posted
Obviously the Ender Universe has two different tracks that it follows: I'll call them the Xenocide and Shadow series for my purposes.
For those who don't know what I am talking about:
Xenocide Series: Ender's Game (It fits better here), Speaker of the Dead, Xenocide, Children of the Mind
Shadow Series: Ender's Shadow, Shadow of the Hedgemon, Shadow Puppets, Shadow of the Giant
I myself believe that the Xenocide Series, the one that center's around Ender and his space fairing, is better written and plotted than than Shadow series, which focuses rather on Earth and its enterance into the "Hedgemon era". They are both well written in terms of obvious thought imput and content.
It is predicatable that OSC would want to start a new series track. I have some ideas.
The Shadow series left many loose ends. What happened to Bean and the children he brought up? He shouldn't die now that he's in space.(Though thinking about it: How old would he be?) Also what happens to his ninth child?
What would be truly interesting is if the two series, Xenocide and Shadow, merge into a new one. One in which happens after Children of The Mind, and allows Bean or his children to meet up with Peter/Ender and the rest of Luisitania, after their journey in space. Many of us would definatly wish for Bean and Ender/Peter to meet again and learn of each other's accomplishmets. We'd also like to see a new saga incorperating the dealings with the descolana race and the formation of a multi-speices confedercy. It'll tie up all the loose ends and make for a supremely interesting plot.
We don't need an intermediatary between EG and the rest of the XS. One is already written in First Meetings. I think writing such an intermediatary would be a huge waste of time, and the fans would be extremely disappointed.
Maybe I am wrong. I'm just a little kid who can't spell and just started this series 4 days ago.
edit: I commend OSC for his excellent knowledge, and his use of politics, charactor development, history, cultural understanding, and science-fiction application, to create a great series for everybody to read.
Posts: 27 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
I agree, it is my great hope that the two will come together at some point. I'm not sure that the Ender boks - the Xenocide series - are better and more sophisticated. Ender's Shadow was terrific. But I agree that some of the following books lack the emotional content of the Ender books. They are more of the "tell it" than "show it" school. But still a good read.
Posts: 39 | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
Besides the Rackham book, OSC is writing two more planned Ender/Shadow series books. One will take place way before Speaker, but after EG. The other would be post CotM, and tie the Shadow, and what you call 'Xenocide' series together. More info can be found in this thread, and yet more info can be derived from using the websites search . Which is always a great place to start.
P.S. I'm not sure if you knew this or not, as I didn't quite 100% understand the jist of your post.
Posts: 879 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
I don't think there'll be a Rackham book. Maybe someday. There's a Mazer story that will be in the first issue of my new online magazine when it is launched.
I'm sorry to hear that my writing ability is going downhill, so the books I wrote twenty years ago are better written than the ones I've been writing recently.
Or maybe they're different kinds of books, and are therefore written differently, and you prefer one kind of book over the other....
Posts: 2005 | Registered: Jul 1999
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posted
wait, wait, wait, you're having a magazine come out? Something in the light of an Asimov-ish sci-fi type of thing? Where people can submit their work and all that?
Posts: 340 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
OSC, your original Ender Quartet, while still having a plot, where much more "talky" and philisophical. You've acknowledged it yourself about Xenocide and CotM. More people are often thinking about things, than actually doing things.
I think you've become more skilled at writing action plots, since then. But they definitely aren't as philsophical. I enjoy reading the Giant series, but it doesn't make me chew ideas over in my brain and go "hmmm" like the old ones. I'd say the same about the Alvin series too.
So I would agree, you are writing different kinds of books now. I miss the depth in the old ones. (Though I haven't read Magic Street yet.)
I haven't read all your books, due to a quirk of mine, where I prefer delayed gratification because the anticipation of reading a book, causes me to savor it more.
However, uniformly when I pick up your "older" works, like Hart's Hope, or Wyrms, I read it and am mesmerized and am left going. "Wow, that was deep" at the end, and pondering moral and philsophical questions. It hasn't happened to me with your newer works. I'm left going, oh, that's the rest of the story... ok, wonder where it's going from here.
