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Author Topic: Children Of The Mind And Mr Card's Current Form
Idris
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Well I have finally got round to reading it and after the first four chapters I have given up.

It does not have any appeal. Theres no real plot movement. Its like Mr. Card is filling the pages with nothing important to stretch the plot out into a decent sized book.

Xenocide should have finished it (I know that is what Mr. Card planned). Im also sure that the publishers realised everyone would buy the extra book so why not make an extra book?

The Answer to that question is a simple one. It has ruined what could have been the best series ever made.

Had Xenocide combined the two books, not only would the story in xenocide been shorter and probably better for it, but children of the mind oculd again have been shorter and again MUCH better for it. The extended pasages would have been cut out leaving good plot movement and a more exciting read.

Ender's Game we all know is a classic, and in my book Speaker For The Dead is just as good. However after Xenocide I was dissapointed and that has therefore left me impatient and rather annoyed when trying to read Children Of The Mind.

Im sorry if I have gone on. I have tried to back up my arguements to start a proper disccussion.

Could anyone link me o a sum up of the Childrenof The Mind Story? As I would still like to find out what happens.

I just hope that maybe one day Mr Card will once again write another classic novel. We all know he is capable, however he seems to be coasting on his early success nowadays.

EG and SFTD remain my all time favourite reads. I just wish i could add more to that list by Mr Card

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mr_porteiro_head
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In general, stories which are initially intended to be a single novel but which must be broken up into two or more books because it runs too long end up being dissapointing. Almost every time, I think they would have been better as a single novel.

The one exception I can think of is Shards of Honor and Barrayar by Bujold, but I think that's because she really matured as an author between those two books.

Well, another exception is I think Shadow of the Hegemon. It doesn't make that much of a difference there because it's so much a series novel and not a standalone novel at all.

quote:
Could anyone link me o a sum up of the Childrenof The Mind Story? As I would still like to find out what happens.
You want to know what happens? Here you go. [Wink]
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Launchywiggin
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I find it completely arguable that the latter two books of the Speaker series are any less enjoyable than any of Card's other books.

They are, however, different. If you're so impatient, go read the Da Vinci code. Children of the mind is about the characters and has some fascinating science fiction theory.

As far as other books from Card that are classics, you can add:

The Worthing Saga
Alvin Maker series
Shadow series
Maps in a Mirror (short stories, probably my favorite)
And lots more, but those are my favs.

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Idris
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Haha, yeah amazon usually tells he whole story in the reviews.

However is there a link that goes over the story in a bit of detail?

Im such an Orson fan that I keep saying to myself, i have to read it, but when I try I just cant get sucked in.

I have the shadow series and am pretty sure they will be good.

I also have the alvun maker series and im sure I will enjoy that. but I cant help but be annoyed, that with every series Mr Card does, by the end its like he isn't really putting all his effort in.

In fact in recent years it has seemed like none of the books he writes have his full attention. Otherwise you know they would be top class.

Maybe its a case of having too much on his plate. Or publishers pressure to release. I dont care what it is. I just know the time when Mr Card totally concentrates and gives all his attention on a book it will be brilliant. I just hopes he does it soon.

Oh and to Launchy Wiggin. I understand What your saying. But i stand by my points.

I have not made this topic to slate Mr Card, I have made it to express my views. Which is what a forum is a about. I have also backed up my views.

I am a massive Card fan. I really am. But in my honest opinions, his latest work is a mile off the quality of his earlier work.

Oh and trust me I apopreciate his scientific ideas. Otherwise I would not have enjoyed Xenocide, but still the aforementioned book and COTM is not to the quality that was displayed by Card in the previous two books in the Ender series.

Why would I want to read the Da Vinci Code [Wink]

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docmagik
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Hey, Idris.

It's a little bit of a misstatement to say that Card planned to finish the story with Xenocide--while it's true that he thought Xenocide would be the last book, that was when he thought he could include the story in Children of the Mind in that book. The story in Children of the Mind is one that he always intended to tell.

In fact, when he originally pitched it, years before, to TOR books, they told him it was a story he wasn't even mature enough as a writer to tell yet.

What you've got to remember about OSC is that unlike some authors, who try to tell the same story over and over in different ways, so that they can always be sure their audiences will love it, OSC deliberately tries not to do that. So you get Ender's Game--a military bit about kids--then you get Speaker for the Dead--a biology-driven murder mystery about community--and Xenocide--a metaphysical book about who we are as individuals and who we are together--and finally, Children of the Mind--a book about ideas, where they come from, and how they spread.

