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Author Topic: Fahrenheit
Anomander Rake
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Hello.

I have found myself in the habit of reading all of Mr. Card's essays as they are posted on the website, and as I watched Fahrenheit 9/11 a few days ago it struck me that Mr. Card - with the attitude he expresses in his political essays - MUST have commented on that movie somewhere. Anybody knows where I might find an essay in which this is mentioned? Or has/would Mr. Card made/make a short statement on this board?

Regards,
Kasper Madsen, Denmark

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Sid Meier
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Indeed, I'll be looking forward to such an essay as well.
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El JT de Spang
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I didn't find a review of Fahrenheit 9/11 but check here for some of OSC's thoughts about Michael Moore (hint: he doesn't seem to like him very much).

I'll keep looking.

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RynoW1
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Does anyone else think its sad that a great book like Fahrenheit 451 will now be linked with a 21st century propaganda film?

Anyway, I think from the link above you could probably figure out how he felt about the movie.

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El JT de Spang
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I think the book will still be read and talked about long after that rabid propaganda has died the slow and painful death it deserves.

[ July 27, 2005, 05:16 PM: Message edited by: El JT de Spang ]

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GaalD
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I don't think I've ever seen the movie, or if I have I don't remember it. What was the propaganda about?
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TL
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It was a documentary. And, I thought, a brilliant one. A fitting counter to the propaganda the maniacs on the right have been shoving down our throats for so long.

Not a perfect film, but entertaining, touching, and enlightening, certainly. Moore deserves all the kudos in the world for being willing to stand up and say something unpopular because he believes in a cause.

Too often these days people are unwilling to stand up for what they believe.

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RynoW1
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Well it takes some truth mingles it with some blatant lies and then uses emotion to push his views down your throat. Movies like this ruin intelligent debate because it treats fiction as fact. Then you have kool-aid drinkers all over this earth using it as gospel without looking at what is real and what is not about it.

I don’t really want to start a debate in here…because I’m sure we all could until the cows come home. (Do people still use this expression?:-)) I just thought that it was sad that the partial name and idea for the book was used for a movie like this.

Any movie that Cuba puts on its state run TV and our enemies use against us can't be good.

[ July 27, 2005, 08:26 PM: Message edited by: RynoW1 ]

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TL
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quote:
Any movie that Cuba puts on its state run TV and our enemies use against us can't be good.
What a completely bizarre thing to say, speaking of drinking the Kool-Aid.

I, too, do not wish to start a debate.

But not making room for dissenting political opinion because it is dangerous to our country and our enemies will use it against us is ridiculous.

This is America. Sometimes I wonder if certain people still realize that.

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GaalD
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[Embarrassed] Ok, I made a huge mistake. I know what Fahrenheit 911 is. I was thinking they made a propaganda movie out of the book Fahrenheit 451. I'm officially confused. [Confused] [Embarrassed] [Wall Bash]
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SpEeDMaSTeR
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They simply linked the titles, but other than that the book and movie are pretty much unrelated. I also find it a shame that the classic book is now related to something like this. I'd be willing to bet that more people died on 9/11/2001 from smoking alone then from the terrorist acts, but I fail to see any movies against that. Ahh the corruption. =/
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TL
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Is that a joke? There has been a major anti-smoking television campaign going on for years. Cigarettes are taxed to the hilt. Smoking has been outlawed inside public buildings in many states. Why would someone need to make a movie to document the dangers of smoking? Everyone already knows the dangers of smoking, it's public health priority #1 in this country.
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SpEeDMaSTeR
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The taxes on ciggarettes are easily negated, simply by buying in bulk in tax-free areas or by the store actually paying for it. I work in a convenience store, and prices of ciggarettes just dropped roughly a dollar because our store chain (CVS) is paying the difference. The only television campaign that I have ever seen against smoking are the "Truth" commercials, which I must admit are very convincing.

And "Super Size Me" degrades the lifestyle of those who I believe are in the category of "Public Health Priority #1."

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TL
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Degrades the lifestyle -- of who? Fat people?
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GaalD
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Poor people who eat at McDonalds because they can't afford anything else? [Dont Know]
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SpEeDMaSTeR
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Yes, it makes them look foolish to live such a life. Degrade possibly wasn't the right word, maybe ridicule is more fitting.

Jaime, fast food is far more expensive then many other foods. Canned goods can be bought for much cheaper, though they do require somewhere to cook them, so I can understand the paradox that results if people are truly homeless.

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TL
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Well, I am both poor and fat and I can tell you that eating from the grocery store is much cheaper than eating at McDonald's. Furthermore, it was not in the slightest bit degrading, nor intended to be. Not every fat person eats at McDonald's, you know.

It just so happens that people who eat there a lot tend to be fat. Because the food is unbelievably bad for you. Which is what the documentary was about. Not fat people.

