Audible.com and burn my own CD's. It's a great way to keep up on my reading. I listened to all 5 "Outlander" books by Diana Gabaldon, and because they were abridged , I then went back to the Library and took each tome out (each one is not less than 800 pages) and devoured them in print. Love, love, love her books. Posts: 168 | Registered: Aug 2003
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quote:Does that mean that you haven't found OSC's books in which there are space ships and/or weird aliens, such as the original Ender's Game quartet, The Worthing Saga, Treason, and Wyrms to be as real as his other works? Why not?
Have you ever read Octavia Butler's Xenogenesis trilogy (Dawn, Imago and Adulthood Rites)? Did they ring false with you?
No, I didn't find them to be as real, simply because they weren't as grounded in reality. Ender's Game still had Earth, with the basic properties of Earth, albeit a more advanced Earth. Ender's Shadow also, still dealt with familiar rules, countries, references etc. Once Ender got out to other planets, the reality of it decreased and it went back to Science Fiction, as it should have been. But for a short while, Ender lived in that magical place that Alvin lived in Seventh Son, an alternative Earth with similar rules.
Meh, it's all a personal opinion. I personally don't like the fantastical part of Sci-Fi. It's the scientific, political, ideological ideas that I like, not the aliens, alternative universes, and spaceships.
I like OSC's style, though, as well. For some reason, I can't explain why, the Homecoming series was great, and that was purely fantastical SciFi. I can only attribute it to the writing style, since the same concepts, by any other author, would not be as sweet.
quote: I still consider myself to be a non-science fiction reader. I don't like fantastical. Science fiction is great, as long as it's grounded somewhat in reality (perhaps why I liked EG, ES, and SP more than the others).
I have only read the Ender quartet (ending with Children of the Mind) to date, although I did start Pastwatch, but could not get into it. However, what makes a book really good for me, regardless of genre, is that the characters are well drawn, and that I care about what the characters do and what happens to them. Unfortunately, much of science fiction writing is all about technobabble and little about character development. That is where I think Ursula LeGuin and Anne McCaffry stand out along with OSC. They all pay attention to character.
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OSC is the only sci-fi author that I have come to like. Before I read EG, I had shunned myself from the genre. Try reading Poul Anderson's novels, it's a killer (metaphorically speaking, I could almost vomit after reading Anderson's books). OSC is an excellent writer and I believe that he could make even the most boring book extravagant and tempting to read.
"Remember, the enemy's gate is down"
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quote:Originally posted by unohoo Unfortunately, much of science fiction writing is all about technobabble and little about character development.
I agree. Have you read Ender's Shadow/Shadow of the Hegemon/Shadow Puppet's yet? I thought the character development there was great. OSC is amazing at understanding people, human nature, and creating real people. Actually, almost all of his books, it's more about the people than the sci-fi. Sure it has a plot, but what good is a plot if you don't understand the characters?
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I haven't read any of the Shadow series yet Morgaine. They are on my list of books to read (after "Running with Scissors" ).
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OSC's sci-fi books are so different from any others - I believe this is why I like them. They're simply interesting, unlike any other sci-fi's I've ever had the misfortune to read.
"Remember, the enemy's gate is down"
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Ever read The Dragonrider's of Pern? Uch, that's a perfect example of a similar genre of SciFi that's horrible to read. (I thought the beginning sounded similar to the Homecoming series, but it was still awful.)
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I really need to take you people under a wing of some sort and introduce you to some books. j/k
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Just becuase I don't like it, doens't mean you shouldn't try it. Apparently, many SciFi fans love the series. It's about as essential as Asimov's robot series (or Enderverse for OSC fan ). If you like that sort of thing, you might like the books.
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I was a longtime literary snob and rebellious youth so my mother's addiction to Sci Fi was unattractive. But my brother told me the story of Ender's Game, and on it went. This summer I read 2 1/2 Dune books, and I think they are also very strong on character with a not too much gadget worship.
Morgaine, have you read the Homecoming Series? It has an underlying realism that I enjoy.
