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Author Topic: A Martel essey
Notter
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hello, i'm new to the forum [Smile]
i've stumbled across an essey on Islam yesterday, not sure who wrote it, but it was posted in the journal section in www.b0g.org, a site that most of the times shows mutilated body parts, so i was a bit surprised to find it there.

I'm currently reading Shadow of the Giant, and i've read about martels esseys, and this just felt like part of the book for me. so i wanted to share it with other readers.
i hope i'm posting it in the right forum X_X
feel free to delete it or move it, in any case, here it is:

If I were to summarize Islam's unrestrained artifices I'd need only one word: backwards. What follows is a set of observations I have made about the religion of Islam.

In a recent essay, Islamists stated that a book of its writings would be a good addition to the Bible. Since the arguments it made in the rest of its essay are based in part on that assumption, it should be clear that this just isn't true. Not only that, but when it comes to its ultimata, I believe that we have drifted along for too long in a state of blissful denial and outright complacency. It's time to free people from the spell of fetishism that Islam has cast over them. The sooner we do that, the better, because it can fool some of the people all of the time. It can fool all of the people some of the time. But Islam can't fool all of the people all of the time.

Following this line of logic, it would appear that we must take steps against the whole catty brotherhood of unruly suicide bombers. This call to action begins with you. You must be the first to insist on a policy of zero tolerance toward Islam. You must be the one to develop a rational-empirical base for dialogue about Islam's prank phone calls. And you must inform your fellow man that Islam has for a long time been arguing that things have never been better. Had it instead been arguing that my motivations for writing this letter are not of insult or hatred, but of the deepest love for mankind and the truest concern for its future generations, I might cede it its point. As it stands, the leap of faith required to bridge the logical gap in Islam's arguments is simply too terrifying for me to contemplate.

What I do often contemplate, however, is how when I hear it said that sin is good for the soul, I have to wonder about it. Is it completely malignant? Is it simply being hostile? Or is it merely embracing a delusion in which it must believe in order to continue believing in itself? The answer to that question has broad implications. For example, Islam's "fatwas" are rife with contradictions and difficulties; they're utterly foolish, meet no objective criteria, and are unsuited for a supposedly educated population. And as if that weren't enough, if Islam were to use more accessible language, then a larger number of people would be able to understand what it's saying. The downside for Islam, of course, is that a larger number of people would also understand that it has rightly earned the scorn and derision with which it is viewed in many quarters. Let's remember that. If I want to die in oppression, chaos, and despair, that should be my prerogative. I obviously don't need Islam forcing me to.

Islam insists that we should avoid personal freedoms. This fraud, this lie, is just one among the thousands they perpetrate. In the simplest of terms, Islam is trying to brainwash us. It wants us to believe that it's fatuitous to condemn its criminal ineptitude; that's boring; that's not cool. You know what I think of that, don't you? I think that Islam's activities are a mere cavil, a mere scarecrow, one of the last shifts of a desperate and dying cause. I see how important Islam's foul assertions are to its allies and I laugh. I laugh because its hariolations represent a backward step of hundreds of years, a backward step into a chasm with no bottom save the endless darkness of death.

When Islam hears anyone say that by opting for the easy, short-term, feel-good path, it will keep us perennially behind the eight ball sooner than you think, its answer is to exert more and more control over other individuals. That's similar to taking a few drunken swings at a beehive: it just makes me want even more to point out the glaring contradiction between its idealized view of irreligionism and reality. While Islam has a right to its opinion, when I'm through with it, it'll think twice before attempting to leave behind a wake of randy reaction. By now, the reader has discerned that Islam's lalochezia is downright annoying. So let me just add that I recently heard it tell a bunch of people that bookish crumbums are easily housebroken. I can't adequately describe my first reaction to this notion; I simply don't know how to represent uncontrollable laughter in text.

Whenever someone tells Islam not to lead us, lemminglike, over the precipice of self-destruction, Islam gets all teary-eyed. My, my; how sad. My heart bleeds for it, it really does. This is not to say that the natural result of Islam's effusions is an intolerance that, in the long run, tends to threaten, degrade, poison, bulldoze, and kill this world of ours. It is merely to point out that I respect the English language and believe in the use of words as a means of communication. Warped sociopaths like Islam, however, consider spoken communication as merely a set of noises uttered to excite emotions in intellectually challenged hellions in order to convince them to create a bitter, mudslinging world of guilt and shame.

