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Hello everyone. I was just wondering if anyone noticed that when Alvin is talking about the nature of atoms that it sounds alot like philotes in the endeverse. If this has already been mentioned, my appolgies for bringing it up again. Also, are there any other similarities that anyone has noticed?
Posts: 36 | Registered: May 2005
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Sure. The philotes and the atoms sound similar not because the books happen in the same universe but rather because that's how Card, by virtue of his faith, sees the world (with a little dash of fiction, of course).
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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Gee, and here I distinctly remember coming up with the philotes concept out of my own head when I was sixteen and studying geometry.
Posts: 2005 | Registered: Jul 1999
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Seriously? Then you got lucky being born into a religion that reflects that particular approach to physics. *grin* I've always thought of the philotes as an attempt to explain the physical mechanisms of soul-binding, and consequently very similar to the "atoms" in Alvin's world: a way for a persuasive and moral God to maintain power (if not infinite power) over a dynamic world. I'm rather surprised to hear this wasn't a conscious choice; I always mention this as one of my favorite examples of subtle religious allegory, as opposed to the tasteless and tacky stuff in C.S. Lewis.
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Why geometry, by the way? I could see quantum theory giving birth to a kind of philotic theory -- in fact, it often has -- but I'm not sure I can see the same logical process in geometry. What were the "bonds" you were studying?
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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You can read an awful lot of Mormon doctrine and not find much that is reminiscent of those ideas.
While yes, many of those ideas do exist in Mormonism, not only are they not central to our faith, but I would say that only a small fraction of Mormons are even familiar with them. And of those of us that are, it's an even smaller percentage that really believes that the universe works that way.
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Good point. Is there a better term than "deep doctrine" to use for common doctrinal speculations?
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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Thanks for all the replies everyone. This thoroughly answered my question. But still, has anyone noticed any other similarities?
Posts: 36 | Registered: May 2005
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Tom, it's often been referred to as "deep doctrine", but I don't like that terms because many such things aren't properly "doctrine" at all. I have also heard the word "Mysteries" used to describe it, but I don't like that either, since there is another LDS meaning for the word "mysteries" that I like much better. Speculations is more accurate, but you're right in observing that it doesn't make a good name for the phenomenon.
Personally, I don't know a better name. I know names for related ideas, such as Faith-Promoting Rumors, Gospel Hobbies, etc.
Posts: 1652 | Registered: Aug 2003
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Tom, you're not the only one who thought that was the source. I'm Mormon myself and I immediately picked up on the similarities.
Posts: 134 | Registered: Mar 2004
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The first time a Mormon explained some of the speculation on spirit to me, I thought, "Wow. Just like philotes."
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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I always thought that concept was really really cool. This makes me want to research the Morman doctrine now.
Posts: 2867 | Registered: May 2005
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Why geometry, by the way? I could see quantum theory giving birth to a kind of philotic theory -- in fact, it often has -- but I'm not sure I can see the same logical process in geometry. What were the "bonds" you were studying?
Care to elaborate on this? Perhaps being a physicist has jaded me for I cannot see any way to get a connection between two macroscopic objects, ie people, out of quantum theory. The first thing that comes to mind is obviously entanglement because it can link two quantum states. Entanglement certainly wouldn't work because any pair of entangled quantum states would suffer decoherence almost immediately due to their interaction with the rest of the persons' bodies. But I suppose since nobody really understands entaglement beyond that between a small number of states, that it is possible for every part of a person's physical consciousness, or soul if you prefer, to become so entangled with that of another that decoherence is extremely slow.
Interesting. Any other takes on the links between QM and some kind of philotic theory?
Posts: 17 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Orson Scott Card: Gee, and here I distinctly remember coming up with the philotes concept out of my own head when I was sixteen and studying geometry.
Proof that OSC is as much of a genius as any of the modern (ie, rationalists). Even Leibniz and his monades con't touch philotes. (I mean this completely sincerely)
Posts: 13 | Registered: May 2005
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Ok, OSC, don't drop the ball on this one! I am interested in how you came to the conclusion with geometry. On the other hand, I will bet a dime and a quater that your Mormon beliefs at least help you steamline your theories on the subject.
Posts: 2207 | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:Originally posted by King's Man: Hello everyone. I was just wondering if anyone noticed that when Alvin is talking about the nature of atoms that it sounds alot like philotes in the endeverse. If this has already been mentioned, my appolgies for bringing it up again. Also, are there any other similarities that anyone has noticed?
How about the part where Alvin makes a "string" connection to Arthur? That sounds exactly like philotes.
Posts: 326 | Registered: Apr 2005
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I think we are connected to everyone in our lives in the real world. Have you ever been in a large group of people and some how just known where in the crowd someone you care about was. I know we have all spent time searching through crowds for people but I mean on a more unconcouncious level where you werent even looking for them but somehow you new right where to look. Just one example.
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*grin* I've always thought of the philotes as an attempt to explain the physical mechanisms of soul-binding, and consequently very similar to the "atoms" in Alvin's world: a way for a persuasive and moral God to maintain power (if not infinite power) over a dynamic world. I'm rather surprised to hear this wasn't a conscious choice; I always mention this as one of my favorite examples of subtle religious allegory, as opposed to the tasteless and tacky stuff in C.S. Lewis.
