posted
I was reading the first chapter of Shadow of the Giant which has been posted, and I was surprised to notice that it features none other than Mazer Rackham actually on Earth! Please correct me if I'm wrong (which I very well may be), but at the end of Ender's Game, wasn't it stated that Mazer would be the pilot of the very colony ship which Ender was on? (pg 311-312 of my paperback edition of EG) Therefore, shouldn't he be in space along with Ender and Val?
posted
Correction: the page reference in EG is 313-314, and Ender even makes a remark about having Mazer there to help him on the colony.
Posts: 1569 | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
Neo-dragon -=- you are so right, and thank you. But now what we need help with is very important. AFTER the announcement that Mazer was going on had accepted the post -- is their any further mention of Mazer in the rest of Ender's Game or anywhere in Speaker or beyond that anybody remembers? Need to know ASAP!!!!
posted
After Eros, here's the only mention of Mazer in Ender's game:
quote: "I'm Demosthenes, Ender, I went out with a bang. A public announcement that I believed so much in the colonization movement that I was going in the first ship myself. At the same time, the Minister of Colonization, a former colonel named Graff, announced that the pilot of the colony ship would be the great Mazer Rackham, and the governor of the colony would be Ender Wiggin."
"They might have asked me."
"I wanted to ask you myself."
"But it's already announced."
"No. They'll be announcing it tomorrow, if you accept. Mazer accepted a few hours ago, back in Eros."
"You're telling everyone that you're Demosthenes? A fourteen-year-old girl?"
"We're only telling them that Demosthenes is going with the colony. Let them spend the next fifty years poring over the passenger list, trying to figure out which one of them is the great demagogue of the Age of Locke."
Ender laughed and shook his head. "You're actually having fun, Val."
"I can't think why I shouldn't."
"All right," said Ender. "I'll go. Maybe even as governor, as long as you and Mazer are there to help me. My abilities are a little underused at present."
Here is the only time he is mentioned in Speaker for the Dead:
quote: "You've got a starship, haven't you?" said Olhado. "I remember reading a story once. Or maybe it was a vid. About an old-time hero in the Bugger Wars, Mazer Rackham. He saved Earth from destruction once, but they knew he'd be dead long before the next battle. So they sent him out in a starship at relativistic speeds, just sent him out and had him come back. A hundred years had gone by for the Earth, but only two years for him."
"You think Miro needs something as drastic as that?"
"There's a battle coming. There are decisions to make. Miro's the smartest person in Lusitania, and the best. He doesn't get mad, you know. Even in the worst of times with Father. Marc o. Sorry, I still call him Father."
"That's all right. In most ways he was."
"Miro would think, and he'd decide the best thing to do, and it always was the best thing. Mother depended on him to. The way I see it, we need Miro when Starways Congress sends its fleet against us. He'll study all the information, everything we've learned in the years that he was gone, put it all together, and tell us what to do."
Ender couldn't help himself. He laughed. "So it's a dumb idea," said Olhado.
"You see better than anybody else I know," said Ender. "I've got to think about this, but you might be right."
They drove on in silence for a while.
"I was just talking," said Olhado. "When I said that about Miro. It was just something I thought, putting him together with that old story. It probably isn't even a true story."
"It's true," said Ender.
"How do you know?"
"I knew Mazer Rackham."
Olhado whistled. "You're old. You're older than any of the trees."
"I'm older than any of the human colonies. It doesn't make me wise, unfortunately."
"Are you really Ender? The Ender?"
"That's why it's my password."
So it appears that all you need to do is come up with some reason why Mazer accepted and then changed his mind. Or perhaps they never intended to send him in the first place, and that was all disinformation.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
I just checked, and there's no mention of Mazer after Eros in Ender's Shadow, and the only other mention of him in any of the books is in Shadow of the Hegemon, and those don't mention anything after Eros.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
Disinformation. Absolutely. It'll make readers think that there's much more to the story, and they'll be hounding you for yet another sequel for years to come.