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On the lighter side, another tricky way to get someone to inadvertently read sci fi is to paste pages to the side of their cereal boxes... Ba Dum Ching!
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pooka, that's funny. I always said ba-da-bing. But I can see the difference, it's all very clear now... You're absolutely correct, Morgaine. I should try reading it. Now what was it called? The Dragonriders , or something. Who's it written by?
"Remember, the enemy's gate is down"
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quote:Originally posted by pooka Morgaine, have you read the Homecoming Series? It has an underlying realism that I enjoy.
Yes, I have read that series, but only twice so I'm not an expert . . . yet. But yes, strangely that one was realistic, even though the actual elements were purely fantastical. I haven't sat down and analysed why I like it, but I just do.
quote:Originally posted by wieczorek Now what was it called? The Dragonriders , or something. Who's it written by?
It's called The Dragonriders of Pern by Anne McCaffrey (sp?). I'm sure she's come out with prequels and sequels and all sorts of mishugas along with them. Let me know what you think of them.
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Morgaine, as you have pointed out, Anne McCaffrey has a whole series on Dragons and on Pern (many of which intersect ). I haven't read those as they fall more into the realm of fantasy, which doesn't appeal to me as much as SciFi or other genres (Mystery is one of my favorites and lately I've read a few memoirs that are wonderful). One book that she wrote that I really liked is Freedom's Landing. There is an entire Freedom series, but I think they got a bit tedious after the first couple of books. Here's a web page that lists her books: Anne McCaffrey. She has lived in Ireland for quite a while, so maybe that is a source for the fantasy aspects of her writing.
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thanks Morgaine. I'll have to start on one of those books after I finish Seventh Son . I just got it today in the mail (after waiting for a couple of weeks too long). Then again, that may just be my impatience... also, I thank you, unohoo, for the Anne McCaffrey website. I also prefer sci-fi (but only OSC's, so I'm a special case, just as every other equally individualistic being in the Enderverse).
*edited b/c I forgot to put "website" after Anne McCaffrey...hehehe "Remember, the enemy's gate is down"
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I like any sci-fi that either makes no sense whatsoever (Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy), or is so detailed and has enough grasp on reality to make perfect sense (Ender's Game). Anywhere in between and it gets boring.
But, yeah, Orson Scott Card is great. I hope he'll achieve the same "classic" status as Tolkien, King, and Grisham. 'Course, what do those three author's have in common? MOVIES! So, as soon as EG comes out, and assuming that Star Wars kid doesn't screw it up, I'm going to expect immediate "classic" status for OSC. Or, classicer...
Anyway, back to the topic: I got my mom to read EG, but she's pretty open to anything. My friends aren't real big book readers, though, so I haven't tried with anybody else. I will when the opportunity comes up, though.
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Da_Goat, since you like stuff by Douglas Adams (Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy) you might be interested in reading Terry Pratchetts (sp?) Ringworld series. I read "Guards! Guards!" which I found had much of the same style of dry humor as does Hitchhiker..
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goat, while I understand that Tolkien and those others have great status among books lovers, they don't get the same credit with me. I find Tolkien's books to be extremely tedious and yet, the Lord of the Rings I and II have both been amazing. Does it make sense? Yes, the two movies had good directors. But Grisham's movies couldn't be considered even acceptable to me - they're garbage, luxo. Hehe, sorry, I had to do it. King's are okay, I suppose. But they're not special. I don't think that writing books that evolve from your nightmares qualifies as writing a book, or not in King's case, anyway. I once had this dream that some girl who I guess was my little sister in my dream (I'm an only child) was thrown out of a window at night and then the person who threw her out picked up a pitchfork and looked at me and said, "We can't let that happen, now can we?" And then I saw the pitchfork coming at me and then I woke up. Imagine that turning into a movie. I can't...hehe, I think I don't like King very much...
