posted
I just finished reading the book and am not quite sure what to think about it...
My complaints: There are places where the plot bogs down and the book seems to drag. The mechs felt a little too science fiction and reminded me a little too much of AT-ST's from Star Wars. Also the entire part regarding Verus's lair felt way too much like James Bond - I even pictured all the henchmen running around in brightly colored, matching uniforms.
My likes: The beginning of the book was written in the style of Tom Clancy and it really got me into the mood. I liked how there were feints about if the radical extremeists on the right or left were going to attempt to take over the government before dramatically revealing it. Also, how you never revealed who was behind the assasinations of the President and Vice-President and at the end pointing that Torrent was following the way Rome transitioned from Republic to Empire. (Although it was a little heavy handed as I had already worked out that Torrent was pretty much behind everything halfway through the book.)
All in all, it was a decent read and I enjoyed it; although I don't feel it was quite up to the caliber I'm used to from Mr. Card's works.
Jesse
P.S. The part talking about how John Paul was bottomless and then "... and the carpet more or less cleaned up from the fudgesicle he had ..." made me think he left a different kind of brown stain for a moment Posts: 175 | Registered: Jan 2005
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posted
OK everybody, hold on - I've got to recall all the copies and fix this stuff before anybody else reads it ...
Posts: 2005 | Registered: Jul 1999
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posted
I wasn't meaning any criticism about the book, I enjoyed it a lot. I was hoping that a few others obtained "advance" copies of the book and that we could discuss it.
Jesse
P.S. Scott R - check your inbox for my info Posts: 175 | Registered: Jan 2005
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posted
I skimmed Empire page-by-page in the bookstore last night (it took me about 45 minutes), and I didn't find myself interested in the main thriller plot. I wanted more discussion of how Americans got to hating each other enough to fight. Maybe a novel from Torrent's point of view (or, more likely, about Torrent but from the point of view of a close associate) would be more uniformly interesting to me; perhaps the sequel will be that way.
Posts: 781 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
I just finished it myself. I listened to the unabridged audiobook. Overall I really enjoyed it. I didn't care for the mechs either, or the hover cycles. I dislike mechs in general because they are not believable. There is no situation where a vehicle would not be better off with wheels or tracks. I was happy when Malich pointed this out. I think the story would have worked fine if the Progressive's just had ordinary weapons. The story was great and my dislike of a couple elements didn't hamper my enjoyment of the book. I liked the Foundation reference. The book actually made me think about Hari Seldon right before his name was mentioned.
One minor error, the Army generally frowns on people wearing fatigues around town so it wasn't realistic for Malich and Coleman to put them on to go visit ground zero.
quote:I think the story would have worked fine if the Progressive's just had ordinary weapons.
That wouldn't have fit with their character as presented: spineless and unwilling to engage in honest combat. It also would have made for non-differentiated sides in the video game.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
OSC, you shouldn't read this thread. I'm a big fan of your work, and please go write Rasputin.
Anyway...
It kept me interested, right up until
SPOILERS!
right up until Rube got shot. I had identified more with him than with Cole, even though I suspected all along that he was being played by Palpatine -- I mean Torrent.
After that it was finish reading to find out what happened, but I wasn't quite as into it.
Posts: 454 | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Omega M.: Sorry, Selran. I knew you misspelled it, but Empire itself actually says "Hari Selden."
I actually joined the board specifically to mention this. I'm a big fan of Mr. Card's work and I'm glad he seems to be very honest about his beliefs and opinions, but getting the most-used name of one of science fiction's oldest and most "Foundational" series wrong is just silly.
For SHAME.
In all seriousness, parts of the book I liked, parts I didn't. I've actually been having daydreams about this exact scenario playing out in real life lately, and lo and behold I catch a copy sitting on the shelf at work (Books a Million). I read it in just over a day.
Anything specific beyond that has already been said by other people, I think. I do think the mechs could have been a little more interesting.. I'm reminded of the old cartoon walking spiders for some reason.
