posted
In September 24 1862 Abraham Lincoln ordered Habeas Corpus. For those who do not know what that act ill quickly explain. During the civil war some groups of people (mostly the northern democrats "Copperheads") were saying things that were jeperdizing what the union and confederate south were fighting for. So this act was bascally the Patriot Act of the late 1800's. Anyone could be arrested without real proof, and trial didnt have to be hasty. (link if you really want to read the whole thing)
So what happend in result of that act, things were controlled and safe, and the union was able to finish the war that everyone wanted to end. History repeats itself folks, the P-Act may be making alot of people uncomfortable, but it'll work as it did almost 200 some odd years ago. So for all of those who are complaining, it will end a war that most people want to end.
Posts: 262 | Registered: Jan 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
It's also important to remember that Lincoln's actions were bitterly opposed by many but the most radical in the Republican Party, and a vigorous opposition continued to hound the government to make sure these actions were repealed instead of becoming a permanent part of American life.
Emergencies have a way of not ending. Especially in our present circumstance, when the emergency of terrorism is probably not going to end in any dramatic, clear, FINAL way like the defeat of Nazi Germany or the collapse and surrender of the armies of the South in the Civil War.
So while there may be aspects of the Patriot Act that we need for our national survival, there are certainly parts that are NOT crucial; moreover, we must not allow ourselves to get used to these limitations on our freedom, for they will not merely be maintained, they will be extended until they apply in cases that we won't like at all.
Just as people trying to protect and extend individual rights can go so far they endanger or harm the majority of socieety, so also abridgment of those rights that is designed to save the majority can, in the long run, lead to despotism.
And do keep in mind, those who are content with the Patriot Act primarily because you trust the government now wielding those powers: The guys you consider 'good' won't always be in power, and any precedent you set can be used by those who will regard YOU as a danger to the safety of the American people.
Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty ...
Posts: 2005 | Registered: Jul 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
supporting the patriot act is just plain naieve, I can't think of any other reason why anyone would.
Posts: 95 | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Antony, then find out some reasons why people would support it and then weigh it against your current opinion. Then you have a real opinion.
Posts: 102 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Well, even though it is discriminating to some, our government just wants to be able to arrest a terro cell or somen along the line without having to get a warrent makes things move faster than having to sit around and gather evidence thats obvious. Personally i know that Patriot is harmfull to people and is totally against our constitional rights, but theirs alot of those kinds of things nowadays.
Posts: 262 | Registered: Jan 2005
| IP: Logged |
So if you believe this, and also believe that the Patriot Act is an infringement on your liberty, why aren't you taking up arms against your government? Conversely, if you don't think the Patriot Act infringes your liberty, why did you post this? If you're going to post hyperbole, why not be prepared to put your body where your mouth is?
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Anyone can contact their congressman, but people are just too lazy, but some are willing to stand up, but all they can do is write and talk. Taking arms against our country is ridiculously stupid, anyone who would even try would just be shot dead. Just a little tip, were not in times where our government is weak.
Posts: 262 | Registered: Jan 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Right, I agree that you would lose; but comrade Meier stated a preference for death over the loss of liberty, and you agreed. Were you serious, or just spouting slogans?
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Well, yes, that's one reason "a well-regulated militia" is just a touch out of date, but it's not actually relevant to whether Bob prefers death to oppression. "Give me liberty or give me death" is a proud boast, but has the disadvantage that a well-armed oppressor might take you at your word. I'm curious as to whether comrades SM and TDP mean what they say.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Well, I was going to say something fairly obvious about a war on terror not having a definite ending point and being somewhat nebulous by definition, but then one of the other posters said something much more eloquently than I would... Oh, it's Card. <turns purple> I'm going to shut up now.
Posts: 3826 | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Okay I am Canadian and live in Canada so the Patriot Act doesn't affect. However I am worried about any possibly right wing fascist regime ever seizing power in the Pink House (It was pink before we burned it down ) Since such a regime would envitably bully the people who live next door. As for what the slogan means to me it is a revolutionary slogan supported the democratic rights of the oppressed people's of the world against their capitalist overlords.
Posts: 1567 | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
You know that in the Revolutionary War a group of soldiers were going to take over certain cities in canada because the British were using um, but the group was attacked before they could make there journey from New York
Posts: 262 | Registered: Jan 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
...? By group of soldiers do you mean a group as in a dozen of soldiers or do you mean a few regiments?
Posts: 1567 | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
im pretty sure it was a force to be recond with, its just they were attacked before they could move. Thats what my social studies teach told me.
Posts: 262 | Registered: Jan 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I agree with "Give me Liberty or give me death". I'm glad that I have an excuse not to take up arms, because my city (along with hundreds of others) has decided to ignore the Patriot Act.
So in a way, Americans all over the place HAVE gone into an open revolt against the federal government which passed the Patriot Act. Just because there aren't guns blazing doesn't mean we aren't rebelling against them.
Posts: 14 | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Gosu: Antony, then find out some reasons why people would support it and then weigh it against your current opinion. Then you have a real opinion.
Thankyou for the excellent response. I think the main reason is fear, but I find this level of fear disproportionate and we should be more fearful of the consequences of giving away liberty in an act that is highly unlikely to be reversed, and is infact liable to be a prelude to other acts which are a greater infringement on our civil liberties.
Posts: 95 | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Some people say that "the end justifies the means" but I prefer to think that it is the means that sets the standards for living. sometimes things may be effective, but require sacrifices that many are not willing to make.
this next part is sort of off topic, but...
It blows me away that when Janet Jackson's boob popped out during the super bowl, people threw fits that has led to much stronger censorship over the media.... and yet the same people who are throwing fits about this are opposed to the idea that some middle eastern women have the belief that they must keep their faces covered at all times.
some religions want nipple coverage, some want nose coverage, and others are content to walk around in their birthday suits... I don't get it.
Posts: 104 | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged |
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
) Since such a regime would envitably bully the people who live next door. As for what the slogan means to me it is a revolutionary slogan supported the democratic rights of the oppressed people's of the world against their capitalist overlords.
