posted
By any technology we understand? Absolutely! Using Alvin's powers? Clearly not.
There were several times when his attempts to do things tiny bit by tiny bit failed miserably; but as soon as he did large clusters, worked perfectly. Remember, to Alvin, the little pieces are much like the roaches or anything else -- he TELLS them what to do. The rules of science clearly only apply in a very limited sense.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
have not read Crystal City yet grrrrrr Stupid libray didn't have it and claimed they couldn't get it. Posts: 1103 | Registered: Apr 2002
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Is the word "tabernacle" used most by Mormons, or are there other faiths that also use it?
I wonder if the use of "tabernacle" is a case of OSC using language that's familiar to him, and not realizing how strange it might sound to others.
Posts: 2911 | Registered: Aug 2001
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plaid, do you mean currently? historically? To me, it's a translation (and one I almost never use) of the Mishkan.
A search finds: some independent tabernacles, Wiccan tabernacles, Baptist Tabernacles, a concert venue. It's apparently been the name for some type of Catholic receptacle since the Middle Ages, a township in New Jersey, there's the fairly well-known choir . . .
The majority of uses of the word are unquestionably religious. But the Crystal City was not portrayed as a religious community -- at least, not until that word was introduced.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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plaid, the tabernacle was the chest that held the Ten Commandments in the Old Testament, from what I remember. I know it's in the OT. So Catholics and Protestants should know about it, probably Jews too.
Posts: 1056 | Registered: Mar 2002
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*blinks* HUH? Never heard that usage of "tabernacle" before. See, that's the trouble I have because I think of these things using non-English terms. I would call that the Aron (usually translated "ark"), or more specifically, the Aron ha'Brit ("Ark of the Covenant").
The Mishkan (Tabernacle) was the original building that housed the Aron. Perhaps that's the origin of this alternate (well, to me, anyway) usage of the word?
posted
I finished reading Crystal City over the weekend and wanted to say something and so I joined the forum. There was something odd about the use of "tabernacle." Like others I have seen posting here, I found it jarring. Although I am not quite sure what to make of it.
However, that isn't what I wanted to talk about in this post. Mostly I was disappointed in the way it jumped right into the center of things. I guess I should explain a little background. I attended the BYU Science Fiction and Fantasy symposium in early 2003 and OSC gave a reading. What he read was Alvin's first encounter with Jim Bowie, how he found Abe and Coz on the river and Arthur Stuart's first interactions with the slaves they eventually freed. It was very humorous and I was looking forward to reading the rest of the encounters. Oh well, the story was just as good without it, but it was a disappointment all the same. Since I am new here, I think I will just be lurking for a while to get a feel for everyone, but this is just a hello along with my above comments.
Posts: 1 | Registered: Dec 2003
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About 2 months ago I started the Alive Maker series and I finished the Crystal City about 3 weeks ago. With that being said I had absolutly no idea that the story had any basis in the morman religion. I guess that is a good thing, however now that I know this it leaves me with uneasy feelings about a story which just until 20 minutes ago, I couldn't find fault with. Hell, I don't know how I feel right now, but unfortunatly I do feel different. Anybody else see where I am coming from?
Posts: 1 | Registered: Dec 2003
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First of all, I preface my comments with the following: I just finished the story, so it's fresh in my mind. and I am devoutly LDS so any comments I make are going to be coming from my perspective.
As far as the tabernacle debate goes my thoughts are that the story of "exodus" from Barcy was filled with Old Testament similiarities to the children of Israel, including crossing water twice. Particularly for me the crossing of the Mizzippy with a wall of water on one side, I could only picture the Cecil B. De Mille version in my mind. Also, the tabernacle is to me as much the place that the Israelites used to store the ark as it is a place where a momon choir sings. Therefore for it to be referenced as such wasn't disturbing to me at all.
Personally although there are the obvious comparisons of characters to historical figures (Alvin, Measure, Mike Fink), I think it's more like what OSC did in "Saints" where he made composite fictional characters that had the combined experiences of many individuals for quite a few of the others. As a student of LDS church history, I don't see any direct correlations for Peggy (other than being Alvin/Joseph's wife), Arthur, Verily, or anyone else off the top of my head.