Posts: 3 | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Orson Scott Card: OK everybody, hold on - I've got to recall all the copies and fix this stuff before anybody else reads it ...
Hey, some of us like henchmen.
Posts: 1006 | Registered: Jun 2006
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quote:right up until Rube got shot. I had identified more with him than with Cole, even though I suspected all along that he was being played by Palpatine -- I mean Torrent.
I had to pull off the road so I could fiddle with my iPod to replay this part and make sure I heard it right. I felt the same way but I changed my mind after Cole became.
Posts: 212 | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote:I think the story would have worked fine if the Progressive's just had ordinary weapons.
That wouldn't have fit with their character as presented: spineless and unwilling to engage in honest combat. It also would have made for non-differentiated sides in the video game.
I have thought about this some more and you're right. A story with the same basic theme could have been told without the super high tech but this story needed it.
Posts: 212 | Registered: Nov 2006
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posted
Empire was a great read, albeit predictable in the sense that Torrent turned out to be the mastermind. Reub dying was shocking; I hope that DeeNee angle is cleared up. I want to know how somebody as sharp as Reub can be partially fooled by those above him and totally fooled by the one he works with. The fatal mistake of blind faith?
These alternative history yarns are great. I liked the reference to my birth city Torrance that OSC (and Harry Turtledove). I did have to imagine this taking place in around 2012 - sometime after the Bush administration so that I could believe the effective foreign policy part.
The first part of the book was masterfully done. The second part felt more like what the 2nd Pirates of the Carribean movie was to me - good, but with something to be desired (it may just be a conclusion to the trilogy). Still, I look forward to the other two books and might even try the game myself.
PS: Do bullets and eye sockets just appeal to OSC? I noticed it twice in this book, and it made me think of Bean and Achilles.
Posts: 2 | Registered: Dec 2006
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posted
I read most of it in a night and finished off the rest just now (had a work conference today so I only just finished it).
I would have loved if the first 1/2 of the book was much longer than it was - the political and historical basis and premise of the book was excellent (and since I was trained as a historian it appeals to me on so many different levels). While I still think it was a great read it did feel like it lost something when it began to focus on the action (or was that because I lost the attachment I had to the character of Reub and Cole just didn't have my attention at that point?).
I'm definitely looking forward to the next book in the series.
(By the way, does anyone think that the tanks on the cover of Empire look like Halo's Scorpion tanks?)
Posts: 3 | Registered: Dec 2006
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posted
"PS: Do bullets and eye sockets just appeal to OSC? I noticed it twice in this book, and it made me think of Bean and Achilles."
Maybe he did it as a nod to Bean and Achilles? I'm pretty sure he used "Jeesh" as a nod to the Shadow series.
Posts: 2054 | Registered: Nov 2005
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I predict in the next book Nick has things figured out about Torrent and he wants justice for his dad (cause don't you just wonder about Nick?). Through his mom he gets an internship on capitol hill and . . . well it turns out it doesn't matter because just then the Formics attack for the first time and . . .
I'm still thinking about why, but I loved the part of the story where Cole interacts with the Guardsman on the Washington/Idaho border. Also, my favorite line is Cole breaking the tension with, "Look, I was hoping there'd be cookies."
posted
Actually, I find the vast majority of random jokes and humorous lines in OSC books to be not funny. Lots of times they feel so out of place with the tone of the rest of the scene that I have to stop and think, "Gee, what's OSC trying to get across with this?"
Posts: 781 | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote: how Americans got to hating each other enough to fight.
Because the news media makes money by making people fearful. People who want to get in the news have to do something that will create anxiety. In a way our society is like a cat with it's own ill humor to swing it by the tail. Or whatever Everett said.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
[quote]Because the news media makes money by making people fearful.[quote]
I don't think it's just the news media who profits from, or solely propagates, this culture of fear. There is a good living to be made scaring anyone who listens. Some Christian sects even make it a main tenet of their faith. Businesses keep their employees in line using the same tactics, and if you read Card's War Watch screed right before the election, he was using fear to influence your vote.