For a perfect example, see what I've inferred from SotG while reading maybe two comments from yourself on this side about the following books... I was avoiding spoilers before I read SotG. I could be completely wrong, in where it is leading, but my brain ended the book thinking about plots and stragegies, not philosophy and morality.
On the other hand, it's possible any writer, only has so many "deep" books in them, and you probably don't have a lot of deliberate control over it. Maybe you've explored everything deep that you can express in writing already.
So if the plot-driven stories are the books you want to write, rather than philosophy-driven stories, it's obviously your perogative. You still write a darn good story, and I'll still buy them.
But, I think the audience expectation entirely hinges on whether the first OSC book that they enjoyed was philosophy based, or action based. I personally tend to fall into the "philosophy" category. However, I've realized that I can't impose that expectation on every book you write and am able to enjoy the action ones as well, since I always enjoy a good story. But the action based books aren't as viscerally or emotionally fulfilling for me.
posted
I'm not a very good swimmer, so I books that aren't deep (/stupid joke). Actually I enjoy them for different reasons. The shadow books were the more "fun" to read, while the Xenocide books made you think. To me, it would seem difficult to bridge the to series because of the differences in writing styles, but I'm sure it would still be great.
Posts: 60 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
I dont like the idea of making a book that takes place after CotM. I think that the Xen and Shadow series should not emerge into one. I think CotM ended the Xen series perfectly. I would hate to see it ruined by another novel. I really enjoy the shadow series but do not want it to intertwine with the Xen series. Some things need to come to an end. Ender in Exile still will be ok because it is a prequel to SOTD. Although only Mr. Card could prove me wrong and make a fantastic "bridge novel" that emproves the Xen series.
Posts: 86 | Registered: Jun 2005
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I would really want to find out about what happens with the descolada race. There are still loose ends that need to be tied. I really loved the charactor Ender and would be glad to see him (as Peter) continue his journey with the Hive Queen and Jane.
CotM's ending seemed a bit rushed, and I would have liked to see Scott expand his ideas in the series, maybe giving a feeling of satifaction, stability, and hope in the end.
As for Xen merging with Shadow, it maybe a naive idea, but I don't think it requires a lot of Deus Ex Machina to make it belivable, esp to people who have read both series profusely. I think people would like to see Bean and Ender together again. Thats why I was I think that Card made a great decision in deciding to write the Shadows in Flight book. I just hope it comes out within the next four years.
Card, your ability to write novels has not deproved. As you said, the two series are different: Xen being mostly about discovery and diplomacy while Shadow is competition, politics, and war. Your ideas are (how to say it): WOW ^_^.
Nothing could have prepared me for your great incorperation of anomonous essay writing and politics. Fans of Romance of the Three Kingdoms would have to read this. Such a great display of order, chaos, and balence. OMGoodness, children inspiring others, looking at their fears and greed, while using their anger to manipulate them. Pretty deep if you ask me.
Aslo Shadow of the Flight, I think, should have Ender's name on It. Maybe Ender's Shadow of the Flight or Shadow of Enders' Flight. Add some background info, making the reader not have to read all the previous books to get it (one of the reasons the Xen/Speaker books were unpopular). However, one should get the reader intrested enough so that they would be FORCED to read all the previous books in order to get the full satifaction intended.Maybe I am asking for a miracle here.
posted
Wait, your not writing a book about the first attack from Mazers point of view? *baffled look on face*
Posts: 879 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
I hope I'm not alone here, but the books I'd most like to see published in the Ender vein are The Hive Queen and the Hegemon.
Posts: 4313 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:Originally posted by erosomniac: I hope I'm not alone here, but the books I'd most like to see published in the Ender vein are The Hive Queen and the Hegemon.