All of these are oversimplifications. Someone else making a list like this would have come up with different short summaries.

But the point is, it's not just the same story over and over. It's not just "Jason Bourne shows he's still smarter and tougher than anyone else in the world" in sequel after sequel.

While this is a good thing, because it keeps things fresh, it can be bad, because it means you're going to feel differently about each book. Since Children of the Mind is more about trying to get ideas spread across the galaxy and about Miro coming to grips with his newly discovered state than about anything that's an "exciting read" in the lots-of-explosions sense, you might not dig it the same way as Ender's Game with its battles or Speaker for the Dead with its murders or Xenocide with its riots.

Or it might be something else that you dug in those books that you're just not finding in this one.

Lots of us did dig it, and we're no more wrong about that than you are that you didn't dig it. It's just taste and personal prefrence--some folks like chocolate, some like butter pecan.

There was a similar discussion a while back about Heartfire. Lots of people said the quality had "fallen off" since the earlier books. Other people said--and my wife's one of these--that it was the best book in the series. Nobody's wrong, as long as everybody remembers that they're talking about how they felt about the book, not about how the book is. [Wink]

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Idris
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doc magik,

Firstly thanks for considering and responding to my arguement in a mature and clever fashion.

and I actually totally understand everything you have said and find that yes your are right in the way he does keep it varied.

my problem with children of the mind though is not that its different, but that it seems like he is dragging on a lot. yes the underlying theory is about ideas and how they spread as you say, I just think the flow that the earlier books had with plot as well as these ideas worked better.

and i think thats my overall point about this. The plots in xenocide and Children of the mind are lesser factors than in ender's game and Speaker.

they are still the glue that hold the books together but it seems more time is spent talking about theory's, and ideas rather then Card advancing an intrigueing plot like in the first two.

[ September 30, 2006, 02:10 PM: Message edited by: Idris ]

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Libbie
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Hmm! I really liked CotM, but then, I took it as a continuation of Xenocide, not as a stand-alone novel with the same characters.
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mr_porteiro_head
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quote:
Haha, yeah amazon usually tells he whole story in the reviews.

However is there a link that goes over the story in a bit of detail?

You misunderstood me. I was telling you that if you want to know what happens, you can always read the book.
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Soara
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I completely agree. CotM was so boring that I couldn't finish it on my own. My mom basically read it, told me if anything important happened in a chapter, and whether I could skip it. I just wanted to see what happened in the end -- and I was pretty satisfied with the end. [Smile]
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CRash
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I understand your problem, Idris. It was a couple of years ago when I first read the book--I was thirteen--and I didn't connect very well with it. Part of my problem was I really wanted more plot with the characters, and I felt that was more of a secondary issue in this book.

However, when I look back I'm glad I finished it; the character story gets really good near the end and it exciting to read. If you have to, just skim over the parts that don't interest you and read the ones that do. In my opinion, it's worth it, but you don't have to.

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Jiminy
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Would it really kill you morons to bash OSC's work some place besides his own forum? You all know how much he hates it. And even if you didn't, where the hell did you grow up that this wouldn't be considered jaw-droppingly rude? The guy reads these things, and posts here. Get over yourselves a little bit, maybe.
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Soara
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There's a difference between bashing and criticism. Any author who can't stand a little criticism doesn't deserve compliments.

This thread isn't the most constructive of critisicms, but at the same time, it's not very mean, either. Considering he's a guy who's had someone write a public essay comparing his prize character to Hitler, I don't think he'll mind this thread too much.

Just for the record, I love OSC's books to death, and thinking CotM was boring doesn't change that.

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Neon cricket
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I went to a book sighning a few years back and I had brought a copy of Children of the mind to get sighned in hopes that such a prize might interst my teach to finish it. After telling him my plan he had said that it was a hard one for people to finish. I personaly enjoyed reading it and I have been hoping for a posible close for what it left me hanging on. I was reminded of it a few days ago and bought the audio copy from I tunes to listen to on a trip. still enjoyed it though it was a little long in parts.
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hatrkr81
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Personally, Xenocide and Children of the Mind are two of my favorite books by OSC. They are the books that led me to read the rest of Card's works. I was just amazed that his writing was so diverse, and I think that has continued with his later writings. He can write anything! What I loved about Xenocide and CotM was the philosophy of it. I guess if that's not your thing and you need fast paced action, then you may find it boring, but I don't think that's a reason to insult the writer on HIS forum and refer to him as "coasting by on his early success." If anything, I think that Card has grown tremendously as a writer since Ender's Game.