Posts: 1996 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
OK. For good measure, here's the 2 passages in Shadow of the Hegemon:
quote: Yet she would keep that secret from her family, as she kept it in talking to the prime minister and the press, to the Armenian military and the schoolchildren who had been assembled to meet the great Armenian hero of the Formic War. Armenia needed a hero. She was the only candidate out of this war. They had shown her how the online textbooks already listed her among the ten greatest Armenians of all time. Her picture, her biography, and quotations from Colonel Graff, from Major Anderson, from Mazer Rackham.
quote: And before that, he had called attention to the fact that they all knew Ender had a sister. They also knew that Ender had a brother. Back on Eros, while Ender was in bed recovering from his breakdown after finding out the battles had been real, Mazer Rackham had told them some things about Ender. And Bean had told them more, as they were trapped together while the League War played itself out. They had listened as Bean expounded on what Ender's brother and sister meant to him, that the reason Ender had been born at all during the days of the two-child law was because his brother and sister were so brilliant, but the brother was too dangerously aggressive and the sister too passively compliant. How Bean knew all this he wouldn't tell, but the information was indelibly planted in their memories, tied as it was with those tense days after their victory over the Formics and before the defeat of the Polemarch in his attempt to take over the IF.
Also, there is no mention of him in Invesment Counselor. I don't have any of the other short stories in a searchable format. (And I don't have time to read them right now. We're heading off to the churrascaria!)
posted
*pats self on back* I'm so glad that I could contribute to Shadow of the Giant in some way, even if only in a minor way. Anyway, while there are historical references to Mazer throughout the series as others have posted, I don't think that we are ever told what happens to Mazer after he accepted the job as pilot of the colony ship. So I'm thinking all SotG needs is some reasonable explanation of why he didn't actually get on the ship. Perhaps, as others have suggested, the whole thing was a sham so that the public would think that Mazer was no longer on Earth. After all, he was known as a hero and a military genius, just like Ender. But he may have just wanted to live a quiet life on Earth with nobody harassing him. He didn't actually have to leave Earth because unlike Ender, almost nobody knows what he looks like.
posted
(I now fully appreciate how hard it must be for Scott to be an author when his followers are so detail-oriented to notice these little things....)
posted
Well, the coloney ship with Ender on it left shortly after Ender's jeesh were Kidnapped. It could be that with Ender's Jeesh in the hands of a known murderer Mazer might have decieded last minute that the Earth needed him more. The problem could be answered simply with someone saying, "hey I thought you left on a coloney ship?" and Mazer answering ,"I decided at the last minute I'd be more help here." or, "I was late and the ship left without me," or something like that.
Posts: 147 | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
Or maybe Rackham had some problem that required medical treatment on Earth. Maybe he was an in accident, maybe someone tried to stab him to death, maybe he was under treatment for incipient early-onset Alzheimer's or something. Just so long as he wasn't in any condition to go with the ship even if he wanted to.
[ December 30, 2004, 04:58 AM: Message edited by: Yozhik ]
Posts: 1512 | Registered: A Long Time Ago!
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posted
Maybe the good Mazer went on the ship, and the evil Mazer with a goatee was left behind to have fun on earth.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
Ooh ooh ooh! The co-pilot killed Mazer so he could fly the ship! And then . . . and then . . . and then Graff had a seance to call Mazer into a robot body they made for him! And OSC decided to stop publishing books and just write fanfic! Posts: 1735 | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
And then Buffy came and battled the dead person-posessed robot. Jordi discovered some previously unheard-of particle that slowed it down enough for...
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
I was skimming the first chapter again and noticed that OSC has already updated it. A line of dialogue and a two word response make everything okay.
Actually, now that I think about it, Mazer told Han Tzu not to say his name, but isn't identifying him as the man whom everyone knows piloted the first colony ship practically the same as stating his name? Maybe I'm just nitpicking now...
posted
His name is more likly to get people's attention the just mentioning the words pilot or coloney, some one would have to be seriously listening to them to make the connection. Anyone who just happened to overhear would probly assume they were just talking about the colonaization program. And not really listen to anything else.
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posted
That's true, Catseye; but I was thinking that in such a situation it would be safest to assume that there are people who are carefully listening.
Posts: 1569 | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
If there are people carfully listening then they probly were sent by the government and already know there is an I.F. officer there.
