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Author Topic: First 5 chapters of Empire
Catseye1979
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I"ve read the first four chapters, don't have time for the chapter 5 before going to work, but I noticed in chapter 3 Cole was told to dress as a sturdent for his meeting with Malek and said he was going to wear a red shirt with his old school's name on it, later in the next chapter it mentioned Malek being in civilian's cloths but Cole's uniform making it easier to deal with the authorities. Just wondering if Cole had a chance to change back to uniform while they were trying to stop the incident?

Well I need to get to work. I'll read the rest later.

P.S. So far it looks really good, I Look forward to getting the book.

[ August 09, 2006, 03:25 PM: Message edited by: Catseye1979 ]

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fred
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The red shirt comment was a joke that I believe was said by Cole.

Fred

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vonk
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I just finished reading it, and it's great. I wish I could read more of it now. I have a feeling that this is going to be one of those non-stop books that gets read in a single sitting.

It was a little awkward getting thrown in the middle of the action at the beginning, but once you realized that it was all setup it flowed very well. I really like the characters so far, nice and sarcastic, just the way I like it. You can always count on OSC to provide some great sardonic lines. Especially the secretary, she made me laugh out loud.

I'm really interested to see who becomes a major player later on, specifically Torrent and Malek's jeesh. I'm really hoping they get in on it, because I have a feeling that they're conversations with Malek and/or Cole will be priceless.

Also, I really enjoyed the throwbacks to EG. The use of 'jeesh' was pretty obvious, but do you think the name John Paul was an allusion, or just a common Catholic name?

I saw a couple of what could have been spelling or grammar errors, but is that just due to converting it to this medium? Or they could have been intentional and I'm just being anal.

Either way, I really enjoyed it and can't wait for the rest. As usual, well done OSC.

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Launchywiggin
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One thing I noticed about this work in contrast to other works....

OSC is always quick to correct when people attribute his personal beliefs to his character's beliefs (interviewers often did this to him in relation to the Ender/Shadow series).

In the case of Empire, however, I hear Card's opinions very clearly in the narration through Reuben. He speaks of the "establishment" of liberal universities and blue-staters with his usual derision.

And I don't disagree with his claims that there is a liberal establishment at universities like my own. I just don't like being called brainwashed and righteous because I happen to lean further to the left.

Regardless, I love the story and the characters. I just found it interesting that Card was very clearly putting his personal opinions in the mind of the main character.

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ketchupqueen
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Just a stylistic nitpick: adrenalin. While I understand using the more common-man word instead of "epinephrine", I had to check to make sure that was a correct spelling, and it stopped my reading. My (admittedly brief) research indicates that while both spellings are considered correct, "adrenaline" with an "e" at the end is more common than "adrenalin" without, and it made me pause my reading of chapter one. I've never seen it spelled without an "e" on the end before, and it bothered me, even though I know it's correct now.

Anyway, I'm sure no one cares. Back to reading.

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ketchupqueen
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Oooh. I liked the end of Chapter 2. Even if I don't agree with some of the ideas and/or assumptions earlier in the chapter, I loved the end.
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ketchupqueen
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Okay, another spelling thing: is "cooky" vs. "cookie" a regional thing? 'Cause that one I've seen before, but it still seems abnormal to me.
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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by ketchupqueen:
Okay, another spelling thing: is "cooky" vs. "cookie" a regional thing?

Yes, mostly.
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B34N
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Kind of like you all and ya'll [Big Grin]
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MrSquicky
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errr...does chapter 5 seem a trifle unrealistic to anyone else?

I mean, without spoilers, I have quite a bit of difficulty believing that anyone, especially those characters, would think or talk about most of the things from that chapter after what happened.

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B34N
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Wow, if the first five chapters are already starting controversy (sp?) thent hat rest of book is definitely a worth while read.
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MrSquicky
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I'd be interested and terribly suprised to know that anyone else besides you found that insulting Zotto!
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B34N
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No just adding useless banter to the boards, sorry if I intruded.
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MrSquicky
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B,
That comment was intended for Zotto!, not you. I'm not sure I'm seeing the controversy though.

