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Author Topic: Industrial over heating of the world
Sid Meier
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Okay, I read the foundation series a long time ago (a year or so give and take) and the Galactic Empire decayed and collapsed just like the Roman Empire, however one of the reasons providing by one of the characters is that the whole Empire over heated itself because too many of their worlds choose one of two paths agricultural which led eventually to poverty or industrial which about 90% of the worlds in Galactic Empire choosed. So, for us out of approx. 140 nations I would say that about 30 are industrial lets count:

Italy
Spain
France
Germany
Russia
Ukraine
Belorus
Low Countries
England
Ireland
China
Japan
South Africa
Israel
USA
Canada
Greece
Turkey
Taiwan
*********
special cases
India
Pakistan

Est. 20 Nations, 30 if we include the break away republics. These are nations that are "industralized" and could be considered "have nations" thirty out of a hundred and forty! the rest are a combination of poor/agricultural nations with a low standard of living, high mortality rates, no healthcare, wellfare etc. Usually this is cured by industrializing, becuase if you can make products you can sell those for money that adds to your nations GNP which goes to founding an education system, and other government services. Thus if the only way to be a have nation is to industrialize then of course to be wealthy just about every nation has to do it. Okay, thats that but who does an industrial nation sel its products to? Poor nations and agricultural nations in order to purchase food products and whatever natural resource that agri. nation happens to be unable to use. So now we have a contradiction, if every nation industrializes how do we feed ourselves? Who do we sell our products too if other nations make that product too? Where do we get natural resources if every other nation uses it too! So you see what happens now? According to the rules of supply and demand if there is an over production of a product then prices will drop. However if there is a scarcity of a product then prices will go up. Now I must say that I am somewhat ignorant of the market system but didnt something like this happen to Germany after WWI? If this situation comes about will there be a great crash that shatters the market system forever? I don't know, as I said I am ingorant of the market system past a few basic principals. Now, logically I see two possible solutions
1: Colonize other planets; yes I know that is cheating and not entirely certain of whether or not if it is convenient for us. But is just about the only long-term solution.

2: A centralized economic and government system where some places are industrial and other places are agricultural and calculated to provide balances and designed to be adaptable to changing circumstances such as population increase. This only delays the inevitable but at leats buys us time until we can get off world. This can be somewhat supplimented with a lunar/martian colony and orbital space colonies like in the various Gundam series's, underground cities, hydroponics, orbital microwave eceivers to provide alternative power, nuclear fusion, the works. Thats the only solutions I ee to a coming possible crises. Give me some feedback here.

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GoatRider
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Are you the game developer Sid Meier? If so, I LOVE YOUR GAMES!

EDIT: Never mind, I looked at your profile, no you aren't. Why are you impersonating a famous game developer?

One of the big problems I see in a lot of science fiction is that they assume planets are like countries, with a single government. I would think they would quickly fragment into at least one country per continent, most likely a lot more. So, it's not like the "planet" chooses to industrialize. Some of the countries on the planet may choose to industrialize independently of the others. The ratio would probably change planet to planet, and perhaps the overall ratio might be 30 out of every 140 countries, like it is on earth. And perhaps on 10 percent of the planets, no countries industrialize?

[ January 01, 2005, 12:32 PM: Message edited by: GoatRider ]

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Sid Meier
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On the first note, I happen to want to be a game developer and I'm taking programming. Do you perhaps have CIV3? If yes, do younotice how the AI doesn't seem at all bright? They're still building spearmen when I have tanks.

On the other note; it seems an enevitability that almost every region eventually begins the prosess of manufacturing development for the attainment of wealth, as for the thought of each planet as a country well... lets look at the United States doesn't it seem to just be a collection of countries? Just about every country has its own provincialness and having a galactic wide empire of millions of such worlds is simple a much bigger model of the same thing. I'll post more later.

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TomDavidson
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"If yes, do younotice how the AI doesn't seem at all bright? They're still building spearmen when I have tanks."

Perhaps you should try a higher difficulty setting, "Sid." [Smile]

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ArCHeR
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Well, that doesn't matter. All you have to do is sell another nation a map for 2222222 gold per turn... or is it 3333333? I can't remember. But a glitch makes them take anything they want for that amount, and then you can just hurry everything when you get the right government... [Wink]

Oh wait... this thread is about global warming?

Hehehehe...

Has anyone read "State of Fear" yet? I haven't, but I disagree with what it's supposed to be saying. Not that I disagree with the science, I disagree with the attitude. "It's not really that big of a problem, guys. Calm down."