I would also not go so far as to say that because you personally did not like the last two books in the Speaker series that they "ruined what could've been the best series ever written." That's an opinion, and while opinions are certainly welcomed on this forum, I think they should be constructive, especially knowing that the author reads this.

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Idris
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Guys,

Im not here bashing OSC.

As I have said, I love his writing, and he is hands down my favourite author (you just have to look at my book collection to know that).

I simply wanted to see what you people said (and in the back of my mind I guess I wanted to be persuaded to finish it)

Which now thnks to some mature andbrilliant replies, I will do.

For the record. this is an OSC discussion forum. so to say 'why come here' is not very logical.

Maybe I need more maturity and patience and maybe hen OSC'c more current work will become more accessable and enjoyable to me. hopefully reading through COTM will help em do that.

Thanks guys for convincing me. I still though stand by my arguement that maybe Mr Card has too much on his plate. and if he did sit down with one new idea and spent all hsi time doing it he could make another classic. As it seems like there is always three or four projects he is working on.

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Katarain
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I loved Children of the Mind. Definitely one of my favorites.

It has been my experience that often when I'm reading a book and feeling like the story is dragging on that I eventually realize it's MY problem. Either I have some personal stresses going on and just can't get into what I'm reading, or I am in such a hurry that I fail to get into it, or I'm just not mentally ready for it. The first reason is the most common, for me. (And sometimes, it really is the author's fault. I would be careful to simply jump to that conclusion, though, until I have given myself more opportunity to try reading the book.) And sometimes, I just need to get past one chapter.

I certainly think it's presumptious to suggest that Card has too much on his plate simply because you don't like a book he wrote many years ago. That simply doesn't follow. Your advice that he sit down with one idea and spend time on it is fairly naive. There's nothing wrong with working on several things at once if that's your style--and besides, you have no evidence that is how he writes. And really, it's completely irrelevant.

Maybe you should just wait a few years to finish the book.

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Idris
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I dont argue its presumptuous. It is simply something that i THINK is happening. It might not be. And I was not talking about when he wrote this book. I am talking in general though.

He has a lot of projects going on and unfinsihed, and I dont doubt that the publishers want him to release as many books per year as he can.And even with the immense amount of brilliance an auhor has, that cant be easy.

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BlueWizard
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It comes down to this, do you care?

Do you care what happens to Ender? Do you care about his fate, his love, his life, his destiny, his pain, his guilt? Do you care about the people of Lusitania?

Admittedly the book dragged at points, but I endured it because I wanted to know how it ended, and in the end I wasn't disappointed. What Ender goes through is very heartbreaking, especially considering his troubled life, but it also ends with hope.

I kept reading because I cared about the characters and their fate. In a sense, 'Enders Game' made me love Ender, and because I love him, I care about him and what happens to him. If you don't care about the characters, then it might be easy to see why it is boring, because as others have pointed out, it is a very character driven story.

That said, I also agree with Katarain. What is your motivation for reading the book and what is your current metal state? If you are distracted by real live 'things' then you may be having trouble concentrating on the book.

This happens to me in all aspects of entertainment. Once day I may be listening to my favorite artist and enjoying it. The next day, my mood shifts and I find it annoying. One day I may watch my favorite TV show and enjoy it. The next time I see it, I may find it boring. But it is not the music or the TV show that changes, it's me.

When you are ready to find out and actually care about the fate of the primary characters, then you probably will enjoy the book. It is an interesting complex story with many sub-plots, also with both touching humor and a bit of heartbreak.

So, as Katarain said, perhaps it is just a matter of timing. Maybe your simply not in the mood for whatever reason to get into the book right now. But, as I said, if you care about Ender and the other characters, then at some point you are going to want to know what happens to them and how it happens. Despite the fact that even I found bits of it long winded and repetative, I can easily overlook that to know the ultimate fate of the characters.

For what it's worth.

Steve/BlueWizard

[ October 03, 2006, 06:16 PM: Message edited by: BlueWizard ]

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pooka
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I got stalled in the first few chapters the first time I read it. But I tried it again later, and now I wouldn't think of reading the series without it. I had a similar experience with Earthborn.
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tmservo
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I am a much bigger fan of the SoTD series (SoTD, Xenocide, CoTM) then the Shadow, etc. But I can understand partly where you are coming from.

I felt as though SoTD/Xenocide had something that I find a bit lacking in the Shadow series, that being literary merit [Wink] [Smile] [Smile] [Smile]

SoTD/Xenocide/CoTM had a tendency to deal with big issues and internalize how the writer felt about them by playing it out with characters. I liked the pacing because I found it far more natural and sensical then the Shadow series.