Invoking fear to further an argument is a blunt instrument, possibly justified, but like violence, it should leave both people feeling somehow lesser for the experience.
posted
See, I'm a fan of shame. It's not that I think that if you don't do X, something bad is going to happen to you. I think that you don't do X, you should merely be ashamed of the quality of your character.
quote: Actually, I find the vast majority of random jokes and humorous lines in OSC books to be not funny. Lots of times they feel so out of place with the tone of the rest of the scene that I have to stop and think, "Gee, what's OSC trying to get across with this?"
If someone makes a joke, there doesn't have to be anything someone is trying to "get across," maybe they are just trying to be funny or cute. If you don't think it's funny, that's fine, it just isn't your kind of humor.
Posts: 159 | Registered: Jan 2005
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Nowhere, S, I was just making a comment for the fun of it because I was intruiged by the character of that boy.
Posts: 159 | Registered: Jan 2005
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posted
I just started reading Empire, and I'm kicking myself for not pointing out the shift from Farsi to Arabic in Malich's notes when we had the first five chapters up. Maybe it used to say Arabic both places. Still, probably just a typo level error.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
What I really want to know is the subject of Reuben's doctoral dissertation. Or did the Army order him to drop out after he passed his orals?
Posts: 100 | Registered: Oct 2006
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posted
As a novel, I didn't find Empire up to the standards of either Ender's Game or Alvin Maker, but that's a bit much to expect every time. It still held my attention, probably because the idea of America ceasing to be a republic and becoming an empire (which I believe to be a real danger, although not for the reasons Card suggests in the novel) is high on my concerns right now.
The problem is I really don't think he's got his finger on what could cause the transition. Culture wars like the one we're suffering through now are not new; we've been there several times since the Constitution was ratified, and only once did it lead to civil war. Nor did that civil war come anywhere near giving us an Augustus.
Rome didn't lose the Republic because she had a civil war but because civil wars became endemic, a symptom of the failure of her governing structures (designed for a city state) to handle her changed reality (a great empire). America's governing structures weren't designed for an empire, either. They can handle a big country, but they assume that all or at least most of those subject to the government's authority are citizens with a say in governance. Rome became an Empire because Rome first acquired an empire, and the same could happen to America -- is already happening actually. The maintenance of a professional military, the maintenance of military bases around the world, the habit of military intervention all over the globe, the resulting constant state of war, the habitual government secrecy and lack of public accountabiility necessary to do all this, the wealth flowing into the country from pressured trade treaties, the concentration of that wealth into too few hands with resulting concentration of political power, all of this is the slow death of democracy. We cannot be at once a democracy and an empire -- or a superpower, which means the same thing.
Posts: 8 | Registered: Dec 2006
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posted
Personally I loved the book from cover to cover. Just finished it last night. And, while of course I was shocked and upset to see Reuben die, I still liked Cole alot, and he along with the rest of the story definitely kept my interest.
I think one of my favorite scenes in the book was when Cecily went back to the house for the first time after Reuben died and he just described her catharsis so perfectly. Once again, very human characters.
posted
I scanned this thread and was still surprised at Reuben getting shot. Of course, it was in its early stages.
Actually, what I might like is a prequel to get to know the jeesh better. They were fascinating guys, but it was just too much to absorb while I was reading this. Maybe a re-read will improve that aspect.
Boy, people who come into the shadow series not having read Ender's Game would have that effect as well.
posted
Fundamentally, the book is solid. But the book has a real problem.. by using "real" people, commentators, and events of the present day, it is almost immediately dated. It's one of those books that just can't survive the test of time, because by using so many pop-culture references, the book has a tendency to take the reader out of the prose. No matter whether Card likes it or not, and pro or con, the reader will bring their preconceived notions of what they think of characters like O'Reilly, or Fox News, etc.