In that case he might be safer with them knowing his identity. I'm assuming that he already knows that the reason Hot Soup is alive is becaues of his fame as a war hero and becaues he has shown that he knows what he is doing. Anyone listening to the conversation might also hesitate more to kill the legend of Mazer Rackham then a nameless I.F. offecer. While Ender is the war hero of the day Mazer is the Legend they all grew up with and that would be his best protection.
While not mentioning his name keeps the public from taking notice of him, the comment about him supposed to being piloting the fist colony will be a blatent declration to anyone listening and thinking about shooting this I.F. interloper in the back of the head, that killing him would be killing possibly the largest Legend of the time. (Ender was still a few years off from reaching Legend status still I'm sure)
quote: (Ender was still a few years off from reaching Legend status still I'm sure)
Not so. When Ender was still on Eros, he had to avoid the colonists as much as possible because he was tired of them telling him about the children they had named after him and how much they adored him. This is several years after that, and his fame and popularity would only have grown. And I would think that Mazer piloting the ship would have only been small news compared where Ender would be ending up. Everyone would have been so caught up in the war being over that they probably wouldn't remember what happened to Mazer, especially since they had believed him to be dead (or at least out of the picture) for so many years. His name would still be remembered though, so it would still be dangerous to mention it.
Posts: 1547 | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
I disagree. Yes, Ender's instant fame far outweighed Mazer's lasting fame, as did Ender's eventual lasting fame, but there would have been a short time between Ender's instant and lasting fame where the instant fame was getting old and the lasting fame hadn't set in.
For example: 9/11. I'd say for about a year after 9/11, there was the instant, fresh memory of it. It was horrible, it was painful, but most of all, it was new. 9/11 will go down in history as an event that we must not forget, but right now, it's not history yet. The memory isn't still fresh in our minds - if we tried to keep it fresh, we would get very sick of it.
I think that's kind of the attitude of the general population at this point in Enderverse History. Ender was so amazing, the savior of humanity, but now there are wars going on and we haven't had a chance to look back on what was accomplished.
Then again, I could be completely wrong
Not to change the subject or anything... how far into the future, from the destruction of the Bugger homeworld, are we at the beginning of SotG? I'm thinking 8-10 years, but that's pure speculation based off how old I'm guessing Bean to be (16-18).
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posted
I think it might be slightly less than that, but I'm not sure. I'm not necessarily saying that Ender's name would be more recognizable (though I think it might be simply because he's someone who was around in the lifetime of these people. He isn't ancient history.) than Mazer's, so much as I'm trying to say that people would have been much more caught up in the fact that Ender saved the world, and the battle was taking place and won while everyone else was still waiting for it to come here to fully absorb the news that Mazer was still alive and had taken off on a colony ship. That information would have been overshadowed by all of the stuff the IF had been keeping from everyone for all those years.
Posts: 1547 | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
I see what you're saying, Midnight Blue. I guess I was responding more to the "possibly the largest Legend of the time" comment. I won't bother arguing terminology, but Mazer's and Ender's status were definitely different at the time.
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posted
In any case I don't think that the type of people who would kill an I.F. agent would really care if that agent happens to be a legend. When you're ruthless and willing to kill, you take out anyone who's in your way. It might even get one bragging rights: "Hey, everybody! You'll never guess who I killed today..."
Posts: 1569 | Registered: Dec 2004
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quote: "Hey, everybody! You'll never guess who I killed today..."
You do have a point there. Although I have a feeling that if the killer started bragging, he/she would be much more likely to be found out and arrested. The IF has a tendency to see and hear (or at least find out about) just about everything.
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New Year's Eve and the family is gathered in the old family home. Neo-Dragon is sitting on his rocking chair, the rocking mechanism set to low so he doesn't lose his balance. Several young children are gathered around.
"Fetch me the book;" Neo-Dragon's voice is raspy with age, but still strong with pride. One of the great-grandchildren runs to the shelf where, under a protective case, a hard-cover book is displayed. She carefully brings the book over and lays it gently in his lap. The pages are slightly yellowed with age, and the book falls open to a page near the start of the first chapter.