And I loved this movie too, btw.

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Sid Meier
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Obessity should be North America's priority, people who smoke are just dumb or weak willed, people who eat too much are either weak willed or don't know what they're eating.
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GaalD
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Sid, you may want to alter your comments about smokers. I'm sure there are at least a couple smokers on Hatrack.
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Sid Meier
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Okay I was being overly crude sorry, I know, Peer preussures, relieves anxiety, stress relief but seriously its RADIATION POISONING!
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Sid Meier
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And there are those who are making serious efforts to quite who much be admired who their determination but just can't manage to break the habit, they have my respect. Just those who smoke with no care for the consequences of their actions who I have a certain amount of disrespect for, though its is dispite my above posts trivial, I do have friends who are such smokers but I still ocnsider them friends I pity them for smoking but I ignore it generally I'll make one little comment whenever it comes up but after that I let it drop. I don't go door to door and force people to stop smoking.
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erosomniac
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Michael Moore was to politics what Daniel Quinn is to environmentalist writing: hugely biased, loud and geared toward the lowest common denominator.

quote:
I do have friends who are such smokers but I still ocnsider them friends I pity them for smoking
I am a smoker, and the friends that pity me for it aren't my friends for long. Pity is such a disgusting thing to level at another human being.
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TL
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quote:
people who eat too much are either weak willed or don't know what they're eating.
See, now that is degrading to fat people.
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Anomander Rake
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Oh well, uhh... Back to the Moore-thing. First of all, I know of course that a very large part of the documentary is either manipulated or complete bullsh*t.

But what about the parts of it that are NOT bullsh*t - few and far between as they may be?

Although, being a resident of Denmark and not the US, I would be considered rather ignorant with regard to President Bush's complete political agenda etc. I do believe that the documentary contains quite a few startling scenes, that could not have been manipulated so much as to not contain even the slightest fragment of truth.

For one thing, G.W. Bush's statements. I'm not an American, but I know enough English to be able to tell that he is a horrible orator. Sometimes, just listening to his answers makes one laugh - and of course the particular scenes have been picked out carefully and all, I don't see him on TV all the time after all like I guess Americans do, so I don't know whether or not he speaks like this always - but it IS Bush saying these things.

"I urge Governments of all nations to unite to catch these Terrorist Killers. Thank you. Now watch this drive!"

I mean, what is that? If the Prime Minister of Denmark said something like that, Hell would be loose.

And the parts about the Bin Laden family being flown out of the country, the Florida vote-thing, the father-son relationship etc. etc.

I think there are numerous things about it that can't just be ignored. Even though there are also many things that should be.

I guess my point is just that you can't merely discard the whole movie as propaganda and then ignore the parts of it that actually touch something real as well.

What do you think?

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TL
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Well, I love the movie, but can't really argue that it is not propaganda. Not because the facts presented are fictitous (they're not) but because of the way they're presented. There is no doubt that Michael Moore has a political point of view and that he is trying to sway anyone who watches his film to his way of thinking. Of course he can choose a) to include only the most-damaging facts, or b) to present a balanced viewpoint.

The movie is not balanced.

But that doesn't mean the things he says are a lie. Moore comes from a background of journalism so he knows enough to check his facts. He was a newspaper editor before putting everything he owned and everything he was on the line to make 'Roger and Me'. He had no way of knowing that he would become a successful filmmaker and an important voice in the American political arena (he is important because he is listened-to and trusted by millions of people). He did not make 'Roger and Me' because there was any chance he could become rich and famous from it. He made it because he cared deeply about an injustice that no one else seemed to care about. And making a documentary was the only way he could think to do anything about it.

It was an act of courage and he is to be admired for it.

His films are infused with the political viewpoints that he, himself, believes. How could they not be? He makes movies to showcase things he believes are wrong in this society. THat is what he *does*. It's his whole reason for making documentaries.

I agree with many (not all) of his views.

I agree that there is the edge of propaganda in his movies but with Fox News, Rush Limbaugh, Michael Savage, etc, we get 48 hours of propaganda from the other side of the political fight every single day.

I think the views of people like Michael Moore are *badly* needed to present the American public with another side of the story.

And I happen to love the guy, what can I say?

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DarkKnight
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Most of his facts are some of the worst misrepresentations that anyone can tell. There is some truth in what Moore says, but it is not the actual truth. Just like the above quote "I urge Governments of all nations to unite to catch these Terrorist Killers. Thank you. Now watch this drive!" is exactly what he said, but it is also very misleading. If we looked at what people said after the 'sound bite' I'm sure there would be tons of quotes just like that one from all politicians.
The Bin Laden family and their supposed flight to freedom is very misleading. Although Moore doesn't outright lie, he makes it seem as though Bush personally flew the Bin Laden's out of the country while all other planes were still grounded which is completely untrue.
I think Moore could do much better he simply used his skills to portray the truth, not just twist things to meet his point of view

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Anomander Rake
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DarkKnight: I'm not just talking about Moore's grudge on Bush - after all the movie isn't only about the President - therefore, it doesn't matter to me whether or not he flew them out on a private jet or not, its the fact that it *happened* that startles me.