Islam's apothegms express themselves in thousandfold manifestations, with one of its proxies in despair and hopelessness, with another in ill will, anger, and indignation, with these ornery gutter-dwellers in indifference, and with those in furious excesses. A recent series of hearings, lawsuits, and media reports demonstrates that I believe in "live and let live". Islam, in contrast, demands not only tolerance and acceptance of its histrionics but endorsement of them. It's because of such spineless demands that I myself maintain that I'm not a batty person. I'd like nothing more than to extend my hand in friendship to Islam's sympathizers and convey my hope that in the days to come we can work together to enable adversaries to meet each other and establish direct personal bonds which contradict the stereotypes they rely upon to power their irritable perversions and encourage others to do the same. Unfortunately, knowing them, they'd rather break the mind and spirit, castrate the character, and kill the career of anyone whose ideas Islam deems to be apolaustic because that's what Islam wants. Several things Islam has said have brought me to the boiling point. The statement of its that made the strongest impression on me, however, was something to the effect of how it is a tireless protector of civil rights and civil liberties for all people. I do not have the time, in one sitting, to go into the long answer as to why we must do away with the misconception that doing the fashionable thing is more important than life or liberty. But the short answer is that it always sounds like it's reading a prepared speech.

Why do I tell you this? Because these days, no one else has the guts to. I hate it when people get their facts wrong. For instance, whenever I hear some corporate fat cat make noises about how all literature which opposes oligarchism was forged by the most macabre harijans I've ever seen, I can't help but think that Islam is extraordinarily brazen. We've all known that for a long time. However, its willingness to prime the pump of propagandism sets a new world record for brazenness. One last thing: Disreputable Muslims tend to dismiss reason, science, and objective reality.



i also feel like this assey missed the point somewhat, and it could have made a larger impact.
it didn't "crush" what islam does, it just mentioned how it's not tolarent, and uses everything it have in it's powers to brainwash people, but that's about it.

if i were someone without an opinion beforehand, i wouldn't be convinced.

so please tell me what you thought about it, and what are your opinions.

anyway, i should let you know i'm from Israel (which gotten very little attension in the books, heh) and i do feel the threat of Islam on my back. and by that i mean the physical threat, of Iran dropping an atomic bomb on me.
i can only hope to reach the age of 30 with the way the world handles the situation right now.
and reading shadow of the giant is a bit frightning i have to admit.

i'm also drafting to the army tomarrow (mendatory here)

and lastly, Mr. Card has visited israel two years ago to a sci-fi convention, and i was extremly excited about getting to meet him.
but fate had it's last laugh, and i've been in poland visiting Auschwitz in a trip from my school exactly when he visited [Frown]
i hope there's a chance he'll visit us agian.
his books had a great effect on my personallity.

oh and btw, in case you've read all this and classified me to be anti-Islam because i'm jewish, then I'll let you know i'm extremly anti-religion, even judisem, as religion brings us mostly only arguments and war.

edit: heh, found a post on the same thread page, a plead for you to come agian ^_^
link
intresting... well i wish it would happen [Smile]

[ April 02, 2006, 07:54 PM: Message edited by: Notter ]

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Flaming Toad on a Stick
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quote:
Originally posted by Notter:
religion brings us mostly only arguments and war.


All war stems from human nature-religion(including Islam)teaches tolerance. Trying to blame the world's problems on religion is useless.

Some say that people in power use religion to force the people under them to obey. This argument is also useless, as leaders, in the absence of religion, would use anything available to get the people to support them. This is exemplefied in the soviet union(millitary power) and America(Patriotism). As long as there are cruel, ambitious people in the world, they will always find a way to gain power over others.

The rise of terrorists in Islamic countries is not caused by Islam. A vast majority of Muslims are against violence. Islam's main concept is peace.
(In case you were wondering, I'm Catholic)

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Notter
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you might be right, but i still belive a lot of death, racism and hatred could have been sparred if it wasn't for religion.

other then that, you say Islam isn't the core of this people hatred a violance.
but have you ever seen such backwards people acting in this barbaric ways in any other religion? in any other nation?

i'm not exactly sure the "vast" majority of muslims are agianst violance, because maybe you're not aware of it, but in the recent phalastinian elections, the Hammas goverment won.
and that government wants anything but peace.

you know what's the alst rule they orderd in the parlament?
that the people may use any means neccessery to oppose israel, as long as it doesn't contradict the Ganeva's agreement. and that's ofcourse so the UN won't stop them.

and that government was elected by the people.
and it's not just them because they are being "oppressed" by israel, it's islams all across the world that way.

and i'm not saying that out of racism either, since i do know quite a lot of arabs and some are good friends of my dad.
but they are not the majority...