We should still be protecting the environment in every way we can. I don't care if global warming isn't happening, I just want us to research new technology so we don't have to burn half the middle east to drive to burger king...

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TomDavidson
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It's a little known fact that we managed to beat the Russians to the moon by using a cheat code. [Smile]

[ January 02, 2005, 01:08 PM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]

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Morbo
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Aren't there about 190 countries, not 140? Too lazy to check.

For one thing, contries aren't either industrialized or agricultural. The US is heavily industrialized yet also supplies an overabudance of food and is a net exporter of food, ASFAIK. The same would probably hold for planets, shipping food over intersteller distances, even assuming FTL space travel, would probably be prohibitively expensive. So most planets, or at least solar systems, would have to combine industry with agriculture, in some form.

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timothytheenchanter
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problem with AI, in civ 3, like most turn based strategy you will have people who are willing to micromanage everything(ultimately builds better empires faster, but takes a lot of real life time.) and you have people who like to let the game go, and not micromanage anything just win in as short of real life time as possible. the computer AI of course can micromanage to it's heart desire it provides no noticable delay. for the AI to maximize everything as you or I would, and there is no such thing as a computer not having patience....

because of these the programmer who writes the AI needs to make it challenging to the micromanager, but possible for the nonmicromanager.

oh yeah global warming is bad.

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Sid Meier
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::EDIT:: I put the post into paragraph form due to complaints.

The problem is that they can build tanks. Just that they dont quite bother to obtain the nessasary resources or to build enough tanks. CIV3 while a neat game in concept but freaking annoying in practice. ex: when your cities that you just conquered seceed back to your enemy taking all of your troops with them!

Back to original topic: We're not talking about global warming as serious a problem as it is. We're talking about civ3 and about the possibility of calamity if too many nations industrialize. If there are 190 nations rather then 140 its even worse. in 1939 Germany, Frace, Russia, UK, China, Japan, USA, and Italy pretty much held the worlds manufacturing capability per person now there are many more nations that have their own factories or are building them. While it is true that some industrialized countries are net exporters such as China and the USA that doesn't mean much if countries barely able to feed themselves and sell food on the world market make their own factories thus bringing peasants away from the countryside, thus a reduction in food production then that nation have to import its food out of dozens of such nations what happens if they all industrialize inorder to get "wealth" as they see it?

Look at the United Kingdom they have to practically import all of their food and the same could happen to other net food exporter countries. And also Japan is also a heavily industrialized nation that has ot import vast quantities of food while it is true that they held a large population top begin with the point still stands that plenty of nations could become little Japans and Englands if they chase after long/short term industrial goals in order to obtain a western standard of living which seems to be the norm for most third world countries.

Now I will admit that idustrialization esp. in the case of the United States has vastly increaed food production but there is a point where the technical skills asociated with industrialization can no longer aid it as such skills are more and more needed for industry as often the case with Russia. And yes I must say that very few nations actually "choose" their economic path of being either an agrarian society or an industrial one based say on the western model in fact it is hardly a choice at all it is of my opinion that every nation will eventually go under its own "Industrial Revolution" in order to raise living standards (assuming peaceful local stability) or to better prepare to defend their said borders.

Also, the production of manufactured goods tends to as stated earlier generate a profit for the nation a profit which is taxable and directable to investment and government spending on a welfare state. This sets off a cycle where the citizens experiancing confort for the first time will demand more effort by the government to supply more such conforts thus more money will be invested to industrial and technological development and aside from civil war, foreign occupation, natural desaster (or most likely in the 3rd world), Islamic Jihad will continue until such nation can nolonger industrialize on a national scale but rather an individual capitalistic basis.

What I am worried about is that too many nations will industrialize too much, so that we can nolonger feed ourselves sufficiently, because of a massive chrash that may result from an over supply of cheap manufacotred goods or the contradiction of a shotage of resoucres needed for the productions and transportation of such products and the wars that follow inorder to gain control of such products. In my first post I gave a VERY short list of solutions whcih is very much only one solution adopt a semi-communist/capitalist system and institute birth control laws until we can get off planet. I know it sounds like Ender's Game but that is just one of many books i've read that gave me these ideas.