Unohoo, are there any other books that are very similar to OSC's... hail the Almighty OSC !! Ender and Shadow books? I have finished them all and I am looking for some other books like them - it's a shame that they're all done. But imagine if I was alive in 1978 (wasn't that when EG was written?) I'd have to have read EG and waited another decade or so for SFTD. That'd be terrible. I'm lucky that I could read 25 years worth of books in a month (especially when they're the Ender and Shadow books!!). So I'm not looking for just any sci-fi book, but an imitation OSC sci-fi book, if you understand what I mean... I want it to be like OSC's Ender/Shadow books...see, I think that I might be asking a little too much...but if you (or anyone) has any suggestions, I am open to them!!
"Remember, the enemy's gate is down"
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wiecsorek, I can't think of any OSC style books at present, but I'll definitely post my thoughts on that topic should any float my way
However, I think that the books that really make it for me are those where the author pays attention to character development. The thing about OSC is his characters become real people to me. This is not strictly SciFi, but I absolutely love Diana Gabaldon's books. So far, there are five in the Outlander series. The stories are mostly from Claire's POV who steps back 200 years in time from 1948 to 1743 (in Outlander). Gabaldon classifies her books as historical novels, but it has everything, adventure, romance, time travel, history, and overall wonderful characterization. The people in her novels are beautifully fleshed out. And each book is not less than 800 pages. Furthermore, there are at least two more books on the way to add to the five that are in print. These are the titles: "Outlander" "Dragon Fly in Amber" "Voyager" "Drums of Autum" "The Fiery Cross".
My local library had all five books too.
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wieczorek, I was merely stating that I hope OSC achieves the popularity of those authors. Other than Tolkien, I don't much like those authors either. And I hate Tom Clancy who everybody seems to think is SO good.
I don't think Tolkien is tedious to read at all, though.
unohoo: I think I started reading a Terry Pratchett book a while ago, but left it half way through due to boredom. 'Course, I was a fifth grader...I dunno, maybe I'll look into his (her?) books again after I've finished my list of must-reads.
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Thanks unohoo. I now have a really long list of books to read - there are about 15-20 on my list. My friend wants me to read these books called "The Sword of Truth" series by Terry Goodkind. I believe there are 8 in the series. (??) I also am in the process of reading The Seventh Son and after that The Red Prophet and the other books after that. Is this the correct order that they come in??
The Seventh Son The Red Prophet Prentice Alvin Alvin Journeyman Heartfire *Crystal City*
Then I am going to read some books by Anne McCaffrey (suggested by someone on hatrack) and then I'll read those by Gabaldon.
But this isn't set in stone ofcourse. I might decide to read an OSC book in between other books - I think that if I stayed away from them for too long, I might go insane...and I will certainly stop reading whatever book I'm in the middle of when SOTG is released.
goat, no need to worry. I understand what it is you're saying. I think that the EG may also add to OSC's prestige and popularity among even non-scifi people. But if it doesn't, I'm sure that OSC's longtime readers will still remain loyal!! If the movie doesn't go over well (and I'm sure it will end up being great) then we still have the books to read, which is the best thing.
"Remember, the enemy's gate is down"
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wiecsorek, I did recommend Anne McCaffrey and I like some of her books, but having read both her and Diana Gabaldon, I think I'm safe in recommending you read the "Outlander" series before you read Anne McCaffrey's books. For one, Gabaldon is consistantly better than McCaffrey (IMO).
Also, I'm not familiar with the Terry Goodkind books, so those are going to have to find the way to my reading list.
[Edited to add this comment to Da_Goat.] Da_Goat, I liked Guards! Guards! but do not feel compelled to read more of his books. I listened to that book on CD in my car as I was driving in the course of my work. This book was not one that I hated to stop listening to when I got to my destination. The only reason I mentioned it is because his style is reminscent of Douglas Adams style and so thought you would find his books enjoyable.
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I'm really enjoying Card's How to Write Sci Fi and Fantasy . Though I'm not sure which kind of story any given one of the Homecoming series is.
