posted
Remember in Speaker for the Dead when Ender speaks the life of Novihas dead husband, publically revealing (no less in a devout catholic community) that she had been unfaithful and a number of, er, other things...
I always thought it would have been much more realistic for Ender to end up with Eva rather then her mother, yes I know there was rather a large real-time age gap but since when has that stopped anyone? Eva instantly related to Ender (she would be in awe of his wisdom and sensativity) and she instantly had a pleasant disposition towards him (he would find her sweet and remarkable).
I find it unlikely that someone would come to love someone instantly after that person has publically humilated them.
Your thoughts please? (Please don't flame me, it's just an idea!)
Posts: 95 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
People have mentioned in another thread that it was Novinha's immense pain, and her "broken soul" that attracted Ender to Novinha. Although Ela was for all purposes friendlier, nicer, and more in tune with Ender, she didn't have the weight of guilt and past experience that Ender and Novinha had. This is also perhaps why Ender became very close to Miro???
However, I'm definitely not in the Novinha fan club. I think she's a great CHARACTER, but I'm still rather bemused as to whether she loved Ender or not. It's obvious that Ender loves her - he basically dies for her in the end - but the Ender/Novinha love story seems to have taken place off in the background somewhere between "Speaker" and "Xenocide".
Posts: 66 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
It's an interesting thought - but I saw Ela's (I assume that's who you mean) love of Ender to be more of a respect for a father that she never truly had, and Ender's love for her as the loyal daughter of two parent's who truly didn't deserve any such loyalty.
As for Novinha falling in love with Ender after her public humiliation, I have two points. First, one could say that she fell in love with the Speaker for the Dead as a child when she read the Hive Queen and the Hegemon and dreamed of writing a book for the piggies. Obviously, Novinha would see the qualities of the Speaker for the Dead in Andrew Wiggin, seeing as they are the same person. So in a way, she had fallen in love with him PRIOR to the speaking. This would be compounded by the later revelation that Ender was in fact the original Speaker.
Second, consider Novinha's love of guilt. She revels in it, and the pain that it causes. It's something of a masicist (sp?) lifestyle. In this sense, a part of her love for Ender could come directly because he exposed her guilt to everyone she knew.
But the final point is that Novinha somehow saw that Ender felt far more guilt than she ever had, that he felt he had done something far worse than any of Novinha's sins. When he was orating, she had a sense that Ender was not judging her. Later, she discovers that Ender is the Xenocide and understands the breadth of Ender's guilt. This final revelation demonstrates to her that Ender is in fact human, and therefore, that much more loveable.
Just some thoughts.
I know I already said "final thought" but I just thought of something else. Novinha clearly saw how effective Ender was as a father figure for her children, seeing a bit of Libo in Ender. This has to have been a big deal as well.
Posts: 1099 | Registered: Apr 2005
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Pardon me while my mind reels at the thought of an intimate relationship between the two of them.
Ender, being the wise, compassionate figure that he is, would have realized how damaging such a relationship could be probably before the thought of it came into his conscious awareness. Much better that he be a father figure, and a friend, and a colleague. Much better that his love for her contain no trace of desire. Much, much better. Much better that he love her mother and show her how a decent man cares for his wife, be an example of a standard she hold men in her life to, that he help heal the damage wrought by growing up in an abusive home by helping her see what love should look like.
A romance between the two of them could contain very little but pain and guilt.
Anyways, I don't care what other people think. Within SftD, I thought Novinha and Ender were perfect for one another. I tend to discount Xen and CotM when I think of them, though. Novinha of Speaker and Novinha of Xen & CotM just don't seem like the same characters to me. *shrugs*
Posts: 99 | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
hmmmm I really enjoyed BrandoCommandos thread, and Starlookers last point is very interesting...
...The idea of Enders love for Ela as a "loyal daughter" is clearly the one that OSC wished to put forward, but during that scene when he arrives at their meeting in a boat and they speak intimately. I can realistically imagine that spawning feelings of attraction.
As to the matter of Ela being only around 18... ...Well, a lot of girls are really attracted to older men, and infact particularly girls that were brought up lacking an admirable father figure.
An interesting debate.
Posts: 95 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:As to the matter of Ela being only around 18... ...Well, a lot of girls are really attracted to older men, and infact particularly girls that were brought up lacking an admirable father figure.
Yes, and a lot of girls in school have feelings of attraction towards their teachers. A lot of clients have feelings of attraction towrads their counselors. Sometimes it goes vice versa, as well.
However, a teacher or counselor who in any way acted on those feelings no matter what their reasoning would be behaving extremely and extraordinarily badly. Such a relationship is extremely selfish on the part of the person who holds the power in that relationship -- teacher or counselor in my examples. Ender's relationship with Ela was such that I think having it occur romantically would do similar damage. She called him as a minister, he's vastly older than she in both age and experience, she admires him to an extraordinary degree AND she's at a very vulnerable point in her life. It could never be a partnership, the power within that relationship would be skewed horribly.
I really think that I see him in an authority position over her similar to teacher/student or counselor/client and that's why the idea shocks me so badly. I despise people who take advantage of their position and the trust of others to foster that kind of relationship. That's why I can't imagine Ender being attracted to her or, if he was, ever acting on those feelings in even the slightest way.
Could it happen? Sure. But it would be incredibly selfish of Ender to pursue that. Especially given his level of empathy. Given his level of empathy, he'd probably note the feelings of attraction, note their source, and realize that fostering that kind of a relationship could do significant damage to her. Again, i think it's better he be her male role model, so she can heal and then find a relationship more suitable.
Also, isn't this supposed to be the novel wherein Ender grows up? In which case, why on EARTH would OSC give him a midlife crisis of the ugly stereotypical sort and have him chase after a vulnerable teenager?
Let him marry an adult (however twisted her life might be) who is his equal in mental fortitude (however twisted THAT might be). He's ready to assume an adult role. If you believe that having a mature relationship is part of that adult role, then the relationship should be one in which the participants are not BLATANTLY ill-suited for each other. He needed both the husband and the father role with someone he understood, and who understood him (as someone posted above, they're connected by both insisting on carrying the guilt of all humanity on their shoulders). He also needed a purpose, a role he could fill. And, look, here's a ready made family. Here's children who already see him as the father they never had.
If none of this convinces you, I have one more point to make. And it is this. Novinha would not disappear if Ender married Ela. On the contrary, in some ways she would be more prominent than ever.
In other words, could you imagine having Novinha as your mother-in-law? Why would you wish that on Ender?
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