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» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Discussions About Orson Scott Card » Can I Post A Qeustion?

   
Author Topic: Can I Post A Qeustion?
I Am The War Chief
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I posted on the other side as im not sure it is appropriate for this one but the sum up is dante's view of hell vs what i have been told about the church if this is not the place ill continue the discussion on the other side but frankly i enjoy this sides discussion more [Razz]
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vonk
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quote:
Can I Post A Question?
Apparently.

Can you post a sentence?

Apparently not.

[Razz]

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mr_porteiro_head
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quote:
Originally posted by vonk:
quote:
Can I Post A Question?
Apparently.
I was beaten out of the gate. [Grumble]
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Will B
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I don't understand the question.
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RunningBear
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He is asking what is the difference between Dante's Hell and the Catholic Hell.
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Hookt_Un_Fonix
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Dante's hell was his idea of catholic hell. Dante was catholic right?
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RunningBear
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He was, but is the dogmatic hell the hell portrayed in the inferno?
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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
quote:
Originally posted by vonk:
quote:
Can I Post A Question?
Apparently.
I was beaten out of the gate. [Grumble]
Gosh darnit! [Razz]
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stihl1
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quote:
Originally posted by RunningBear:
He was, but is the dogmatic hell the hell portrayed in the inferno?

If I remember right, the last thing I remember the old Pope saying about Hell was not that it was filled with lakes of fire and torture, but rather hell was the existing in the absense of God. Without His love and without His light.

Dante's vision of Hell was just something he made up.

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A Rat Named Dog
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It's always weird to me when someone takes characters in a story, "sends them to hell", and whaddya know, hell is exactly the way Dante described it. When Dante made it up.

It reminds me of an experiment that some folks did to figure out children's grasp on reality versus fiction. There were several questions:

1. Is Batman real?
2. Is Robin real?
3. Is Spongebob real?
4. Does Batman think that Robin is real?
5. Does Batman think that Spongebob is real?

A large majority of the kids answered "no" to question 5, indicating that they had set boundaries between fictional universes at a very young age.

Apparently, some authors never managed to do the same thing [Smile]

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I Am The War Chief
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Actually Virgil created hell in the Aeneid [Razz] the church took his idea of hell and made it their own, that is why in the Inferno Virgil is allowed to hang out in his castle, so to sum up Hell is just a creation of man?
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King of Men
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It's worth pointing out that the Pope was also making things up. Even if we grant the actual premise of Hell existing, being Pope of the Catholic church does not give you a private line down there, outside of Jack Chick comics. Dante's version is just as good as the Pope's: They are both saying what they think a place is like, that they've never seen. Dante, however, has at least a certain amount of scriptural support; there are several references in the Gospels to "the fire that dieth not" and suchlike fun things.
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Survivor
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I actually watched a Batman-Scooby-doo crossover cartoon the other day. It was sooooo surreal. Pretty funny, too.

Just to stay on topic, I liked the portrayal of hell in Bill and Ted's Bogus Journey. I doubt that it would pass anyone's theological muster, but it was at least personalized and "spiritual" torment.

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charles_martel
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"It's worth pointing out that the Pope was also making things up. Even if we grant the actual premise of Hell existing, being Pope of the Catholic church does not give you a private line down there, outside of Jack Chick comics. Dante's version is just as good as the Pope's: They are both saying what they think a place is like, that they've never seen. Dante, however, has at least a certain amount of scriptural support; there are several references in the Gospels to "the fire that dieth not" and suchlike fun things."

In my opinion, both views are not "made up:" they're taken from the author's idea of the worst thing possible. I don't think the point is to contemplate the nature of hell; rather, I think Dante and the Pope started from their conviction that Hell is the most terrible place anyone can be, and made that Hell. And besides, Dante's Hell quite clearly demonstrates the absence of God, so it's not really in contradiction.

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JLM
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The Divine Comedy, written by Dante Alighieri, was meant to be taken as treatise of the nature of the afterlife. Rather, it was much more a statement of the political and socialogical statement. The construct of Inferno was based on the 9 great vices acording to Greek tradition. He then added Limbo as a the top ring, as a way of honoring the great non-christians of the past. Most of the conversations Dante has with the characters during his descent can be grouped into to catagories. The first is how the shade (the soul in hell) describes his sins and then makes up excuses for them (i.e. it wasn't my fault). The second type of conversation is when Dante and the shade discuss the events either happening on earth or events that will happen.

Purgatory continues in the same vein, but is has the added element of reflecting Dante's own personal struggles in life. The big difference between the souls here and the souls in inferno is that these souls take responsibility for their sins. There is also plenty of politics discussed as well. The structure of Purgatory is based on the seven deadly sins in christian tradition.

Paradise leaves Virgil behind. The imagary and language becomes more abstract, but again there is much discussion Florentine politics.

While the Divine Comedy uses a highly spiritual framework to tell the story, the ultimate message is more about the nature of man. If you read Inferno, make sure you also read Purgatory and Paradise to read the complete story.

And when your done go read The Decamerone by Giovanni Boccaccio, often referred to as "the human commedy." It takes place during the black death. 10 youths journey to the countryside and tell eachother stories. Boccaccio uses some of the same characters from the Divine Comedy (a nod to Dante), but is written in a more colloquial style (i.e. not a poem) and has a lot more sex.

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King of Men
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quote:
Originally posted by charles_martel:
In my opinion, both views are not "made up:" they're taken from the author's idea of the worst thing possible. I don't think the point is to contemplate the nature of hell; rather, I think Dante and the Pope started from their conviction that Hell is the most terrible place anyone can be, and made that Hell.

I must say that I do not see the difference between this and making things up. It's not as though either one of them actually knew anything about the nature of hell, or had any shred of evidence for its existence.
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Survivor
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Well...Dante might have actually seen something, but it probably wasn't hell. Hell is actually rather nice, compared to what life is like for most humans.
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I Am The War Chief
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I apparently missed this last October however the new pope has changed the entry requirement for limbo [Razz]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article659379.ece

In an effort to save the unbaptised babies, this seems to line up nicely with thier anti abortion efforts. Why should victims of "murder" be seperated from god . . this whole situation is confusing.

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Will B
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Here's what the catechism of the Catholic Church says: 'As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them," allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism.'

So this is a new development, but it's an addition, not a reversal.

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