I'm very familiar with the source material, The Book of Mormon and so there is the story itself, and then there is my interest in what the author is going to do with it. Similar to his Old Testament based books. It's kind of like I'm watching Card writing these stories and that's the real story. I know it was probably much more complicated that I imagine, but it's really fun.
I hardly read anything growing up. At least it felt that way. I refused to read most of my English class assignments, and I wasn't reading King... Obviously I was reading something. I like both The Chronicles of Narnia and the original Little House books. Though I've read some of the offshoots. I like the ones from Scotland but the ones about Rose are a lot like the Star Wars prequels.
I'm still not an avid reader. I'm more like a binge-er, and Card makes the Oreos.
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unohoo - Terry Pratchett's series is "Discworld." "Ringworld" is a well-known hard-SF series by Larry Niven. I highly recommend PTerry to anyone who likes a good laugh; except (aimed towards you, Goat) - do NOT start with the first few books, they are extremely boring. "Mort" and "Wyrd Sisters" are both great books to start from; don't worry about readin sequentially.
In the more serious field, people might want to look at the three trilogies by Robin Hobb. I consider her fantasy's OSC - she is brilliant at painting fascinating conflict and human emotion, and has amazing plotting and style as well. George R. R. Martin's "Song of Ice and Fire" has incredible characters and character development, and a truly epic plot, although this is one of those series that will only be over in about a decade, at the rate that he finishes these 1000 page tomes.
It's funny that people here seem to favor SF over fantasy, and say that they really like the characters... I find that most of the best character-driven stories, along the SF/F spectrum, seem to be in the fantasy genre (including the aforementioned series, as well as Roger Zelazny's Amber books and other examples...)
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quote: It's funny that people here seem to favor SF over fantasy, and say that they really like the characters... I find that most of the best character-driven stories, along the SF/F spectrum, seem to be in the fantasy genre (including the aforementioned series, as well as Roger Zelazny's Amber books and other examples...)
I can only say why I believe I prefer SciFi to fantasy, Standback, and that is because with fantasy I often have a problem getting by the underlying premise and it often interferes with my enjoyment of the overall book. That aside, if the books you have recommended don't dwell on the fantasy aspects, but instead concentrate on the characters and their interaction with each other, then I'm sure that I'll enjoy those books.
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quote:That aside, if the books you have recommended don't dwell on the fantasy aspects, but instead concentrate on the characters and their interaction with each other, then I'm sure that I'll enjoy those books.
Hmmmm... That's a real toughie. Let me think. Both Robin Hobb and George R.R. Martin are very very focused on the characters and the interaction. Hobb's books manage to kind of build the fantasy aspects up - the world starts out an almost perfectly normal mideaval court/trade setting, with perhaps one exception, and gradually the fantasy seeps in. For example, in her Farseer trilogy, one of the basic points is, "What if magic were addictive?" So it starts out very calm and non-magical, the protoganist gradually deals with magic in his own way, and he is the constant companion of one who is quite, quite addicted to magic. You can see that this is basically a character-based story... using a fantasy setting to address very realistic and thought-provoking subjects.
Martin has magic kind of looming in the background througout much of his work. Only TSR fiction really has wizards blasting each other with fireballs, but Martin goes to all lengths to keep magic and the supernatural just that - distant, mysterious, and, well, not normal.
I am curious what exactly you mean by not being able to get by the underlying premise of a fantasy world. Do you feel that fantasy just "doesn't make sense," that magic couldn't exist? Or would you accept a world where magic was included, as long as you learn just where the fantastical elements are coming from? In any case, if you do like SF, I wouldn't write off the fantasy genre without at least trying some of the really good stuff in the field... I'd be curious to know what fantasy you've read.
In an introduction to a collection of short stories she edited, Margaret Weiss talked of how a dragon is the equivalent of, say, a nuclear bomb. They both have tremendous power, both are very much feared, both are almost never actually used, and when they are - they annihilate all in their path. The only differenceis, a dragon's much more beautiful to look at. And in the same way, a good fantasy story deals with the same conflicts and characters and ideas any other story does - but it does it with flair, with great vividness, and it is allowed exageration of fantastic proportions in order to put characters in situations which in real life would be far-fetched or impossible. That's what I see in the genre - and apoligies to Mrs. Weiss, because she said it a whole lot better than I just did. Posts: 5 | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote: I am curious what exactly you mean by not being able to get by the underlying premise of a fantasy world.