Honestly, that was my biggest complaint with the Shadow series was that things moved so fast that it strained credibility and reason, military movements and planning that occurred too fast; wars fought and seemingly done in days, etc. It just didn't give enough momentum to the plot. It read too much like pulp.

That having been said, there are some moments within CoTM that I shrugged and felt as though OSC got trapped into a corner and painted a way out of it which didn't always fit. Peter & Wang Mu on Pacifica.. wherein we spend a great deal of time with Grace feigning hatred for them, and it turns out that Hey! they were waiting for them all along and had been doing Jane's bidding. That part I found a bit.. ugh.

But Xenocide was a brilliant book. In fact, Xenocide contains one of my favorite moments in any book, wherein Greggo recounts feeling as though he became the mob, and then as they drift away from him.

Is there some filler? Yeah, there are some portions with Gloriously Bright that I wish would have been trimmed or altered.

But I get where the storyline was going. Look, I'm not going to win over everyone with my contention that the SoTD series seemed to have a much grander, more thoughtful approach then Shadow series, etc. But that's my opinion and I'm sticking to it [Wink]

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0range7Penguin
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I too enjoyed the Speaker series more than the shadow series for depth and pacing. Loved both but the Shadow series seemed to have a lot more to do with the physical and the whole really deep theoreticalness to the Speaker series was great.

A war being over in days though is not that incredible. Just look at recent conflicts in the middle east. The peace takes a long time but large scale military conflicts are over quickly. When an army can be moved halfway around the world in less than a day wars don't last that long. The reason wars used to take a long time was that there was a lot of movement. Also with modern military technology a "line" would be blown apart almost as soon as it formed.

I first tried to read the Speaker series when I was in middle school and did find it kinda boring and hard at that time. But when I read it again a few years later it was fantastic and I understood so much more. Also I mostly wanted to know what happened to Ender the first time arround and the extra characters frustrated me. But reading it a second time I could focus more on there stories and enjoy them fully.

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JLM
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I agree with Idris. Xenocide and Children of the Mind should have been one book, not two. I found the first chapter of Xenocide to be practically unreadable. I ended up just skim reading all the chapters dealing with Path. In the end I didn't feel like I missed anything. COTM was slightly better in pacing, but by then I didn't care about the characters anymore.
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pooka
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Well, I don't eat chocolate anymore. Must be because it's not any good.
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Soara
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There is such thing in this world as a boring book...
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docmagik
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You skipped the Path stuff? Wow.

I read the first half of the Path story from Xenocide in Analog as a separate story. I had no Idea it was tied to the Ender saga and thought the story of the little Godspoken girl was the most amazing thing I'd ever read, and was shocked when Ender and Jane showed up partway through.

I still love the story of Gloriously Bright, and find it entirely appropriate that the book starts and ends when her part of Ender's story ends.

I guess what I'm saying is the fact you were waiting for Ender to show up might have affected the way you read the story, and you might want to go back and try it again later, now that you know more what to expect.

Or it could be that you don't find tracing wood grain lines in the floor to be interesting. There's always that, too. [Wink]

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Idris
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Yeah even though you said you agreed with me, I thought the OCD part of xeocide was a great story and well exccuted.

You guys have convinced me and I will read the book, but I cant say im looking forward to it (hopefully when I get back into it with a positive attitude I can start to appreciate it more and be more driven to complete it.)

Also as someone has pointed out, im just starting university, so its porbably a stressful time in my life. Hopefully thats part of the reason.

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Pelegius
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I did find Children of the Mind less enjoyable than Speaker for the Dead (by far my favorite of his books) or Xenocide, but I prefer the style to the hyper-clipped unadorned prose of Empire.
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Shawshank
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I recently reread Children of the Mind (the entire SftD series to be precise) and I enjoyed it much more this time than any other time in the past- in fact I think I may enjoy it more than Xenocide now. SImply because the ending was brilliant and beautiful- that final scene with Peter talking to Quara with Jane and everyone else there- talking about the growth of humanity. I found it inspiring in a way. But yeah- not to mention- it's just cool- the weirdness involved.
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BaoQingTian
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I'm in the middle of Lost Boys. I really don't know what it is about OSC, but his books are so different, yet no matter which one I get I can't put down. Thinking analytically about Lost Boys, I'm not sure why I keep wanting to read it. If I had to tell someone what the story is about, I'd probably fail miserably.