Even some of the references within the books to hardware and items tend to be jarring in that they often come across as product placement "we'll hear the news on XM" and I'm busy thinking "why don't they have SIRIUS" rather then paying attention to the narrative.
This is a book that has at it's heart a hell of a storyline. But by involving so many "real" people, it snaps the listener out of the alternative world being setup in the book and instead brings too many real world opinions and thoughts into the way it reads and as such, the book is far less powerful.
Part of what makes a book have greater meaning is your ability to detach all inbuilt prsumptions and look at the ideas as they are presented. I think Card sabotages himself by using so many references to well known persons, products, and real world events.
Posts: 202 | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
Hypothetical situation though, if we dispensed with this policy of "ruling-by-proxy" through Pinochets, Aristides, Batistas, Somozas, Noriegas, Husseins, Mubaraks, Shahs, and Marcoses and incorporated soverign nations into our union first as US Territories, then as US States, would the US then be an empire or a global federation?
The USA started out as a federation of states and according to the US Constitution, we still are. We grew from a federation of 13 former colonies to a federation of 50 states + several overseas posessions.
When the Falconist Party began to advocate admitting soverign nations into the US as states and territories, people accused the movement of of being imperialistic. However, I would champion that the formal incorporation of nations into the union would be more benign and less imperialist than the current policy of ruling-by-proxy.
For one thing, the people of nations that America rules-by-proxy don't have much say in how their governments are run, don't enjoy the freedoms and rights Americans enjoy, nor do they share in America's prosperity. If these nations were first annexed as US Territories, rebuilt, and conferred US Statehood, then the people of these nations will be guarranted by our own Constitution the power to elect their own state and local governments and have their rights protected by our Constitution.
Another thing is that not only these new states can elect their own leaders, but they will also have representation in US Congress. What if our invasion fo Canada succeeded in 1812? What if we annexed all of Mexico after WW2? What if Cuba, Haiti and the Phillipines became US States? What if the USA annexed Germany, Japan, and Korea after WW2 and they became US States? Would their Senators and Representatives in Congress voted for the Iraq War?
Another thing is if the USA did expand into a global union of states, then the USG would actually have to delegate more power to the state and local governments because the US would be too big to be governed centrally. Either that or the US would have to restructure itself to govern a larger union of states.
Maybe the US becoming a global union may smack of empire. But if it this is considered an empire, it looks like it would be the empire of liberty that Thomas Jefferson called for.
Posts: 14 | Registered: Dec 2006
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posted
Maybe this will be described in OSC's next book, but if the USA truly became an empire, what would this empire look like? What would its structure be like? What programs would be implemented? Would the US continue to rule-by-proxy or formally annex nations like Iraq and Afghanistan? Would the USG still be headed by a President or an Emperor? Would the USA still be called just that or would it's name change to the "American Empire"?
Posts: 14 | Registered: Dec 2006
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It's not really a problem, it's a feature But seriously, it's a style decision he decided to go with. It's not like somethine he couldn't stop himself from doing. I'd guess it was to create a feeling of reality alongside the mechs and hoverbikes.
P.S. Part of the idea was that the emporer respect the forms of the republic. It was very deft how he laid the groundwork for removal of the 2 term limit by taking office before his first inauguration. He wouldn't be eligible to run in the 2012 election.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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quote:Originally posted by pooka: It was very deft how he laid the groundwork for removal of the 2 term limit by taking office before his first inauguration. He wouldn't be eligible to run in the 2012 election.
Maybe I don't understand what you're saying, but I don't think what you're saying is accurate.
A president can only run for election two times or serve a maximum of 10 years.
For example, if the president steps down/resigns with less than two years left on his term, the vice president would take over and could run for election twice, serving a total of 10 years. A vice president who took and served more than two years of a president's remaining term could only run for election once.