This wasn't my point, but the question does apply for me. I have been trying to figure this out, why I enjoy the Alvin Maker series but have avoided reading Harry Potter. I don't believe in good black magic and bad black magic.
Alvin Maker is more like accupuncture and Feng Shui. But if Harry Potter is going to dress all in black and run around with an animal familiar, it's kind of hard to take seriously. That is, I can watch the films and it's not taking it seriously. But I'm not into the books. If my kids want to read the books, I'll let them and then we'll talk about it. I guess if they've read the books, then I'll need to so I know what we need to talk about.
So I guess you could say I'm one of those right wing Christian nuts who generate so much free publicity for J.K. Rowling every time she releases something. I guess I am kind of leary of universes in which the the opposition to good is seated entirely within man. So technically I should be opposed to the Homecoming series.
What about Star Wars and LOTR? I enjoy the movies.
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quote: I am curious what exactly you mean by not being able to get by the underlying premise of a fantasy world. Do you feel that fantasy just "doesn't make sense," that magic couldn't exist? Or would you accept a world where magic was included, as long as you learn just where the fantastical elements are coming from? In any case, if you do like SF, I wouldn't write off the fantasy genre without at least trying some of the really good stuff in the field... I'd be curious to know what fantasy you've read.
Actually, I'm not entirely sure why, Standback. I have read some fantasy, but it was so long ago that I don't remember that much. I did get sucked into reading J. R. R. Tolkien, and found the Hobbit quite charming. However, I though the Ring series, while it had elements that kept me reading, it was somewhat tedious, IMO. But, I think that the reason I stayed with the books was because the characters were so well fleshed out. I couldn't watch the movie though, I gonged it after about ten minutes. OTOH pooka, I loved the original Star Wars movies, and thought the Phantom Menace was unwatchable (I also gonged it). So, maybe, with fantasy, I find that too much of it tries too hard with the fantasmagorical (is this a real word? ) at the expense of the characters. But, I am willing to give some of the books a chance, as a good story is always a good story. Posts: 168 | Registered: Aug 2003
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I would really try to sit through LOTR: TFOTR just so you can watch the second one, which is much better.
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You will find that many, many avid readers of fantasy (myself among them) found Tolkien very slow and dull. The man was a genious, but his brilliance was far more in imagination than in writing style.
My recommendations stand... Look for "Assassin's Apprentice," by Robin Hobb, and "A Game of Thrones" by George R.R. Martin. OSC's Alvin Maker series definitely qualifies as fantasy, and is wonderful as well (begins with "Seventh Son"). And of course, there are many, many, many others...
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quote:I have been trying to figure this out, why I enjoy the Alvin Maker series but have avoided reading Harry Potter. I don't believe in good black magic and bad black magic.
That's interesting. Does that mean you believe that magic is inherently neutral, neither good nor evil? Or that however magic is used, it's always black magic and therefore evil?
If the latter, it would seem to clash with Alvin Maker, where it is repeatedly argued that knacks and other magical skills are skills like any other, and it is only how a person uses his "knack" that makes him good or evil. The knack itself is purely neutral. I don't know how you can compare it to accupuncture and Feng-Shui - lighting fires with a thought, spying on people from afar, and causing tidal waves flooding entire cities sounds like any old black magic to me. And of course there's also "black" magic - as in, the magic the blacks use in the series - which is plain old voodoo, and the same arguments clearly hold.
If the former - if you believe that magic isn't "good" or "bad" by nature - I fail to see the objection to Harry Potter, where magic is simply power, that can be used for both good and evil. The bad guys are simply the ones who choose to use that power to destroy and hurt and conquer; the good guys learn much the same things, but use it only for good cause and self defense. Where exactly is the clash here? I also don't recall Harry "dressing in black and running around with an animal familiar."
quote:I guess I am kind of leary of universes in which the the opposition to good is seated entirely within man.