Lastly, and I should probably put these first so as not to end on a sour note, the thing that I didn't like about the story was it's overly fast pace through certain sections. The trip to Mexico City wasn't nearly fleshed out enough for me. Nor was the birth of Vigor and final gathering to the Crystal City. I had my worries when I first picked up the book and saw how thin it was, although I think some it might have to do with my general knowledge of the gathering to Nauvoo (Crystal City).
Finally, if anyone could confirm that the inside cover map has incorrectly placed Crystal City on the western shore of the Mizzippy, I'd greatly appreciate it. (Nauvoo is most definitely on the East in Illinois, not on the West in Iowa)
Posts: 995 | Registered: May 2003
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quote:About 2 months ago I started the Alive Maker series and I finished the Crystal City about 3 weeks ago. With that being said I had absolutly no idea that the story had any basis in the morman religion. I guess that is a good thing, however now that I know this it leaves me with uneasy feelings about a story which just until 20 minutes ago, I couldn't find fault with. Hell, I don't know how I feel right now, but unfortunatly I do feel different. Anybody else see where I am coming from?
Well, are you feeling more unaccountably Mormon than you were twenty minutes ago? You'd be surprised how many stories are based off the Bible, and I hear that book has an even BIGGER following.
(In all seriousness, a writer's inspiration is going to come from the things that touch his life the strongest. In this case, as in many others, that inspiration happens to be his religion, for Card. However, the reason why we like books is how they touch US when we read them. Sometimes that's the same inspiration the writer was feeling, sometimes it's completely different. It doesn't mean it has to either effect or manifest itself the same way in us.
And, while people have been oppressed, persuaded, pressured and preached into another religion, I really don't think anyone has ever been hornswaggled into one.)
Posts: 7600 | Registered: Jan 2001
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I think Arthur Stuart parallels Brigham Young, and making him the half-black son of a slave is OSC's "dig" at Brigham Young's racist attitudes.
Verily Cooper seems to parallel Oliver Cowdery. Calvin may parallel William Smith, or perhaps Sidney Rigdon.
I wasn't disappointed that Alvin tells Jim Bowie that he won't be welcome in the "tabernacle" -- Alvin is learning wisdom: to be less trusting and to recognize that a community can be too open.
So, who does Jim Bowie parallel? Maybe John C. Bennett? If he develops much influence in Furrowspring, then it's a fit, IMO.
Also, the tension between Alvin and Peggy fits well with Joseph and Emma Smith. Their marriage had its share of tense moments, with Joseph secretly practicing polygamy.
I was somewhat disappointed in the scene of the naming of the "tabernacle", too. It seemed to me that Card is trying to "disguise" the Nauvoo temple by using a related Biblical word.
Posts: 450 | Registered: Jul 2000
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The idea that the cover of Crystal City looks like the Salt Lake Temple is just flat off base. It looks like a Catholic Cathedral and a mosque. By the Salt Lake Temple is a building called the Tabernacle. It is where the Tabernacle Choir broadcasts from. It was named for the Israelite Tabernacle, but it's use is much more secular.
No secret rites take place there, though there is a baptistry the same as at any "mormon" church building. The use of the 'observatory" described in the book is more similar to what happens in the Temple. I think OSC was backing off from using the word "temple", but may not have succeeded. Well, hopefully it will wind up just being an artifact of the "women's religion". Something common to OSC's worlds and much speculative fiction is a separate "women's religion".
I still think any attempt at historical parallels are unfounded. John C. Bennett only accomplished what he did because Joseph Smith trusted him. If you want OSC's literal take on the Nauvoo period, try reading Saints .
Up to this book, Alvin has been more concerned with getting people up to his level than taking his level further out. He doesn't "practice" his knack, he just uses it when the need arises.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
I just finished Crystal City last week and absolutely loved it. After dragging myself through Heartfire, it was definitely a breath of fresh air!
I thought Card did an excellent job of bringing together an entertaining story without going off on too many tangents, as he did with Heartfire. Heck, Calvin managed to actually be fairly entertaining without dragging the story down with his "I could care less" attitude.
I also wanted to address those who insist that Alvin is Joseph Smith. While there are some distinct similarities between Alvin and Joseph, I believe that Card has created a truly unique character in Alvin and that any comparisons between him and Joseph Smith are really only superficial.