Edit: and altough it's just fiction, look at the book shadow of the giant.
not a single country is united for war from any other reason then religion.
how many diffrent reasons could there be to unite a country (other then defence)?

I think you'll find that countries that are less dominent by religion are far less aggresive then religious countries.
and racism of course also comes from religion (and also from fear and intolerence to other beings)

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Flaming Toad on a Stick
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quote:
Originally posted by Notter:

other then that, you say Islam isn't the core of this people hatred a violance.
but have you ever seen such backwards people acting in this barbaric ways in any other religion? in any other nation?

Oh yeah. The crusades are an example, and the kamikaze pilots believed that by bombing America, they would obtain heaven. They were led to this by the Emperor, who feared America.

Another interesting example would be France after the revolution. In the name of atheism and patriotism, thousands of people have been put to death. If you want a more modern example, you can look at the genocides in Africa.

I realize that, in your situation, it seems that muslims are out to get you. You also cite the ascension of Hamas in Palestine. You must realize that Palestine has been at war with Israel for many years. This problem spans from land problems, not religious reasons. Hamas is a powerful party, and have coerced palestinians into giving them their vote.

To clarify from a previous paragraph, I believe that atheism is a religion.

Also, if my writing seems harsh or heavy-handed, I apologize. That was not my intent.

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Notter
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i still don't see how you contradict me
maybe it's because i don't know enough about the things you mentioned, but aren't the crusades a perfect example for what i'm saying?
the drive force was religion.

but anyway, as you also mentioned, wer'e dealing in moderns times, and we expact people that lived 500 years ago to be barbaric...
but at this day i belive there are better ways.

one of the things i had in mind when i said islam was barbaric, was the ritual where they hit themselves with knives. i learend about that when i learned Islam in school, but i forgot most of what i learned about it (got 55 in Islam, heh, it was mendatory... also arabic)
this is the kind of things i don't think people should do to theselves and others (kids) in the name of religion.
but i also have to point out, not all the people acctuely practice that costume, only a few.

and i also admit, that not all wars were fought for religion, like the franch revolution, that was thought for an ideal.
you can say that the american civil war was the same, since it's not based on religion.
and also the thing they have in common is that they're both internal wars, and not about land.

the palastinian issue, is a bit more then just about land, wer'e giving them lands, we elected a government that is about to continue giving them lands.
but they'll only be happy when the last israeli is out of existence.

but i didn't really want to take that spesific issue, but the more global islam behavior.
they give the most problems to the UN, always deceving the world in order to get their goal.
and i'm pretty sure that goal will lead to WW3.
they're i tihnk, the most intolarent nation i can think of, yet they expect the world to treat them with honor. because of their religion.

other then that, i'm pretty ignorant about the genocides in africa, i never really looked into it... but doesn't it have something to do with tribes? (altough i'm not sure the tribes there have anything to do with religion)

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Flaming Toad on a Stick
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The point that I'm trying to make is that these so-called "religious wars" are not done for God, but for personal endeavor by people in power. The Crusades, done in Christ's name, were for imperialistic reasons. My main point is that you cannot blame religion for one's actions UNLESS that religion AND it's practicioners condone that action.

In the case of Islam, yes, there are many, many problems that Islamists are causing in the world. Many thousands of Muslims are intolerant extremists. That doesn't mean that Islam itself is extremist. Islam preaches peace.

Give me one good example of a tolerant nation. WW3 will not be caused solely by Islam.

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Notter
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well, i my eyes Israel is a tolerant nation for example.
and also every nation that is pro-peace.
we have 3 arabic parties in our parlament (since there are about 1 million arabs that live in israel) so they have their representetives.
we give the palastiniens money and weapons to help them enforce their rule and for their wellfair and health.

but you can contradict me by saying that just israel existing is intolarence, since we are not respecting the arabs claims...
so it's really a matter of perspective.
but if you consider what's legal, then israel is there on legal terms.

i'm sorry for choosing israel to answer you, since there's a limit to how objective i can be, but it's just that since i live here, that's the country i ahve the most information about.

anyway, to your point, you're saying that we don't need the religion for the wars, since it's caused by people.
that is exactly right (and also a reason, not to belive in any religion) but in acctuality, leaders do use it as a weapon.

so maybe i was wrong when i said that religion couse wars, and you made me see that.
it's the human nature.
but without a weapon, it's hard to wage wars, right?
so maybe some would never exist, if it wasn't for religion.

edit: forgot to address if islam will be the only reason for WW3...
no, i can't say that, because for example Russia is funding Iran just because they care for their own ass (well, their economy)
but islam is the main and "almost" only source for all the agitation in the world.