[ January 04, 2005, 10:07 AM: Message edited by: Sid Meier ]

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ArCHeR
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Ugh... dude... paragraphs... please... [Angst]
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mr_porteiro_head
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I sound like a snob when I say this, but I don't even bother reading posts formatted like that.
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Sid Meier
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whats wrong with the format? Is it not good enough for you because it isn't 100% essay form?
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mr_porteiro_head
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You've changed the format since I made that post.

The formatting I was talking about was the lack of paragraph breaks.

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ArCHeR
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He might have done it in response to my post, which was no where near as condescending as yours.
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kaioshin00
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quote:
only one solution adopt a semi-communist/capitalist system and institute birth control laws until we can get off planet.
From what I know, population increase rates are only high in the 3rd world countries. Increasing education in these areas could be the solution.

Spell check is your friend [Wink]

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Sid Meier
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Is it? I'm just being thorough to appear as an intellectual by making few spelling mistakes. Please remember that most agrarian societies have high birth rates usually as a responce to high yields of food. ex: India, China. Also both China and India are spending vast sums of money to achieve a "green revolution" where scientific study will give them the ability to dramatically increase food yields per hecter.

India so far has proven itslef as being somewhat more successful in this regard but that is due to help from western nations and the fact that it didn't have its whole economic plan skewed for about a whole generation as a result of a "Cultural Revolution"

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Sid Meier
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Man I really have to play Civ2 or Civ3 against someone online, just no fun playing against a comp there's no role playing involved.
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ArCHeR
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You really want sit there and play an online game? The thought just makes my butt hurt...

And my theory is that it's not the class of the country (3rd world no longer being in use by professionals. It's now more developed countries, or MDCs and less developed countries, or LDCs). Population growth, I think, has more to do with arranged marriage. A culture of arranged marriage almost garrauntees everyone having children.

[ January 05, 2005, 12:58 PM: Message edited by: ArCHeR ]

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Sid Meier
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Interesting, I didn't really know the terminology has changed. But also remember it is not just a matter of population, you have a country lets call it Bohemia (we had a terrorist simulation project in my global issues class and thats what we named our country) Bohemia is a nation that is now rising from obscurity in international trade as it is now under the enlightened government of President Yzak Iesu who has begun selling food stocks to various nations in return for machine tools, machines, electric generators and technical personel to help industrialize his nation.

5 years later:
Bohemia has instituted a 4 year plan in the hope of industrializing itself sufficiently within 20 years. Schools, colleges, universities have been opened and staffed by proffesionals from other nations, monopolies are being granted to various corporations on the agreement that they will construct factories, manufacotring plants, dams, et cetera on schedual.

4 years later:
The first 4 year plan is finished and modifications for the next 4YP are finished using factories constructed Bohemia is now making our own tools and machine parts, dams have been built and the foundations for an extensive railway network have been laid. Food production has increased 400% thanks to investment into tractors, fertilizers and cheap transportation to booming cities and newly constructed trading ports.

4 years later: (12 years remaining)
second 4YP has finished and 3rd 4YP has begun industrial output has increased 350%, coal output 600%, iron ore output 500% etc. Bohemia now produces all of its own machine parts, tractors, machines, and other things needed for industrialization construction of shipyards has begun inorder to make our own merchant fleet and navy rather then buy ships from other powers. Investment from other nations continues to increase in exchange for cheap foodstuffs and luxury foods (wines, olive oil, etc).

4 years later: (8 years remaing)
shipyards have been constructed allowing for the Bohemian Merchant Navy and the Bohemian Defence Fleet construction of merhcant ships and National Navy Ships have begun; Factories are being opened left and right by investors from abroad and from people within Bohemia. some 2000 miles of railway tracks have been laid allowing the swift transportation of people, goods, and machines.

The educational systemcontinues to improve and is turning out excellent and well trained technicians who in R&D are coming up with products that are "Bohemian" rather then copies of foreign models. The population is swelling esp. in cities as more people are leaving the countryside to look for work in factories and hopeing to have their children better educated in the city education system. Selling their plot of land wealthy land owners and state farming corporations hoping to utilize more efficient methods of farming.

4 Years later (4 years remaining)
Bohemia has industrialized itself ahead of schedual and is producing good quality products and has a respectible merchant fleet.

However the population has reached a consumption point where not all food is availiable from Bohemian farms alone so diplomatic efforts are being made to aquire food from less developed nations. The construction of a navy has excellorated to defend Bohemian waters and interests from other developed nations who now seem a threat to Bohemian soverighty and an army is being trained and officered and being armed from weapons produced from Bohemian factories and developed in B. Universities.