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B34N
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There isn't any. That's why I said useles banter. Sorry, it sounded like you two were at odds with eachother for a second but it sounds like your actually agreeing with eachother. I am going to read the chapters this weekend to have time to soak it all in, I kind of just want to wait to read it though. It would be horrible to get really involved and then have to wait 2 1/2 months to get the rest of the story. I'm so impatient that way about my books.
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MrSquicky
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Zotto,
No worries. I don't generally ask rhetorical questions.

You really didn't find reflections on the whole walking/gas usage thing and then the kvetch session about how Europeans suck to be jarringly unrealistic? I really couldn't picture myself or anyone I know behaving anything like that at that time.

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MrSquicky
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To me, there was no tension to those parts. Considering some pretty heavy things just went down and these two guys are stuck in the middle of it and need to figure a way out, I didn't see how structured musing about irrelevant states of the world worked at all or made any sense. Also, it seemed like the lines between the characters blurred quite a bit, with Cole doing the historical musings that, even if it made sense, would have been coming for Malek.
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pooka
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Do we really have to worry about spoiling the ending of the first five chapters, which are posted conveniently on the internet?

Anyway, I guess it didn't seem unrealistic because it does take a long time to walk from the White House to Arlington. Though I suppose a description of the distance/time might be helpful. But I guess the discussion about the relationship of people with their cars and the segue into Oil and the Middle East was supposed to accomplish that. I wonder how that scene will pan out in the FPS game [Wink]

I was just very impressed with his solution to the question of how the war gets started, which I had been really puzzled over (for the reasons Malek outlined) from first hearing about the premise of this book.

P.P.S. It wasn't news that the guy was screwed. He was waiting for it, which is why his wife was worried about him and why he was where he was. In such a circumstance, I would expect him to be relieved. And as his material responses show, he was prepared for such an eventuality.

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MrSquicky
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I figured that it being the first days, I'd have to at least mark it with spoiler tags, which sounded like more of a hassle than being a little vague.

Also, there's a huge, very obvious hole in this:
quote:
It wasn't news that the guy was screwed. He was waiting for it, which is why his wife was worried about him and why he was where he was. In such a circumstance, I would expect him to be relieved. And as his material responses show, he was prepared for such an eventuality.
You may want to go back and check who the viewpoint character for chapter 5 is.
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ketchupqueen
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quote:
Originally posted by Zotto!:
My apologies if I misread your intent, Squick. In my experience, people tend to use the "um" or "er" opening when they're asking sarcastic rhetorical questions, the answers to which they're trying to imply should be obvious. Your post still reads that way to me, but it wouldn't be the first time I've read someone's intent incorrectly.

I don't usually use "um" and "er" that way. If you see them from me, you can bet I'm probably genuinely concerned or confused. [Smile]
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ketchupqueen
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I have to say, as a definite liberal who winces when I'm reading "World Watch" (when I read it, which is not always), I was completely able to stomach the first five chapters. There were times when my brain would have objected had it not been a novel, but it being a novel, I was able to accept the thoughts as the characters' points of views, flawed though I thought some of their assumptions might be.

Hey, at least it was better written than Ayn Rand. The style makes a huge difference. [Big Grin]

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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by ketchupqueen:
I don't usually use "um" and "er" that way. If you see them from me, you can bet I'm probably genuinely concerned or confused. [Smile]