That would actually be pretty cool. Posts: 3 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
I also agree that a book between the shadows series and speaker is not required. We already know what happens at the end of it all, that little Achilles doesn't take over the universe and that Ender continue to do his work with the Hive Queen, so where is the excitment? We all know that joke about "what's the point of seeing Titanic when you know the ship is gonna drown?", although it can be a great short story it won't be as intresting as a novel that happens after Children of the mind can be simply because we don't know how things turns out. why not put the Achilles child then? or a descendend of him or a secret society who worship Achilles' blood line or whatever. I enjoyed reading the stories in First Meetings but it was hard to care about the characters because I knew in advance what's gonna happen to them all and can only assume that most of the crowed who will read Ender in Exile will also know the Speaker Series pretty well. My humble opinion is that the battle schoolers did there job well, why not let them retire when there are so many other exciting plot lines to explore?
Posts: 34 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
Here's my 2 cents... not that anyone asked for it but here it is just the same.
Both series are well written as I feel all Card's books have been but to me, the Bean series was much more satisfying in terms of finishing what Ender started. The Speaker series is so far in the future and there is so little to connect it to Ender's Game that I never really got as connected with the people of Lusitania and really just want the piggies to turn the new Peter and Val into trees.
A book about what happens to Bean and his kids (including the missing one) will be what I anticipate the most.
posted
The point of seeing "Titanic" isn't to watch the ship go down: it's to better understand and appreciate how it got that way, and how the people on board felt at the time.
Similarly, even though we know how the Ender/Shadow plotlines come out prior to Speaker for the Dead, some still want to hear about it: we've grown to care about these characters, and their perspectives are interesting to hear. To write a story, you need a beginning, a middle, and an end. We have the beginning and end...but, with the middle, it's not a story.
I realize I'm rambling. And, it's true, the novel after Children of the Mind WILL be more thrilling, because there'll be the element of surprise. Still, though, I've come to care about Bean and Ender, almost as I care for those I know personally...I'd be interested in hearing their perspective on events in a pre-Speaker book.
Posts: 11 | Registered: Mar 2005
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Whats the point of seeing the Titanic when you know the ship's going to go down?
Only we don't know how things will turn out. Scott has yet to leave us with a satifying ending; he keeps making us want more. Of course doing that with a good book is very hard. I've only seen one such example and that's Snow In August.
Personally, I would like to see the "ending" instead of a intermediatary because we can pretty much guess the events that lead up to Speaker.
Posts: 27 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by erosomniac: I hope I'm not alone here, but the books I'd most like to see published in the Ender vein are The Hive Queen and the Hegemon.
I prefer to think of those as The Speaker series and The Shadow series respectively. They do nearly fit the bill of what those books were to be about.
Posts: 48 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
I dont know if I'd want to read The Hive Queen and The Hedgemon. When you look at it, everyone has a different view on whats in them really, though we all know the basis, but if its different than whats expected it could hurt our views on the books all together.
I also don't know whether we should all find out completely about Peter and the Hive Queen, and the Piggies, some mysterys are best left Kept.
But I would love to have a book about how Ender met Jane and how he came to trust her, as I don't think Ender, whos very smart, would trust a computerised program right of the bat.
Posts: 2 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Akire M.: But I would love to have a book about how Ender met Jane and how he came to trust her, as I don't think Ender, whos very smart, would trust a computerised program right of the bat.
Check out the book First Meetings in The Enderverse].
Posts: 48 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
Some random thoughts on possible culminating novels....
I would like the novel that concludes both of these series to center around an identity conflict within Ender, which can reflect a comparison of the two series. Ender's character is like the Speaker series, understanding and tragic - aligned with the new Buggers. Peter's character is like the Shadow series, coldly practical and political - aligned with Starways Congress. Not only can the final book reflect both series, but the final character of Ender/Peter can reflect both character traits - or a conflict between the two.
Also, I think it would be wonderfully ironic if mankind was (or nearly was) exterminated by the Descoladores in the final novel, just as mankind did to the Buggers. That would allow the conclusion to harken back to the beginning of the novel, and the xenocide theme. Or, even better, if it were up to Ender/Peter to give a final "Speaking" to the Descoladores on mankind's behalf, to justify not destroying it. Or something like that. (But that's me - I'm a big fan of the end of the world as a plot device. )
Mostly, I'd just like to see it tie together the series, rather than leave it as a jumble of separate novels that happen to come one after another. I'm not sure OSC approaches his series in that way though - they tend to be open-ended and meandering, more like real life. I prefer heavier symmetry, to an extent.