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Sid Meier
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I post more later becuase now I am hungry so I'm off to lunch.
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TomDavidson
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Sid, it's worth noting that, to my knowledge, NO project called an X Year Plan has EVER met its goals. And yet you're assuming that Bohemia is going to actually succeed with each one?

See, Sid, that only works in building sims. In the real world, you can't micromanage people that effectively.

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Sid Meier
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I'm just giving an example I'm not done yet; and besides its only a simulation and obviously other nations wont do as well or will do things differently, the simulation is still incomplete.
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Sid Meier
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Now, as far as we can tell Bohemia's 4 year plans have done excellently (note that I never posted what those plans ARE so we dont know if each 4YP has actually succeeded we only know that Bohemia is progresing at a steedy clip).

Conclusion: We know that once bohemia has reached a degree of self sufficientcy industrially becuase now Bohemia needs to import food to suppliment its diet and various minerals and other raw materials from other countries just as under developed as Bohemia used to be.

Another result of Industrialization in this world is the need to maintain an army and navy to defend the interests of the nation in order to secure the needed resources for industrialization and to maintain high industrial output.

Because President Yzak and his succesors have done everything in a peaceful and diplomatic way the purpose of his Self-Defence Forces is just that; Self Defence and as a deterrent to other nations who may wish to co-opt Bohemia's soverignty or to meddle in Bohemia's economic interests.

Problems: The main problem is that even in this fictional world is this simulation 100% accurate; being based off of the Imperialism model of economic development it can be somewhat accurate assuming that climate and political conditions are good enough over a long period of time to be good for economic development.

[ January 06, 2005, 01:12 PM: Message edited by: Sid Meier ]

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Bowler
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I'll keep it short, since I already knocked the power cord to the computer loose once while trying to reply to you.

Your post is obviously a hypothetical situation designed to promote a socialist/communist agenda. Although morally I have nothing against socialism, in some ways it is even morally superior if practiced in a perfect form, the problem is that in practice it simply does not work. Although we with out American arrogance assume that where the Russians failed, the Germans failed, and EVERY OTHER country that has tried this system has failed (or stagnant economy and declining level of civilization show that it is failing), we will succeed because we are America and we are better and smarter than every one else. This is false.

You are assuming that a world government will be able to manage this without corruption. However, every lesson learned from history and from current events shows that people are corrupt. In fact, the wonderful United Nations (sarcasm intended) very own leader Kofi Anon (or whatever his name is, its inconsequential) has been plaqued by the oil for food scandal as well as giving UN contracts--i.e. money--to his son.

Secondary problem: Assumption that the greenhouse effect is fact, not hypothesis that is probably false. There's enough literature out there for you to find out the other side of the story besides what the media loves to report, so I won't waste people's time posting my version of their arguments.

So although your situation is interesting food for thought, I'd guess that it was given to you by a somewhat liberal political science professor trying to indoctrinate you into his/her world view.

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Sid Meier
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Woah, knocked the power cord? Sorry about that. But where do you get the idea that I am putting forward a communist/socialist worldview? I'm just putting food for though from what i got from Isaac Asimov's foundation books and adapted it to our world. What happens if every country in our world tries to industrialize itself? the "over heating" part is what Hari Seldon called what was happening to the galactic Empire becuase too many worlds were industrialized.

And Bohemia is not Communist it is a country with a similar economic model to Japan but with an adequate supply of raw materials. It is the theoritical model of a nation that wishes to industrialize suffieciantly and succeeds. It is the essentially what almost every underdeveloped country wishes to be, it just happens to beleive that a 4 year plan wa sthe best at acheiving longterm goals. And to a degree Stalin's 5 Year Plans DID succeed in getting Russia industrially ready to face Germany even if there military wasn't.

Next, the world governemnt part is just the only solution i can think of that can ally our planet to remain confortable to out 6,700,000,000+ People. Because I was only dealing with Industrialization and its effect on the world market I found it fit not to confuse the issue with global warming. Which I do perceive as a real threat.

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Soara
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Maybe Asimov isn't always God.

Just a thought.

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ArCHeR
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What!? But he invented psychohistory and the positronic brain! Who else could have done that!?
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Sid Meier
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Exactly, but I didn't take the thought or idea as it is Asimov didn't even say anyhting regarding Earth in that context I'm just taking soemthing I've heard and adapting it to a similar situation. In fact I don't really understand why you said "maybew Asimov isn't a god" what does that have to do with what I said/wrote?
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TomDavidson
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"But he invented psychohistory and the positronic brain! Who else could have done that!?"