"Can I read it this time?" The youngest grandchild can't actually read yet, but the knows the words from hearing them each New Years Eve. She leans over Grampa Neo's shoulder and recites,
"'Everyone knows that you piloted the first colony ship,' said Han Tzu.
'We lied,' said Mazer Rackham."
Grampa Neo's body shook with silent laughter. "Them's my words," he chortled.
"Did you write them, Grampa," one of the kids asked, his voice filled with awe.
"No, Grampa didn't write them. But I found a mistake in the manuscript before it was even published, and this was put in to fix it." He closed the book, leaned back in the chair and closed his eyes. It had been a good life. He had righted a wrong and no one could ever take that away from him.
Posts: 258 | Registered: Jun 1999
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That was good, straight from the Lord of the Rings neh? (if you read the books) The scene where Frodo and Sam were talking about who would be remembered as the hero.
Aside from that I actually have the original manuscipt somewhere for that chapter cuz I had to go somewhere so I printed it all out. Its in my basement. And yeah I think I noticed it too but I just didn't really care.
Posts: 1567 | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
WOW. It sounds so wonderful to be able to help an author like this... I would like to have read the chapters as soon as they were available and have seen the flaw too !
Posts: 3526 | Registered: Oct 2001
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posted
OK... Perhaps I'm missing something, but in Chapter 3 when Peter is talking to Alai, somehow Peter ends up standing around the time Petra "insults" the Caliph. My impression while reading the passage was that Peter was sitting the whole time. There is the one spot where he threatens to stand, but I understood the text to indicate that Petra was able to keep him seated. Very nitpicky, I know, but I assume that's one of the reasons it's posted for...
Posts: 9 | Registered: Jan 2005
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posted
I got that feeling to about the sitting and standing thing.
The three chapters are great though, if the rest of the book is like that it might be one of Card's best in my opinion.
Posts: 17 | Registered: Jan 2005
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quote: "Everyone knows that you piloted the first colony ship," said Han Tzu.
"We lied," said Mazer Rackham.
Since Mazer told Han NOT to say his name, i.e. they might be watched/recorded etc... Why on earth would Han then let anyone know who he is talking to by asking such a dumb question?
I think this would be better handled by Han's own internal thought process, after all he's a pretty smart guy.
Now that I think about it, Mazer wouldn't have said anything about the Jeesh if he was concerned, he'd find some weird way to trigger the memory for Han while not revealing anything to anyone who might be listening.
Weee... nitpicking can be fun.
Just my 2 cents
Posts: 7 | Registered: Jan 2005
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posted
I figure it had to be a quick fix, because there was a deadline for when it was going to the publishers.
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quote:Since Mazer told Han NOT to say his name, i.e. they might be watched/recorded etc... Why on earth would Han then let anyone know who he is talking to by asking such a dumb question?
I said pretty much the same thing above. Han doesn't say his name, but identifies him nonetheless. Ah well, I guess it doesn't really matter that much in the grand scheme of things. As long as it's made clear that he wasn't on the colony ship, that fixes the major inconsistency. I wonder if Mazer will appear again later in the book and explain in greater detail why they lied. We've discussed plenty of possible reasons in this thread.
Posts: 1569 | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
When I read the first 3 chapters, I thought it made perfect sense that Mazer wasn't actually on the ship. After all, why would you have the top 2 military commanders on the same ship? i.e. The ship was sabotaged, something broke, a meteor hit it, problems on the new world, etc. In addition, if another threat had surfaced, neither Ender or Mazer would be able to get back in time to assist Earth.
One final thought is pure deception. No matter how sound the enemy's plan is, it would remain unworkable as they wouldn't have been able to account for having Mazer in reserve. And even if there is any sort of discrepency about Mazer being on the planet later on, it could be explained by Mazer taking another ship and arrive a few months/years later.
Jesse
P.S. Wasn't Ender around 25 years old when he found the Hive Queen? If so, then how could he have turned 21 in Investment Counselor?
Posts: 175 | Registered: Jan 2005
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posted
Actually, he turned 20 in Investment Counselor. And the simple answer is, I don't think OSC is that good with his character's ages.
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