And it is the fact that Moore portrays incidents such as these (which I wouldn't have known of otherwise) that makes me like Fahrenheit 9/11 - despite the 'propaganda'.

And I see your point on the quote, but I still think that the attitude displayed in that passage is careless. The President must represent the Government and be its 'face' to the world, and mixing golf with the war on terror is, I think, not a very good idea.

And its not just that qoute of course, it is forgivable, but the documentary is stuffed with the likenesses thereof.

But hey, as I mentioned I don't really know that much about his politics, since I'm not American, but I just don't like the man. (Not saying I like that Kerry-guy either).

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TL
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You know, I have to disagree with both points you made in that post.

quote:
"I urge Governments of all nations to unite to catch these Terrorist Killers. Thank you. Now watch this drive!" is exactly what he said, but it is also very misleading. If we looked at what people said after the 'sound bite' I'm sure there would be tons of quotes just like that one from all politicians.
First, that is complete speculation. You have no basis for that claim. Second, the President didn't have to say that; by doing so he made his message into a joke. There is nothing misleading about showing it. Total insincerity on the part of the President in that moment. Moore doesn't have to do anything *extra* to make the audience think it's ridiculous. Because it is.

quote:
he makes it seem as though Bush personally flew the Bin Laden's out of the country while all other planes were still grounded which is completely untrue.
Well, of course it is completely untrue. But it is also completely untrue that Moore makes that claim in his film. You are making something up and then arguing the opposite point. Where in the *world* does Michael Moore say that the President personally flew the Bin Ladens out of the country?

That is just silly.

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Blackthorne
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<quote>I don’t really want to start a debate in here...</quote>
<quote>I, too, do not wish to start a debate.</quote>
You are both just lying to yourselves.

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RynoW1
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mooooo! The cows are home. No debate.
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Hitoshi
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I haven't had the chance to watch either "Fahrenheit 9/11" or "Bowling for Columbine," but I found this link about Bowling to be most interesting.
Truth about Bowling

Take it as you will. =)

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Promethius
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Moore edits his footage in a way that is not truthful. This was one of the big problems with Bowling for Columbine, he edited the Heston interview and made him look like an idiot. That beginning scene with the make up and the comb licking was just a low blow, every person who goes on TV gets make up put on.

Also in Fahrenheit the part about the wounded soldier who talked about his amputated legs feeling like they were in a vice. That soldier never agreed to be on tape and even spoke out against Moores film. In fact he didnt lose his legs in Iraq he lost them while doing maintenance in AMERICA. Moore led the viewer to believe the injuries occurred in Iraq.

This film was nothing but garbage.

"Where in the *world* does Michael Moore say that the President personally flew the Bin Ladens out of the country?"

He says it in his film. He doesnt say Bush personally took the controls of the plane and flew the Bin Ladens out of the country, but he does say that Bush and his officials authorized it. Somewhere on the internet there was a paper written about the 60 something lies of Fahrenheit 9/11.

All of that being said I think the highlight of the film was when Bush says, "I like to dig through the soil lookin for bugs." Either that or the part where his dog found a, "Armadilla"

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Daric
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I actually feel proud knowing that I am from the fattest city in the world just because I'd rather not be in the 2nd fattest city in the world. If you're gonna do something at least be the best at it.
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Sid Meier
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lol, I can't help myself some times, certain food sjust taste too good but at least I hold weight well being tall.
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DarkKnight
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I would also suggest watching both Fahrenheit 911 and Fahrenhype 911 to see both sides.
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sands
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quote:
Originally posted by Anomander Rake:

"I urge Governments of all nations to unite to catch these Terrorist Killers. Thank you. Now watch this drive!"

i have not seen the movie but the last sentence was probably not directed towards the camera man. the "thank you" should tell you that he is done talking about that subject and wants the camera man to go away. i don't think it should matter whether he is good at speaking as long as he makes sensible decisions
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sands
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quote:
Originally posted by Anomander Rake:

"I urge Governments of all nations to unite to catch these Terrorist Killers. Thank you. Now watch this drive!"

i have not seen the movie but the last sentence was probably not directed towards the camera man. the "thank you" should tell you that he is done talking about that subject and wants the camera man to go away. i don't think it should matter whether he is good at speaking as long as he makes sensible decisions
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TL
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Well, I have seen the movie and you are incorrect.
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Promethius
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editing
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TL
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Here's what I don't understand.

quote:
"Where in the *world* does Michael Moore say that the President personally flew the Bin Ladens out of the country?"