Posts: 8120 | Registered: Jul 2000
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posted
I registered just so I could say this-- I'm most interested in the descoladores--not just who they are, but interested in getting to know them in the way we got to know the pequeninos (whether they're friendly or not). I've read all of the Ender/Shadow books except SOTG, and after a second reading of some, I feel like SFTD is the best (the most deeply moving, the most changing). I'd love to see what happens if OSC takes that probing ability and applies it to the new species--and slows down the pace, develops the relationships to the extent they're developed in SFTD. That's what I love about SFTD--that incredible dynamic in the relationships, particularly with the pequeninos, the sudden understandings and the pain and the learning. There's a part I could read over and over again--from the part when the pequeninos realize what crying is through the visit to the mothertree. Every time, my heart hurts and I cry, and it makes me love people better. Emily
Posts: 2 | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
The story I'd most like to read is whatever story OSC is inspired to write.
I'm not saying we shouldn't share our ideas. Just the opposite. One of these ideas might be the spark that ignites a conflagration of inspiration.
...
While the character I'm most invested in is Bean, it seems to me that his story is over (other than it's continuance through his children.)
I have been thinking about another character since reading First Meetings ... Graff. Sure, other characters could play a deep game, but the depth of Graff's game spanned decades. (And while it might disappoint me, both objectively and subjectively, it wouldn't suprise me if Graff was somehow connected to Volescu.) But I don't know if there's a story there.
Posts: 12 | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
As a new member, and recent follower of the Ender experience, I am wondering the thoughts of more experienced fans on the best sequence to experience the stories.
posted
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but I remember OSC saying (either here or in the B&N class) that there probably wouldn't be any descolada stories, because OSC doesn't care enough about the descolada to write it. The question of whether they're ramen or varelse is immaterial as far as he's concerned.
He may clarify or rebut this if he sees it though, because he's contrary and doesn't like to be misquoted.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote:Originally posted by trucker1954: As a new member, and recent follower of the Ender experience, I am wondering the thoughts of more experienced fans on the best sequence to experience the stories.
With the search feature, use the word "Order" and specify "Subject Only" to find various threads discussing the reading sequence.
Posts: 973 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
I'm referencing my own thread . There are some spoilers but it's now impossible to maintan a completely accurate chronology in the Enderverse.
I think read Ender's game and Ender's Shadow. Then decide whether you want to follow Ender in the distant philosophical future or follow Bean. It might actually be useful to read the short stories like "First Meetings" next for background and then pick which path you want to follow. It's ok to like one track more than the other because they are very different kinds of books.
Has Scott decided to to write novel or ust nothing about the virus species. Its really a shame if he did. Bridging the novels would have been a really interesting read.
Posts: 27 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote: I'm sorry to hear that my writing ability is going downhill, so the books I wrote twenty years ago are better written than the ones I've been writing recently.
-Originally posted by Orson Scott Card.
Don't worry your new books are just as good as the old ones! Crystal City was awesome and same with the shadow series. (I have been to busy to read magic street sadly, rented it from the library but im just too busy) Posts: 832 | Registered: Jan 2005
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posted
I think the only book that I didn't like of Card's was Xenocide because it seemed to drag itself on and on. I'm almost positive that the book could have been at least a hundred pages less and still would have been great if not better. This however is my opinion. Other than that I think all his books (old and new) are equally great. I also believe that his writing hasn't changed much but rather his personal views have (which has an effect on an authors works). Some may like it, some may not. Most won't even notice it. Another reason some may like Ender's half of the series could be because in each of the books, something drastic always happened at the end that was utterly yet not completely unexpected. In Speaker it was all the truths at the speaking AND the truths of the Piggies. Xenocide had the inside-outside miracle (and the mystery of Path). CotM had Jane fall into a human body and finally the fleet stopped. What I'm saying is there hasn't been very many big sci-fi surprises in Bean's story because it's more political based. And some readers may miss the surprisingly unexpected endings. Or just not like political warfare. But I find that Card's writing is no less great than it was in his earlier publications.
Posts: 112 | Registered: Jun 2004
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