Wait - are you saying your objection to the series is that there's no devil figure, just normal people? Normal people can't be bad without a visible and tangible supernatural entity urging them on? Assume that the devil is invisible and impossible to notice directly; he generally is.
Furthermore, Voldemort is definitely quite a devil figure, whose evil far surpasses those of normal men, even if he is technically a human being. Whereas in, say, Alvin Maker, the Unmaker is simply the personification of an idea - the idea of men allowing their noble (or not-so-noble) beliefs to cause pain and destruction. The evil is human, only the encouragement and persuasion is external.
I really love the HP series. I finished OOP in three days - and yes, I was one of those fanatic people who waited in line and celebrated with "Gryffindor Grog" (otherwise known as cherry sprite, but hey, that's what it was called) and chocolate frogs with wizard cards until midnight to receive my copy of OOP. I was the 15th person in line!! Whippee!! At that time, however, I didn't know about OSC!! Isn't that strange? It's kind of creepy to me, ughhhh, sickening, isn't it?? But I know about OSC's... hail the Almighty OSC !! books now, which suits me just fine. Oh, by the way. I finished Seventh Son and now I'm on Red Prophet. I'm finding it difficult to get time to read it - we have to read To Kill a Mockingbird in English... Has anyone read that? I'd really like to end on a happy note, however, so... I'm going to go read some Red Prophet!!!!!
*I knew there was something wrong with my post, and finally I realized I hadn't put a " " by OSC!!
Yeah I read To Kill A Mockingbird. I don't want to give you any spoilers, but pay attention to Boo. He plays a different sort of role than you would expect.
Its an interesting book, but not nearly as good as something written by, how do you say it Wieczorek, the Almighty OSC .
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It's hard to say. I know people are capable, perhaps fully as capable, of evil as the devil. Valdemort was wrong, though. There isn't power unless it's being used in an evil way. If you are using it for good it is authority, responsibility, and service.
Alvin does struggle against the Unmaker. My understanding is that he has a connection with the laws of nature beyond what most normal people that I have met in our universe do. He can't say a spell and make things happen.
But maybe my understanding of black magic is poor. Anyway, an animal familiar is those pets all the students have to have. And the school uniform is a black robe. The teachers wear pointy hats. I realize Harry Potter is also set in an alternate universe.
I can say that I also wouldn't encourage my kids to read Alvin Maker until they are a bit older, and that would also be with my close supervision.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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quote:There isn't power unless it's being used in an evil way. If you are using it for good it is authority, responsibility, and service.
I strongly disagree with this statement. Power is a neutral-value concept. "Authority" is merely a kind of power - it's the power a man has over those who have agreed to abide by his rules. "Responsibility" and "service" are both goals, for which power can be used - as in, what do you want to use your power for? Well, I want to use it to fulfill my responsibilities. Or to serve my country/family/religion/etc. The point is, power is used.
When, for example, Harry Potter and co. set out in Philosopher's Stone to stop Snape from stealing the Stone - they are acting here with the goal of both protecting Harry's life, and defending the entire wizardly community against a man who might bring about the return of Lord Voldemort, who will undoubtably resume his reign of death and terror. I'm sure you can see a sense of "responsibility" and "service" over here. Clearly, these are goals worth pursuing.
quote:My understanding is that he has a connection with the laws of nature beyond what most normal people that I have met in our universe do.
Isn't that, like, the definition of a witch?
quote:He can't say a spell and make things happen.
Not a "spell", per se. But he can look at anything in the world and tell it what to do. He can tell iron to turn into gold, or the ocean to rise up and flood a city. Why does it matter whether or not he makes an incantation? Besides, again, consider the magic of the black slaves. (WARNING! Spoiler for "Prentice Alvin") Arthur Stuart's mother makes a poppet of herself, "with her own milk and spit in it," and sticks on blackbird feathers in order to change herself into a bird and fly away, taking her baby with her so the slaveowner wouldn't be able to sell him. The magic is so powerful that it takes all her energy, and she dies as soon as her son is safe.