Ditto.
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Feiwaltan
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i am a very curious as to how this will end. Since Mr. Card already said that there is a sequel planned, still an interesting read none the less.
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Zotto!
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Egad, I must be hanging out with all the bitter sarcastic people, then, and I apologize to all you er and um-ers. Practically the ONLY time I ever hear people start with an "um" or an "er" 'round these parts is when they're trying to point out how very wrong I am. *laugh* You learn something new everyday.
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airmanfour
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Does it seem unpolished to anyone but me? I haven't really had a hard time swallowing the hypothetical current events and politics of the Shadow series, but this Empire thing is just....odd.
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jd2cly60
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I think its just OSC's style morphing naturally over the last few years, I think you can see a definite style shift as the voice from teh world watch and uncle orson articles (notice that Malek uses 'zip' rather than the sensible aught or 'oh' a normal person uses, the misspelled 'cooky' and the lack of the silent e on adrenaline) gets incorporated into his novels. Definitely seen it creeping into the last shadow novels, in full force in 'Pretty Boy' and apparent here as well. It's just a different stage of his career, there was a time there was a lot of sex and violence and fascinating bad characters who you understood and good characters that were often full of bits of bad. And along the way you drew your own interesting conclusions about people and groups and the important things of living. Now we get pure evil Achilles with a pseudo psychological explanation and characters that talk in monologues and history lessons and use colons to tell us about the true meaning or secret of life so we can't miss the author's point.

I miss the deceptive simplicity of the prior writing, because I still see flashes of it.

that said, this was a really fun read, each chapter was like an episode from 24. It'd make a fun movie.

I had a professor like Torrent (he writes books like "Annoying the Victorians" if you want to look him up) his class was called 'the perils of common sense' and it was about learning how to think and see what our cultural blinders shield us from thinking about. it was another way of making your brain work and seeing all sorts of perspectives rather than shutting down and jumping to conclusions left right or center. it was a terrific class even though it was unfortunately in fall of 2004 and outside of the lone libertarian noone dared contradict the outspoken liberals who led discussion and tried to humiliate a few conservative viewpoints, when they rarely spoke, unless I spoke up with a devil's advocate comment. it was an incredible class for me because I was thinking and having fun every moment, even though it remains the only class where such squashing of viewpoints was done, it was hardly typical and it was student led discussion rather than the professor. I don't move in that world, as apparently OSC does, but in my experience professors run their classes evenly or just completely free of political inclination when not directly confronted. I've never experienced the leaders of university to promote the atmosphere OSC indicates. In my experience, students make much better radicals, if anything professors generally quell their radicalist outrages (is it hormones? does every radical just need to get laid or euphoric more often, geez?) just as the book burners, murderers and culture destroyers chairman Mao recruited in the millions with no trouble at all. I've certainly heard many, many students express a wish that Bush were assassinated, so that makes this book all the more interesting and relevant. I've even been ruthlessly mocked and told how worthless my area of the country is simply because I hail from a flyover state, which is apparently only good for food because all the culture is in New York and all the entertainment is in LA and the rest is 'ruining' the country because they have too much say because of the electoral college when ideally they should have no say at all and a feudal society administering the agricultural areas would make much more sense. I'm not exaggerating or making any of that up. So yeah a civil war would be possible. I'm just glad most of those people have never handled a gun and seem to think that killing makes you scared so you shake all over and have to draw it out for minutes and then you're traumatized for life--god I hate that film/tv depiction of killing so much.

Congratulations, OSC you got me thinking again as always, and that's always a good thing.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
So yeah a civil war would be possible.
Which American culture would you want to win a bloody culture war?
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rivka
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"Cooky" and "adrenalin" are not misspellings; they are regional variants (and you will find both as acceptable spellings in any dictionary).

"Asplode" however, was misspelled. [Wink]

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mr_porteiro_head
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:
So yeah a civil war would be possible.
Which American culture would you want to win a bloody culture war?
You first, Tom.
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BlackBlade
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I think he mentions something like the liberal left will control the military (even though the military is filled with traditionally conservative people, yet the military remains loyal to the govt). The conservatives form privatized militias and armies who clash with the military.

I liked Andrew Jackson's and John C Calhoun's discussion of the situation. Would you be on Jacksons, "Our federal Union, IT MUST BE PRESERVED!" or Calhoun's, "The Union! Next to our liberty MOST DEAR!"