He says it in his film. He doesnt say Bush personally took the controls of the plane and flew the Bin Ladens out of the country....

So he doesn't say it. Which was my point. Someone made up something ridiculous, which Michael Moore never said, and then refuted it. And then you refuted me refuting it, but you say the same thing I said.

I am just confused.

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TL
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Look, here's the point: The movie is propaganda but it's propaganda I agree with and therefore I like it.

If other people hate it I am fine with that, and I'm perfectly willing to agree to disagree.

*shakes hands with everyone in thread*

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Promethius
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Not to bring up and old thread but he says Bush authorized it, and said the saudis flew out of the country when nobody else was allowed to, which isnt true. They flew out when the no fly order was lifted, Fahrenheit says otherwise.
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Alucard...
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Just for the record, I drink Kool-Aid.
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Pelegius
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OSC's commentary is not much more high-class than Mr Moore's.

Typical Mr Moore: Evil George W. Bush, I hate Republicans, I hate them!!
Typical OSC: Evil Liberal élite, I hate the lunitic left! Even though I am a Democrat!

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Tresopax
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quote:
Not because the facts presented are fictitous (they're not) but because of the way they're presented. There is no doubt that Michael Moore has a political point of view and that he is trying to sway anyone who watches his film to his way of thinking. Of course he can choose a) to include only the most-damaging facts, or b) to present a balanced viewpoint.

The movie is not balanced.

I don't ever recall seeing an interesting documentary that was balanced, though. I saw one about coral reefs that was clearly aimed at suggesting they should be preserved. I've seen several presenting foreign cultures, each of which had a distinct slant, usually to the effect of "this culture is as noble as our own and should be respected." And I think Supersize Me had a very clear slant against McDonald's. The nature of a documentary is to collect information and present them in a way that makes a point - it is not simply to document, because facts randomly arranged are quite boring.

Thus, I don't think you can argue that something is propaganda if it is not balanced because that would entail making the entire genre of documentaries into propaganda. I don't think you could reasonably say this is the case.

The only real difference with Fahrenheit 9/11 is that he presents a highly contraversial (and potentially very wrong) political viewpoint, rather than a feel-good viewpoint like "save the coral reefs" or a commonly accepted viewpoint like "McDonald's is unhealthy." It's really not fair to Moore to hate the guy just because his documentaries are contraversial - especially given that he is very good at making them, regardless of whether you agree with the conclusions.

(As a note, I happen to think the overall argument of Fahrenheit 9/11 is very poor. I don't think Bush is motivated by oil interests or Saudis. That doesn't change the fact that it was well presented and simultaneously entertaining.)

As for the real definition of propoganda, I'm not sure what it should be. However, I'm fairly confident it is something more narrow than "any film that is not balanced or tries to push a certain viewpoint."

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Promethius
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Tresopax I think I agree with everything you just said, which could be a first. I dont know if Moore convinced anyone with this film about the presidents motivations who didnt want to be convinced going into seeing it.

Despite Super Size Me and its obvious slant against fast food I think it was pretty interesting seeing how his health changed throughout the 30 days.

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TheSeeingHand
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Oh...I thought this thread was about Ray Bradbury's Fahrenheit 451. Guess I was wrong...
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Pelegius
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I read an intresting double review of Fahrenheit 9-11 and The Pasion of the Christ. I can't rember if it was in Time or The Economist. Any way, it pointed out that they both used the same cheap physcological tricks to make their point and both had the same affect, those who agreed with the directors views thought they were great, those who disagreed thought they were trash. Both movies were just rallying flags for one side.
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Clarifier
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quote:
Originally posted by TL:
Here's what I don't understand.

quote:
"Where in the *world* does Michael Moore say that the President personally flew the Bin Ladens out of the country?"

He says it in his film. He doesnt say Bush personally took the controls of the plane and flew the Bin Ladens out of the country....

So he doesn't say it. Which was my point. Someone made up something ridiculous, which Michael Moore never said, and then refuted it. And then you refuted me refuting it, but you say the same thing I said.

I am just confused.

i think the term you are looking for is "straw man"
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Promethius
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Pelegius

I havent seen the passion but dont you think the two films are a bit different? I think perhaps they are similar in the way they got hype due to controversy but the way they went about making a point were drastically different(from what I have heard) Yeah Gibson used shock value and Gore, but Moore used cheap shots and lies to prove his point. Gibson was illustrating his religous belief, not trying to destroy someones character and integrity.

I can see why someone who was not Christian might not like The Passion, and I can also see why someone who disagreed with Fahrenheit would think it was trash.

I say this not having seen The Passion so perhaps I am way off target in how the movie was portrayed.

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