Now, that is "black magic" by any definition I've ever heard of. Are you going to say this woman is evil? Are you going to say she shouldn't have done that, not because she shouldn't have given up her own life or running away was a bad idea - but because she was using "black" magic, and not whatever you consider "a connection with nature"?
If the Alvin Maker has a single central point (besides Mormon allegory, of course) it is this: there is no "good" magic or "bad" magic - just magic. What's good or bad is the way you use it and what you use it for. And in the real world, where magic seems somewhat disinclined to show its face, that translates into power. No good power, no bad power. Just power, and what you do with it.
Pooka, HP's Hogwarts is not in an alternate universe - the Hogwarts Express is reached by a portkey in a brick wall in the London railway station. Not an alternate universe - portkey.
I also disagree with power being only evil. You must not always listen to the words of the "bad" characters and then assume that the whole book is evil. Even fairy tales consist of antagonists. A story cannot exist, by definition, without both a protagonist and an antagonist. I would hope that it would contain more, but, if not possible... take Napoleon for example. He had aspirations to conquer all of Europe, né? His wishes were not evil - he truly wished, although he was an absolutest - to rule Europe justly. He had no dreams to run rampid through the streets and slaughter village people, which I might say is not a positive action. Would you not agree that Napoleon must have had power in order to tuck as much of Europe as he did under his belt? This is what I believe. But I do suppose that Locke and Rousseau wouldn't agree (when I say Locke, I mean John Locke, English philosopher, not Locke as in Peter Wiggin). Hail the Almighty OSC !! Understand, Locke?
"Remember, the enemy's gate is down"
Posts: 667 | Registered: Aug 2003
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I've pondering your question, Standback, about why I tend towards SciFi and away from Fantasy. Another reason is that with SciFi, I can envision a possibility of the "science" proposed, as in the auiua (sp?) that OSC proposes in the Enderverse, for example. While it is probable that there is no such thing, it is not wholy outside all probability, as infinitessmal as it may be. However, IMO, all fantasy is just that, fantasy, and could never be possible. Which is probably why I tend to gong most fantasy novels when I am only a few pages into them. However, if the writer is really skilled, and the characters are well developed, then I'll ignore the fantasy aspect and concentrate on the other aspects, to the point where I often just skim those passages that are pure fantasy and don't seem to be doing much to advance the characters in any way.
Posts: 168 | Registered: Aug 2003
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If it's a requirement to be an automatic Harry Potter fan, I want my money back.
. . . that I paid . . . to join . . .
Besides, The Cheat could kill Harry Potter with his eyes closed, and both hands taped behind his back. And Harry can even have a spear.
Posts: 66 | Registered: Feb 2003
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, I then went back to the Library and took each tome out (each one is not less than 800 pages) and devoured them in print. Love, love, love her books. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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j/k
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!! Ender and Shadow books? I have finished them all and I am looking for some other books like them - it's a shame that they're all done. But imagine if I was alive in 1978 (wasn't that when EG was written?) I'd have to have read EG and waited another decade or so for SFTD. That'd be terrible. I'm lucky that I could read 25 years worth of books in a month (especially when they're the Ender and Shadow books!!). So I'm not looking for just any sci-fi book, but an imitation OSC sci-fi book, if you understand what I mean... I want it to be like OSC's Ender/Shadow books...see, I think that I might be asking a little too much...but if you (or anyone) has any suggestions, I am open to them!!![[Dont Know]](graemlins/dontknow.gif)
I can't think of any OSC style books at present, but I'll definitely post my thoughts on that topic should any float my way ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Isn't that strange? It's kind of creepy to me, ughhhh, sickening, isn't it?? ![[Angst]](graemlins/angst.gif)
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Has anyone read that? I'd really like to end on a happy note, however, so... I'm going to go read some Red Prophet!!!!! 