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ketchupqueen
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quote:
Originally posted by rivka:
"Cooky" and "adrenalin" are not misspellings; they are regional variants (and you will find both as acceptable spellings in any dictionary).

I didn't say they were; just that they gave me pause.

Just pointing that out. [Wink]

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Dr Strangelove
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I liked it. At times it seemed like the "points" were layed on a bit thick, but it was just sort of a vague feeling I got. I can definately see me inhaling this book.

One thing I noticed was in the first chapter it says "The Americans got directions from him and strode out of the camp ...". Is this referring to a camp the Americans had outside the village? I thought they were staying in the village.

Also, "Princeton University as an alien planet. Reuben Malek as the astronaut who somehow lost his helmet -- and spent day after day gasping for air." Is that supposed to be "as an alien planet"? Looking at it again I guess it makes sense, but it was a bit jarring when I first read it.

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TheHumanTarget
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I liked it, and I enjoyed OSC's characterization and humanizing of the various players.
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Narnia
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I'm still reading...but I'm tickled that he's using the name 'Cecily.' That just happens to be my first name! [Big Grin] (Thanks to Zotto for pointing that out.)
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mr_porteiro_head
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quote:
Originally posted by Narnia:
I'm still reading...but I'm tickled that he's using the name 'Cecily.' That just happens to be my first name! [Big Grin] (Thanks to Zotto for pointing that out.)

[Mad]
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TheHumanTarget
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mph...what's with the angry face?
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mr_porteiro_head
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Oh, she knows. [Wink]
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Narnia
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[Wink] Ok Porter. You pointed it out too. *pat pat*
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mr_porteiro_head
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I think I was just pwned.
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Seatarsprayan
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quote:
I'm still reading...but I'm tickled that he's using the name 'Cecily.' That just happens to be my first name! [Big Grin] (Thanks to Zotto for pointing that out.)
You didn't know your own first name until Zotto pointed it out?
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Narnia
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talk about being pwned Porter? [Wink]
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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by ketchupqueen:
quote:
Originally posted by rivka:
"Cooky" and "adrenalin" are not misspellings; they are regional variants (and you will find both as acceptable spellings in any dictionary).

I didn't say they were; just that they gave me pause.

Just pointing that out. [Wink]

I wasn't responding to you. [Smile]

I was responding to the jumble-of-letters-and-numbers guy. [Wink]

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ketchupqueen
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Oh, all right. 'Cause I know you want your Stargate, so you want to stay on my good side. [Taunt] [Wink] [Kiss]
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rivka
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But it's true!
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Roger Parkinson
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I also felt the style he used was a little preachy and awkward considering the circumstances. I am forced to agree with Squicky. That being said, I will pick up the book when it comes out and finish it in one day.

I noticed a similar pattern in writing evolution from Tom Clancy. His last couple of books although riveting, have a few items that I found jarring.

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pooka
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quote:
You may want to go back and check who the viewpoint character for chapter 5 is.
err....Which is why I discussed his material responses and my expectation of his emotional state.

"err" is so nice. It sounds both inarticulate and like a very specific Latinate word.

P.S. I was going to comment that going to an airport and speaking Farsi with a group is not exactly a way to improve privacy. If anyone can overhear you, it seems it would raise some alarm. Especially since this guy is ethnically Mediterrenean looking (we assume?) I wonder if Card wrote this role from Antonio Banderas. Mmmmm...

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CRash
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quote:
...notice that Malek uses 'zip' rather than the sensible aught or 'oh' a normal person uses...
My friends and I use "zip" all the time (although whether we're normal or not is an entirely different question). But "aught"? No one says "aught" anymore! [Smile]
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rivka
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They really ought to.
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TomDavidson
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quote:
You first, Tom.
That's an easy one: the one that doesn't fight it.
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pooka
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And if that isn't an option? Actually, I think where this book is going is the attempt to disarm the fighting side by whatever means are necessary. Which I supposed you could call not fighting.
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