posted
I pronounce it "tray". I used to pronounce it "trait" at first, then my father told me it's French - i.e., silent last consonant.
But some pronounce it "trait", from what I heard (it pronounced). (Half the words I know come from reading, so I wouldn't know too much before reading it.)
How do you pronounce it, and why?
Posts: 2978 | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
I think the t is pronounced, as trait comes from Old French via Middle English, not from modern French. But I am not an expert on Linguistics.
Posts: 1332 | Registered: Apr 2005
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Ask yourself how many English-speakers, even in England, pronounce the word "theatre" "tay-ah-truh." It's a pretty small number, and they're all jerks.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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So all those who spell the plural of "plateau" with an "x" and all those who say "antennae" also fall under that category?
Posts: 2978 | Registered: Oct 2004
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Actualy, antennæ is, in English, only correct for those on beatles and such. For man made objects, it's antennas.
Posts: 1332 | Registered: Apr 2005
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Right. Anyone who pronounces "theatre" "tay-ah-truh" and claims to be speaking English is a jerk. Almost but not quite everyone who spells it "plateaux" is a jerk.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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I've never heard anyone pronounce Trait purposely without the T, but we told my little sister that there was a silent z in Ohau, when she kept asking over and over how to spell it.
Posts: 234 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Jonathan Howard: Yet the OED mentions it pronounced "trei", US - "treit" (macrons on the "e"s).
That's not what the OED online says; it has trei, treit and does not specify whether they are British or American. It also has the note "The pronunciation (trei), after mod. French, in the 19th c. considered in England the correct one, is becoming less general; in U.S. (treit) is the established one."
The real question is, why is this in the Discussions About Orson Scott Card forum? Posts: 9945 | Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
In English, word-final /t/ is always pronounced, even if it loses some emphasis. 'Trait' may have originated from French, but we acclimated it to our repetoire of sounds over time, which is why we pronounce the last letter (just like how we say PariS not Pari).
Pronouncing theater as "The-A-tuh" is what iis called Hypercorrection which basically translates to sounding snooty and being well aware of it.
Posts: 484 | Registered: Feb 2006
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With me, anyway, whether or not the final "t" in "trait" is actually pronounced depends on whether or not the word is followed by anything else. If it is, I pronounce it. If it isn't, I don't release it, and my tongue lingers on my alveolar ridge.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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quote:Actualy, antennæ is, in English, only correct for those on beatles and such.
I was going to try to find a picture of the silly hat that Paul wore when he played Pyramus, but I don't have time. So, take a moment to imagine. Please. For me.
Posts: 866 | Registered: Dec 2003
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: I said "English," not "snob."
Ask yourself how many English-speakers, even in England, pronounce the word "theatre" "tay-ah-truh." It's a pretty small number, and they're all jerks.
I quipped in class the other day, in response to somebody correcting a fellow student on the pronunciation of "Cornet," as Cor-neh: If we pronounced every borrowed word in its original form, we'd surely sound like total idiots "did he hear about the tsunami! (in a bad japanese accent)
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by FlyingCow: Just as an aside, in England, they pronounce the final T on "filet", too.
Here I think the original pronunciation is retained. I've never heard anyone say fil-let. Often original pronunciacions are retained for clarity or ease of use. Filet with a "t" is awkward, and too close to that other less appropriate english word "Filate" (sp?)
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Noemon: With me, anyway, whether or not the final "t" in "trait" is actually pronounced depends on whether or not the word is followed by anything else. If it is, I pronounce it. If it isn't, I don't release it, and my tongue lingers on my alveolar ridge.
WHAT???? So your talking about animals and someone says yes well look at those hairs on the snout and you say "Why, I never noticed that trai---"
The person your talking to looks around for a cafeteria and concludes that your completely bonkers.
HELLO EVERYONE???? If you pronounce "Trait" as "Tray", then how do you pronounce "TRAY"
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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There is a difference between not releasing a consonant and not pronouncing it at all. My pronunciation of "trait" and "tray" are fairly distinct from one another. Even if they weren't, though, so what? Have you never heard of homophones?
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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Orincoro, I think it's the difference (broadly speaking) between "trait" with the final "t" just a clip off of the "tray" (i.e., the sound finishes instead of lingers) and "trait" with a fully pronounced final "t", more like "tray-tah".
Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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The typical American pronunciation of trait is /ʈɹeɪt̚/ (the diacritic on the final /t/ shows that the stop is unreleased), while tray is /ʈɹeɪ/. The (apparent) British pronunciation of trait is also /ʈɹeɪ/. It's a confusing world we live in.
Posts: 9945 | Registered: Sep 2002
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I like living in the Midwest. We have very little in the way of an accent (we pronounce wash 'warsh' for some-unknown-to-god-reason and occasionally try (badly) to speak in ebonics), so we don't have to deal with crazy Brits who leave the 't' off of trait.
Still, I wonder. How do the Aussies pronounce it? After all, the Australian accent is cool enough that we should ALL model our English after theirs. Just a thought.