More on topic, I tried to read CotM when it came out, I believe I was about 16 or 17 at the time. I couldn't finish it. When I picked it up again 7 very eventful years later, I really liked it. Like dogmagik said about Card needing more experience as a writer to tell the story he wanted to, I think I needed more experience as a person in order to read it.

I'm not saying you'll pick it up when you're older and love it (truthfully I have no idea of your age), just sharing what the book was like for me, YMMV. [Dont Know]

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SoaPiNuReYe
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I for one could not finish Children of the Mind. Thats probably because like Bao said, I'm not old enough to appreciate it. But I'll read it eventually.
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Libbie
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quote:
Originally posted by Idris:
and if he did sit down with one new idea and spent all hsi time doing it he could make another classic. As it seems like there is always three or four projects he is working on.

A lot of creative types work better with more than one project going on at once. I know I prefer to work that way. I'm by no means a published writer, and not nearly as good as OSC (alas), but I know I always have three or four novels in various stages of development at all times. I'm also a professional photographer, and I'll scatter my work hours between multiple wedding albums and sprinkle in work on a few other photo projects at the same time. When I sculpt, I work on five or six sculptures in the span of a month or so. It may not be the most technically efficient use of my time, but across the board, I feel that the end result of all my intermingled multitasking is superior to when I make myself focus on one project at a time.

I'm sure I probably have some kind of wiring in my head that's not right, that makes me do creative things this way. But it works! [ROFL]

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Libbie
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quote:
Originally posted by BaoQingTian:
Thinking analytically about Lost Boys, I'm not sure why I keep wanting to read it. If I had to tell someone what the story is about, I'd probably fail miserably.

I recommend that you don't try. [Wink] I tried telling my aerobics class last week about it, as I'm in the middle of it, too. Those who didn't look at me in horrified silence yelled, "WHY would you READ that?!"

And then I tried to explain that it was really a good book! It was going nowhere. Don't even try, dude.

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GodSpoken
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LOL! I find I am frequently at odds with the taste of others these days.

I found CotM an excellent followup and closure piece because it took you through exactly the kind of roller coaster emotions and spurting action that life itself takes on when problem solving involves any level of desperation.

I also found myself doing more belly chuckling and reading scenes aloud to other people than I have in a long time.

I guess its all in what trips your sense of familiarity.

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dinzy
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I thought Xenocide/CoTM were the best part of the Ender Series nad am still eagerly awaiting the follow up book.
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Idris
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Well I know this may sound contradictory and if someone new read over my topic they would wonder what the hell is wrong with me but I have picked the book back up.

and im through 220 pages and I just want to say thank you for persuading me.

It is NOT his best book ever, but I still really have enjoyed it.

I think it was my state of mind. I was stressed with settleing in to university and everything. I am now very much enjoying the read and realise that orson really is a total genius.

Thanks again for presenting legitimat arguement instead of saying 'your taste sucks, you shouldn't read it' like so many other message boards would have done.

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Dan_Frank
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I just want to say that I think chalking it up to an age thing is unfair.

I read the Ender series when I was 13. Speaker for the Dead was my favorite (of course), but I actually enjoyed Children of the Mind *more* than Xenocide. I absolutely loathed Qing Jao and every page with her in it was agony, whereas all the primary characters of Children of the Mind were a delight to read about.

I'd probably enjoy reading Peter and Wang-Mu discuss a stapler for an hour, just because of their banter.

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RunningBear
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I think it has [I]something[I\] to do with age, when I was 12 I tried to read Moby Dick and could not stand it, but when I was 17 I read it again and it was an easy and enjoyable read.
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hatrkr81
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Glad you're enjoying it Idris and I'm glad you gave it a second chance. It really is an incredible, emotion evoking book. Glad to see we turned you to the dark side [Wink]
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Idris
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Not the dark side [Wink] , you just opened me eyes to another way of looking at Orson's writing. And its quite superb.
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pooka
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:tents fingers:
Excellent.

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hatrkr81
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quote:
Originally posted by pooka:
:tents fingers:
Excellent.

[ROFL]
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Zotto!
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I think some people can be a bit thrown by Card's work because the stories are about as varied as they can be and still legitimately be called a "series".

I mean, EG is down and dirty military fiction with soul, Speaker is an culture/species-clash murder-mystery mixed with a family drama, Xenocide runs the gamut from virus outbreaks and evolution to religious transformation, and Children of the Mind is a cool exploration of cosmological ideas, stories, the distribution of power, and how they all run together and influence each other. How much more diverse can one series get?

Needless to say, this is one of the things I appreciate the most about Card's writing. [Smile]

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