Given that no one yet has, that's actually an excellent proof of the point. [Smile]

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Bowler
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quote:
In my first post I gave a VERY short list of solutions whcih is very much only one solution adopt a semi-communist/capitalist system and institute birth control laws until we can get off planet. I know it sounds like Ender's Game but that is just one of many books i've read that gave me these ideas.
Well, when I read your original post thats where I could see that the only logical outcome of your hypothetical situation would be socialism in one of its applications. The above post of yours simply states what you either forgot you said or don't want to admit that you said.

But who gets to choose in this future world of yours? Who determines who must be a farmer and who gets to be a doctor? How is this determined? Who decides? Aptitude tests? Heriditary? Government need based? Is it in our genes? Brings back memories of that awful movie Gattaca.

Since it would be 'unfair' to assign people occupations though which monetary and classes are usually defined, then all classes must be made equal. This can only be achieved through socialism. Thus, following your original line of thought to the conclusion, we are left with a socialist world government as I stated in your first post.

However, although I do not agree with your ends, you and others in this discussion do offer great ideas. Energy concerns are of course paramount. We are more likely to run out of fossil fuels before we run out of space. Balanced care for the environment is important as well--balancing man's need for resources and expansion against negative impact on the earth. So although I doubt your goal of a government that is able to run the world in anything resembling a good fashion is realizable, (or maybe I'm just to cynical to trust man) your motives are obviously good, and this is turning into an interesting discussion.

Thanks for the post [Smile]

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Sid Meier
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I didn't mean "pure socialist/communist" only something combining the best out of socialism and capitalism. After one the mian drawbacks in communism citing Russia as an example is the lack of flexibility while capitalism in the american example does possess it. However, capitalism tends to lead to a wide gap between rich and poor and landowners and poor tenet farmers.

So how is this prevented aside from Communism? Something like it but not quite like it. Are there any countries with a capitalist system yet manage to have some control over their economy to allow longterm beneficial planning? Yes. Japan.

Japans extraordinary success after the aftermath of WWII is largely due to the large degree of organization they put into their buisnesses and economy, essentially they formed a government branch that could be comparrable to the reforms made by Moltke in the formation of a Prussian General Staff prior to the Franco-Prussian war of 1870. So a world government can using Japans example still maintain a high degree of industiral growth and flexibility yet still control the results as to not damage the greator whole.

But we still end up with poor people and rich people. While the division isnt as pronounced in Japan as it is in the US how do you solve this? I came up with an idea a while ago that might help, though many breakthroughs in cybenetics will still be needed. I'm thinking that the development of robots to automate farms, factories and mines (the fields which promise a low income most often) and because aside from the small amount of humans to moniter the various devises and what not the vast lower class will no longer be needed. So where does it go?

My idea goes on from here towards a more socialist/Canadian/Chinese solution; Free education up to the college level and greater access to private schools and technical college could allow for a far higher proportion of technicians, programmers, engineers, et cetera. And also a far greater amount of effort on the states behalf to moniter and give aid to struggling students after all aren't most people poor because they don't have the choice of having a good education? Or even if they are getting one the system is so indifferent, beurocratic, and *gasp* incompetant/impotent that they are unable to help students who could've been model and contributing members of society otherwise. Thus I'm not nessasarily putting forward Communism or Capitalism as being the perfect economic and political systems for world government but more of a technocracy where education and technology and the willingnness to work for it is more important then money or idealogical goals.

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Bowler
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Your example of Japan shows what I always assumed was common knowledge: nothing brings an entire society quicker to a higher standard of living than capitalism. Class distinctions? Yes we have them. But not near to the degree as communist countries. There is the powerful class (government 'service') and the class who has no power (everyone else). Haves and have-nots. With the power comes the money, the perks, etc. There is no greater distinction between classes than what naturally arises out of a socialist system.

So I see two main problems with the socialist system:
1) People at the top assume that is it's their inherent right to have more.

2) Most people will not contribute if it doesn't benefit them.

I have seen number one first hand, and number two through classmates.
I lived in Taiwan for a few years. I spoke with several people who were from China, as well as reading articles on the ruling class there. Anyone who doesn't believe that they have it better than anyone else in the country is blind or fooling themselves.