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Flaming Toad on a Stick
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The only way that you could take away religion is to convert everyone to one religion. I reiterate that atheism is a religion too.

Israel fences off palestine on all sides, and blocks any commerce between it and the world. Due to this, palestine's economy is crumbling, people are thrown into poverty and hate fosters. This is not the behaviour of a tolerant nation.

As for religion, what you are proposing is that people abandon their faith. This is something deeply personal and sacred. You are asking me to denounce Christ, to stop believing in divinity.

Religion is very important to people. Some people abuse that. However, religion is not the only weapon that they can use. Even now, some fundamentalists are using patriotism and (I regret to say it) antisemitism and anti-Americanism to rally their troops.

Islam will not cause a global war. The entire world is in decay. People cling to their faith in troubled times.

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Notter
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so you're saying that just israel existing is intolarent.
because i don't see how how we can restrict palastine from the world.
in this map you can see that palestine has borders to the east and south with arab countries, and access to teh sea...

if anything, then israel is the one being blocked by arab countries, that would make much more sense, since they're he majority.

anyway, you're not the first one telling me he thinks atheism is a religion.
but i really don't get that concept, how can not beliving in anything be a religion?
here's a difenition from wikipedia:

Religion is commonly defined as a group of beliefs concerning the supernatural, sacred, or divine, and the moral codes, practices, values, institutions and rituals associated with such belief. It is sometimes used interchangeably with "faith" or "belief system."

and then i looked up atheism:

Although atheists often share common concerns regarding empirical evidence and the scientific method of investigation and a large number are skeptics, there is no single ideology that all atheists share. Thus, atheism is not a religion.

Atheist have diffrent reason to not belive, and diffrent degrees of not beliving in religion, for example, i'm extremly anti-religion, and think we should try do something agianst it.
while others just don't care about it.
there's no unity in atheism, there aren't any ideas.
so how can it be a religion?

if it was possible to convert someone to stop beliving in his religion, i wouldn't even consider him part of something i am (as in "one religion) only freeing him from the restrictions of faith. and religion have many of those.

the main reason religion si important to people is because of fear. fear of death. it's the hope there's a life after we die.
every religion promises a reincarnation, or paradise... after we die.
like there is a meaning to life, it's here to judge us if we go to hell or paradise.

you take away the fear of death, and there's no need for religion.

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Rakeesh
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quote:
maybe it's because i don't know enough about the things you mentioned, but aren't the crusades a perfect example for what i'm saying?
the drive force was religion.

If you believe the primary driving force for the Crusades (there are so many) was religion, I suggest you re-examine the history of the Crusades and learn what Crusaders actually attained in the mortal world, setting aside potential Heavenly benefits.

A whole lot of them got massive amounts of wealth, land, fame, power, and other valuable resources. In addition to promises of rewards in the hereafter, perhaps these things played a more substantial part than you're apparently giving them, notter.

quote:
but anyway, as you also mentioned, wer'e dealing in moderns times, and we expact people that lived 500 years ago to be barbaric...
but at this day i belive there are better ways.

There is an interesting fact about the differing ages of the Islamic religion and the Christian religion tied to your remark about 500 years.

quote:
you might be right, but i still belive a lot of death, racism and hatred could have been sparred if it wasn't for religion.
Considering that two of the largest wars in the history of humanity had very, very little (to the point of 'nothing') to do with religion, I think you're flat-out wrong.

quote:
i'm not exactly sure the "vast" majority of muslims are agianst violance, because maybe you're not aware of it, but in the recent phalastinian elections, the Hammas goverment won.
and that government wants anything but peace.

The Hamas movement is known for things other than violence. They do have other agendas, but naturally to me their devotion to violence and terrorism is probably up near the top of the list of importance. Possibly they were elected for more than their violence.
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StickyWicket
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quote:
Originally posted by Flaming Toad on a Stick:
religion(including Islam)teaches tolerance.