I think that those who insist that Alvin's life is a metaphor for Joseph's are really selling themselves short. I believe that Card simply took a few aspects of Joseph's life and injected them into Alvin's (his leg operation, being jailed on trumped up charges, etc.), but beyond these few similarities, I think Alvin is a completely different person from Joseph, and I find it laughable that people are finding similarities between other Alvin Maker characters and early Mormon church leaders (such as Arthur Stuart being Brigham Young, etc.).
In short, while it's fun to try to compare characters with folks in real life, I think it's more fun just to enjoy Cards work for what it is--a great piece of fiction about a wonderful fictional character.
I happen to be LDS, and am definitely not trying to bring down those people who are looking for similarities between the Alvin Maker events and the early Mormon church. I just think that perhaps we're reading too much into Card's work and missing the point that Alvin is really an "everyman" who is simply trying to discover his purpose in life.
Posts: 4 | Registered: Jan 2003
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Well I think Alvin is to Joseph Smith as Aslan is to the Historical Christ. I read the entire chronicals of Narnia when I was a child and never recognized that I was reading a Christian Metaphor. Later it became obvious, but I suppose it is possible to ignore it at a first go.
Come to think of it there are many ways OSC compairs with CS Lewis.
posted
Did he really use the word allegory? I think the problem is folks trying to come up with parallels.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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I've changed my mind about the word "tabernacle". Though now I think it's indicative of the seeds of the city's destruction. Maybe Alvin's enemies will realize they can't defeat him by making him look bad, but they could make him look like he's trying to start a religion and that is about the only thing that would give him a motive to prove his mortality.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
Here is what OSC stated in an email to a friend of mine:
"Alvin Maker stories draw from the life of Joseph Smith and have a few other Mormon references"
Obviously this would account for why there are many similarities between Alvin Maker and Joseph Smith. However, for each similarity, I can give you a thousand differences between the two. The problem is that everyone discounts the dissimilarities and only focuses on the few parallels that exist in the stories.
Again, I find it more fun to just enjoy the stories for what they are--fantastic fantasy. Sure, it's fun to find parallels too, but I've noticed that some readers become troubled by this rather than intrigued...so why not just enjoy the stories for what they are?
Posts: 4 | Registered: Jan 2003
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Thanks jeniwren for posting on being "jolted out" of the series. Since I know nothing of Mormon history, I actually wasn't jolted until I came here looking for answers about where the Abe Lincoln and Jim Bowie characters came from and to my surprise I learn that Alvin is parrallel (sp?) to Joseph Smith.
I am not too worried about missing the two short stories that introduced new characters, because Crystal City stands on its own.
I am worried about the Mormon parrallel. I love many of the parrallels, but I always imagined Alvin as one of the reason the world is different. Because magic is real in the Alvin Maker series, so many things are different in that world from this world (e.g. westward expansion is halted for now by virtue of the FOG). Well, since Alvin is so powerful in magic the logic would be that he would be a very different person than any that exists in our 19th century past. Maybe that doesn't make sense...I just thought that Alvin's story would be something completely new (like the whole idea of climbing into a forge and creating a golden plow).
BTW...Arthur isn't Brigham Young...Calvin is (my thoughts at least Posts: 2 | Registered: Dec 2003
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Just finished... Same old, same old, in my opinion.
Alvin is so so so annoying - a passive-agressive holier-than-thou type whose heroism only stems from the fact that nature has given him the ability to do anything he wants and from the fact that the villains he contrasts with pursue evil for no rational reason. The man's a goody-two-shoes, and so is almost everyone he becomes friends with! I keep wishing someone would take Alvin out and make Calvin the main character, but it isn't to be I think.
I also didn't like the not-so-subtle reminder that this story was about Mormonism. Suddenly, it felt like OSC was trying to tell us that the Mormons are the Makers, and hence that all us other non-LDS folks are unwittingly with the Unmaker.
posted
Actually, now that I think about it, forget Calvin too... the rest of the series should drop all the main characters and instead focus solely on Papa Moose as he travels America, dishing up justice Moose-style.
Posts: 8120 | Registered: Jul 2000
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posted
I have to say that I think Alvin could do more and should enjoy it. His childhood promise never to do it for himself seems to be a bit foolish now that so many people depend on him. He should make county line hexes that confuse Finders, Create beutiful objects to make the town wealthy enough to by off politicians and generally go on the offensive.
There is something to the "Passive/Agressive" remark, you cannot always wait and take the first blow before you fight back. Not when the first blow can be leathal. i.e. 9-11
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