On a slight tangent, the Chinese/Taiwan history is fascinating. You can see first hand the difference that a capitalist democratic society has over a communist society. A generation ago, the Chinese people were one. Then came a revolution and exile to Taiwan. Two countries, same people, same thousands of years of history and culture. Taiwan went on to have one of the highest standards of living in Asia (second only to Japan). The main difference is that one country, the one with the most natural resources and power, chose a path to communism. Taiwan chose to model the American system. I encourage you to read more, this is a just a brief outline.

As for #2, ask anyone who has lived in England about the 'dole' (welfare). Talk with people who are on it. Ask them why they don't get education, find a better job, better their situation. Their reply? "Why should I when the government gives me this for nothing?"

You've read Animal Farm, I assume. Although I guess it could be an indictment of the communist system, I believe it it more of an story about human nature.

If you actually believe that the Leftist movement in this country is actually for the improvement of society (remember reform does not equal progress and progress does not good if not in the right direction), then this discussion isn't worth our time. It has always just been a bid for power by them, instituting a socialist system with them at the top of the food chain. They will use any race or class of people as a stepping stone to reach their goal...race, sexual orientation, wealth, etc. However, by the same token I realize that the Right also has their best interests at heart in maintaining a system with corporations at the top. The main reason I buy into the latter system more than the former is that under the current system people have a real chance to go somewhere, whereas under the former people do not.

Of course I'm biased like everyone else. I'm a poor boy from Idaho. My father was a local police officer, and my mother raised us eight children on less per year than I make now as a college student for my wife and I. I don't know how far we were below the level of poverty but I'm definately what you would call lower class. However, through hard work and sacrifice of temporary things, I'm not finishing up my last semester of electrical engineering degree at a university. And America has long had this tradition of hard work (read about social attitudes toward work in the 1930s during the New Deals, or decades earlier, even to the founding of the country).

My point is, I believe more than the system, it is important that people have the will to work hard and intelligently. And in this imperfect world, people work hard when it rewards themselves and their family (contribution to the gene pool)...an evolutionist and behavior psychologist would have no problem understanding this motivation. So now to my conclusion, it may surprise you. I agree that a form of socialism (for lack of a better word) is the best system. However, it will not happen the way people are. It assumes that people individually and as a whole are naturally unselfish, alturistic, and responsible--an assumption that several thousand years of human history has disproved time and again. Or, if you buy into a genetic argument (such as homosexuals are the way they are because their genes made them that way and they can't help it), then we people have absolutely no chance of overcoming millions of years of genetic programming to achieve this goal. Oh, I bet they hate that line of thought.

I am Mormon. Even my own religion has tried this system--a people united in faith, moral understanding and ideals, and with every good intention that you and I have listed. They failed, for the same reasons I listed above. So while I will agree with you that ideally, theoretically this is a good solution, I'm afraid it is a practical impossibility.

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Sid Meier
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I really do have to read more into the history of China and Taiwan. Most of my knowledge of Japan comes from "The Way of the Daimyo" and "The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers: 1500-2000" (very interesting to read). And yes I do hope for some utopian star trek federation community. But my "technocracy" doesn't do away with money, it doesn't set up a party that controlls everything. I hope for a democratic government that can keep humanity developing economically, technologically, and spiritually. People will still work to make money but, their will be a greater effort by the government to bring about the education of its citizens hopefully beginning at an earlier age. I don't even nessasarily want a new world order if it can be avoided, only for the economy to be controlled in such a way so that we don't destroy ourselves through war because if we start running out of resources there will be war to possess whats left of it, I don't want to have my grand children face poverty not because of anything they did but because we ran out of room to live confortably in, and finally I dont want any Orwellian totalitarian government rising to power over billions of people because humanity or rather our leaders were so stupid and shortsighted that we had no other alternative at the last moment.

-"From this day forward no human shall make war on any other human, no one is to consort with alien powers, and no terran agency shall conspire against this new beginning and to all the enemies of Humanity Do not bar our way because we shall win through.... no matter the cost" Emperor Mengsk I of the Terran Dominion.

[ January 15, 2005, 05:33 PM: Message edited by: Sid Meier ]

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Bowler
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*Thumbs up* Yeah, I was thinking about it this morning. Actually if the people are alturistic and the government non-corrupt, I guess capitalism would be just as good a system, or any sort of system between the two would be fine. Its all on the shoulders of the people.
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Sid Meier
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Thats why I suspect that given enough time the internet/arpanet will as the telegraph/telephone before it could the next step for democratic freedom.
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