How so, Isn't there something in the Koran about killing anyone who converts from Islam to another faith? that doesn't seem very tolerant.
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MagusFire
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it's called Apostasy, and it's what's preventing Islam from ever being a religion of peace. Alai agrees with that, too [Razz]
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Flaming Toad on a Stick
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Atheists do share common ideologies-they believe that there is no Divine force, and that everything can be explained in terms understandable by humans. Because there is no proof to the non-existence of God, and humans can describe very little of the world around them, atheism is a matter of faith, not rationality. Add to that-there are groups worldwide trying to convert people and society to atheism, and there you have a religion.

The fencing that I'm referring to has nothing to do with borders, it is an actual fence that Israel has constructed-of concrete and steel-to block palestinian trade routes.

You call faith a restriction, but it is no more than a guideline to moral behaviour.

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Notter
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you can't say atheism is a religion, because it's my faith that dictates there isn't a god.
you're just using your view of the world on other people.
the way i see it, beliving in gods etc. is lunacy, it's mass dellusion and brainwashing.
and for me it's a fact, i don't need to prove there isn't a god, because you don't need to prove anything to a madman. (sorry if it's insulting)

what i'm saying is, not beliving in anything isn't a faith, it's not even a way of life, it's just facing the facts and not being afried of them.
and that act of "coverting" which is almost not even possible in matters of religion, does not make it a religion.

the acctuel fence is blocking entery to israel, the borders of israel, and it's self defence, because as you know, they lunch missiles at us every single day, and there's suicide bombers etc.
it's not blocking them to the outside world.
unless you consider israel the outside world, and as you know israel does give help to those who need it, just very very carefull, because they use those opportunities to smuggle explosives.

anyway, maybe i'm too optimistic, but i don't think you need a religion to dictate moral behavior.
there are enough religious people that are criminals.
so maybe in theory that's the reason for religion, but msot don't abide those rules.
instead it's being used for manipulation.
and not only that, it DOES resrict people.
even atheists like me.

for exmaple, in israel there aren't civil marriages, and there's kosher laws, and hasidic jews can choose not to serve the military, while it's mendatory for the rest of the country.

so the way i see it, religion is just unneccesery, so why practice it at all?
good things can happen without religion.
bad things can happen with it.

better not to waste your time on it, and "poof", you lose a reason to for fractures in the world.

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Flaming Toad on a Stick
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You make the mistake of thinking that religion is something that people are just fooling around with. This is completely false. People take their faith as a fact. I completely believe, for example, that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. This is as true to me as your beliefs are to you. This may be a foreign concept to you, but religious people believe completely in what they do in terms of faith. Furthermore, it is unethical to dissmiss religion as lunacy or brainwashing, because we believe the same about you. It all comes down to your opinion versus ours, with no undeniable proof on either side. It makes no difference whether or not you are religious, you will believe that you are right. Therefore, religious people don't deny the facts, they simply follow their faith as you follow yours. And with human nature being what it is, why would you attack something that tells people to be good?(please don't say "Because it's false" unless you can prove it)

I was offended when you said
good things can happen without religion.
bad things can happen with it.

The opposite is also true, meaning that your statement is unfounded and barbaric. If you're going to attack someone's faith, do it in an open way, not using McDonald's style advertising slogans. You're smarter than that.

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Notter
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acctuely when i started writing that
the second verse was supposed to be "bad things can happen without religion"

the point being the religion is not what's effecting the world, it's not god toying with our lives.
so i ment the opposite is also true.
maybe i wasn't clear enough with my point.
because i made it sound like the religion is the source of evil.

but you see, the thing i don't get about religion is, how can you contribute with religion?
by serving and practicing what you belive in, how do you make the world a better place?
(and i'm not reffering to you spesifficly)
maybe a bad man can mae himself feel right about doing wrong things by praying to a god, but how does that make things better?

and if you acctuely don't achive anything with it, by praying, why doing it at all?
you could be an atheist and the end result would be the same.

and there are a lot of people that just sit and pray for sickness to get better instead of doing something about it.
and more of that kind of things.

also, i was arguing with someone about religion some days ago, and he told me he used it as means to meet a group of people (he belives in some spiritual connection between all humen without a god)
but still, do you really need the religion part jsut to meet people?
i'm sure there are better things to gather for.

anyway, it's very childish and stupid of me to want to force atheism on the world, but i think that's a good way for the human race to progress.

especially without the islam.

edit: btw, i'm going to sleep soon, and tomarrow i'm drafting to the army [Frown]
so maybe i won't be able to continue the discussion in the next few days untill i get back home [Cry]

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airmanfour
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Good luck dude.
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Flaming Toad on a Stick
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Best Wishes.
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