Posts: 135 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Jon Boy: The typical American pronunciation of trait is /ʈɹeɪt̚/ (the diacritic on the final /t/ shows that the stop is unreleased), while tray is /ʈɹeɪ/. The (apparent) British pronunciation of trait is also /ʈɹeɪ/. It's a confusing world we live in.
You are not helping it get any less confusing, Jon Boy.
Posts: 10397 | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:Originally posted by ClaudiaTherese: Orincoro, I think it's the difference (broadly speaking) between "trait" with the final "t" just a clip off of the "tray" (i.e., the sound finishes instead of lingers) and "trait" with a fully pronounced final "t", more like "tray-tah".
ah feel the powah, and the hand-uh, of fate-uh
CAN I GET AN AMEN???
If you recogniizzze this trait-uh in yo-selfuh, speak it out ya'll
This is ridiculous, if JH had meant "trait" was trait and not trat-uh, then he assuming people go around saying trait-UH? I don't think so.
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Noemon: Jimbo, everyone has an accent, including people from the midwest.
Then why do the brits refer to American coastal English as non-accented. I've lived in London, and been told they don't think of American english as having a particular accent, but rather that they have an accent and we don't. Its wierd, but this is what I've heard.
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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I don't really know what you were trying to say to CT, Orinoco. It came off as snarky, which I think was intended (although maybe not--I can't see anything that she said that would provoke someone to act like that toward her), but beyond that it's a bit muddled.
As for the British people you spoke with believing that Americans don't have an accent, I have no idea why they'd think that. They're wrong though.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Noemon: I don't really know what you were trying to say to CT, Orinoco. It came off as snarky, which I think was intended (although maybe not--I can't see anything that she said that would provoke someone to act like that toward her), but beyond that it's a bit muddled.
Not being snarky, that's just my sense of humor. Don't worry. Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Jon Boy: The typical American pronunciation of trait is /ʈɹeɪt̚/ (the diacritic on the final /t/ shows that the stop is unreleased), while tray is /ʈɹeɪ/. The (apparent) British pronunciation of trait is also /ʈɹeɪ/. It's a confusing world we live in.
You are not helping it get any less confusing, Jon Boy.
It's not my fault you don't know IPA transcription. Posts: 9945 | Registered: Sep 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: Then why do the brits refer to American coastal English as non-accented. I've lived in London, and been told they don't think of American english as having a particular accent, but rather that they have an accent and we don't. Its wierd, but this is what I've heard.
I've never heard that before, and I'm inclined to disbelieve it. And even if they really think that, it doesn't mean that it's true. An accent is "a way of speaking typical of a particular group of people and especially of the natives or residents of a region" (Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary). Since everyone who speaks has a way of speaking, everyone has an accent.
Posts: 9945 | Registered: Sep 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: Then why do the brits refer to American coastal English as non-accented. I've lived in London, and been told they don't think of American english as having a particular accent, but rather that they have an accent and we don't. Its wierd, but this is what I've heard.
I've never heard that before, and I'm inclined to disbelieve it. And even if they really think that, it doesn't mean that it's true. An accent is "a way of speaking typical of a particular group of people and especially of the natives or residents of a region" (Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary). Since everyone who speaks has a way of speaking, everyone has an accent.
Why does everybody in these word threads wip out the websters or the IPA and force everybody to read the quotation?
When I was in London, it wasn't as if we all sat around in the cafes with a nice cozy, heavy webster's 5th edition in our laps discussing the entries on "perspicacity." I'm repeating what people told me, and I suspect if i'd turned around on them with the dictionary reference, I wouldn't have had a very good time. Sheesh. Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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::nods:: It's terrible how some people let facts get in the way of a perfectly good opinion, isn't it?
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: Why does everybody in these word threads wip out the websters or the IPA and force everybody to read the quotation?
Perhaps it's because dictionaries are a good way to understand words. If you think that some people don't have accents, then you clearly don't know what accents really are.
Plus, it's not exactly like I taped your eyelids open and forced you to read it at gunpoint.
Posts: 9945 | Registered: Sep 2002
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quote:It's not my fault you don't know IPA transcription.
In so many ways the world would be much easier if we all wrote in IPA (except for the obvious Latinized bias), but anyway, at the least it would make English MUCH easier to learn.
And that's really weird that they show the initial t as retroflex, which I don't hear, and I think emphasizes Orinoco's point as the best judge of proper pronounciation is fellow native speakers of your particular accent, not a dictionary composed and edited by academic elites.
Posts: 484 | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Noemon: ::nods:: It's terrible how some people let facts get in the way of a perfectly good opinion, isn't it?
Obviously my point wasn't well taken, again.
I wasn't really interested in "the facts" whatever they are. Just relaying an interesting anecdote, which I am in fact sure no-one will buy, because I really didn't buy it either. This reminds me of when your telling a story in which someone mispronounces a word or makes some other logical error and the person (bless them) who your talking to stops you to "correct" the story. Then the story is ruined and in the course of explaining it you feel like a moron, and the person looks at you in a bland tone of voice and says: "oh that's nice, I guess you had to be there" Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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