Posts: 50 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
There are a number of ways Torrent can stay in power.
One way is if he served is full two-terms as President, then serve as Vice-President and/or chief-of-staff of a subsequent Presidency through a "figurehead" President(s). If he served as Presdient, then V.P. under another administration, that is 16 years. And there are no term limits on the White House Chief-of-staff.
Another idea is that Torrent would be so popular that he could inspire both parties in Congress as well as all state legislatures to repeal the Constitutional amendment that limits the President to two terms. And that is just the first way an amendment can be added to the Constitution.
Little do people know about the second way because it has never been used. The second way is when 2/3 of the states ratify an amendment to the Constitution first, when that happens, the U.S. Congress has to hold a Constitutional Convention to amend the US Constitution. When that happens, the Convention need not be limited to that particular amendment. In fact, the Convention can tack on several amendments or come out with a whole new Constitution! That is why the second method of amending the US Constitution has never been used.
Posts: 14 | Registered: Dec 2006
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posted
If he were to do it the way Augustus did, he wouldn't remain president, but would create a new office above the presidency with control of the military and veto power over all acts of Congress (no possibility of override), leaving the presidency to others who would continue to be elected. (Augustus was also Pontifex Maximus, which would not be possible in America without repealing the First Amendment.)
Posts: 8 | Registered: Dec 2006
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posted
The VP thing was suggested about Clinton and/or Reagan, and I believe it was not legal.
I was just thinking today what would happen if someone now used OSC's method of blowing up the white house to blow up the white house. I actually think it's kind of needlessly complex, but it would have had to been something no one would coincidentally think of, like, say, just touring DC in a motorhome and shooting the rocket launcher out the window.
It's funny, motor homes are illegal in Ocean City MD due to the hotel lobby, but not DC.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
Even creating an office above the Presidency would require a Constitutional amendment. And what would that office be called?
There is another route he could take. He could subordinate the USA to a world federation with himself as head of a world government. He could leave the American Presidency to become President of the world.
Posts: 14 | Registered: Dec 2006
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posted
Come to think of it, wasn't Augustus Consul before he became "Imperator"? I thought he held several offices simultaneously.
Napoleon modeled the French Constitution for the Consulate after the Roman republic with his office being First Consul and his legislature featuring a Tribunate, A Senate, a Legislative Corps, and the State Council (which doubled as his cabinet). After a few years, he amended that constitution to entrust the whole government to his office as Emperor and he then modeled the French Empire after the Roman Empire.
When Hindenburg died. Hitler combined his own office of Chancellor with Hindenburg's office of President to become "Fuherer and Reich Chancellor" which then got shortened to "Fuerher".
Mussolini refered himself as "Head of Government" as well as Il Duce. Mussolini held of offices of Prime Minister, Minister of Economics, and several cabinet posts simulatenously. However, Mussolini allowed the King to remain head of state. Mussolini proclaimed his nation to be the "Revived Roman Empire.
Posts: 14 | Registered: Dec 2006
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posted
I was wondering if it was me. I am glad/saddened to see that I was not the only who thought Empire was a disappointment. I enjoyed the first 200 pages, then it just slowed down. I'm glad, because it's not just me, saddened because it is the first time I wasn't thrilled with a OSC book. I hope it does well. But, there are other unfinished Card series *cough* Maker *cough* that I would love to see completed.
Posts: 52 | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
I think Torrent is going to keep the office of President. However, the title may change or the office of POTUS is going to have very enhanced powers.
Posts: 14 | Registered: Dec 2006
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posted
I can't believe someone didn't mention the funniest quote in the book...
Cole: "...What do you think it takes to build one of those? Two million? Six?" "Real costs or Pentagon costs?" asked Reuben. "Microsoft Costs." "These aren't a Microsoft product," said Reuben. "Developed in secret, though." "Yeah, but they don't lock up."
I nearly fell off the couch when I read that!
Posts: 636 | Registered: Apr 2002
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