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Author Topic: Enders Shadow - Something to say
Zirak
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I would like to say a few things about the book that came from heaven: Ender's Shadow
That book is one of the best books I have ever red, and so I have a few bad things to say about this book:
Orson Scott Card, you almost ruined this book by entering the word "God" a lot, and if you count the number of times that this book reminds the word God is over 150 times! and even a few pages that is only about God and his meaning about humans.
That thing almost ruined the book, and I think some of you think the same like me.

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TomDavidson
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God.
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Shan
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Do you mean "deity", Tom?
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Perplexity'sDaughter
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Here's the thing: as a writer, OSC is not obligated to completely omit religion from his works just because it makes other people uncomfortable.
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BlueWizard
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It strikes me that all the references to God are related to Bean has he tries to resolve his place in the world. Carlotta's words must have touched him, but at the same time, Bean sees no evidence of God in the horrible world he lived in. So, part of Bean's struggle across the entire series is between finding his human and his spiritual place in the world.

That seems appropriate and in context to me.

Steve/BlueWizard

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Tara
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Thinking back, I can't easily remember a significant reference to God in Ender's Shadow; I'm not saying they're not there, I'm simply saying that to me, I don't remember religion being very important. Granted, it has been two or three years since I last read it, but, still.

You must be pretty darn uncomfortable with religion for that to almost ruin the book for you, especially since you find the book so wonderful otherwise. Even though I'm not religious at all, I found the parts about Sister Carlotta to be very touching.


p.s. I also find it amusing that you say the book "came from heaven", in light of the rest of your post. [Smile]

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Dr Strangelove
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quote:
Originally posted by Zirak:
That thing almost ruined the book, and I think some of you think the same like me.

I don't.
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Perplexity'sDaughter
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quote:
Originally posted by Tara:

p.s. I also find it amusing that you say the book "came from heaven", in light of the rest of your post. [Smile]

I thought that last bit a little ironic too.‹
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I Am The War Chief
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I agree, clearly OSC is involved in a MASSIVE literary conspiracy to subliminally implant the word GOD in our minds...just cause I am paranoid doesnít mean they arenít after me!
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TomDavidson
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You never know. This guy might be deeply religious, and just objects to use of the word "G-d" in print.
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Javert
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As a general rule of thumb, if you don't want to read a book with the word 'god' used a lot, perhaps you should avoid books that have a nun as a main character?

Just sayin'. [Smile]

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Harish
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I am very new to OSC and just started reading the Ender's saga and I am reading Ender's Shadow and I have not yet completed it . I think he never used the word God in unnecessary places but to describe the character of a nun and her beliefs, other than that he never discuss anything about God except some places where it is necessary. Its impossible not use the word God when u have
quote:
Javert
books that have a nun as a main character?


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SteveRogers
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quote:
Originally posted by I Am The War Chief:
...just cause I am paranoid doesnít mean they arenít after me!

That's from a Nirvana song. Maybe something else too.
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pooka
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I think if the objection were to putting the word in print, he wouldn't have written it out in his post. Also, he was bothered by "a few pages that is only about God and his meaning about humans". So it seems the irritation is more topical than lexical. Just sayin'.
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Syndicateman
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I didn't think anything of the religious undertones when I first read the Ender books a few years ago.

And then I read that Card is a mormon and then I couldn't stop myself from remembering all of Carlotta's little sayings. And ever since then I have been barely able to make it through Children of the Mind because of the obvious add-ins that feel out of place. Like EVERYONE getting married and having kids -Sure, it's a good plot device- but it gets really old after you do it to most of your characters on purpose AND then there was the gay guy that went straight in the Homecoming series. Give me a break....

I could go on and on, but let's face it. The word God is only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to Card. Sure that may press your buttons but I don't like it (I live in Georgia and have to deal with religious fanatics too much for my own liking).

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Puppy
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quote:
I didn't think anything of the religious undertones when I first read the Ender books a few years ago.

And then I read that Card is a mormon and then I couldn't stop myself from remembering all of Carlotta's little sayings.

So wait ... Card's books weren't a problem until you knew he was Mormon, and then you felt like that stuff was out of place?
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I Am The War Chief
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Zirak
best books I have ever RED!

Sorry but no one else had pointed it out yet (shrugs)
And Mr. Rodgers , I have no idea where that line is from but I dont claim it as my own lol It just sums up the conspiracy theorist in me [Razz]

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Shawshank
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Why would religious people including religious ideas and characters in their fiction be a necessarily bad thing.

And if you've never noticed- many if not most of the characters I've read from OSC tend to be fairly logical- and I've read enough OSC to understand his ideas about sex and marriage to realize that for him- it's not an entirely religious reason why people should marry. He believes the logic follows that it is necessary for the propagation of a healthy society- for if marriage is not the basis of civilization then what is?

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BandoCommando
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quote:
Originally posted by Shawshank:
Why would religious people including religious ideas and characters in their fiction be a necessarily bad thing.

And if you've never noticed- many if not most of the characters I've read from OSC tend to be fairly logical- and I've read enough OSC to understand his ideas about sex and marriage to realize that for him- it's not an entirely religious reason why people should marry. He believes the logic follows that it is necessary for the propagation of a healthy society- for if marriage is not the basis of civilization then what is?

Absolutely. Even Card's agnostic/atheistic characters honored the institution of marriage in order to comply with and honor society; Valentine and Miro, to name a couple.
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Orincoro
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quote:
Originally posted by Shawshank:
Why would religious people including religious ideas and characters in their fiction be a necessarily bad thing.

And if you've never noticed- many if not most of the characters I've read from OSC tend to be fairly logical- and I've read enough OSC to understand his ideas about sex and marriage to realize that for him- it's not an entirely religious reason why people should marry. He believes the logic follows that it is necessary for the propagation of a healthy society- for if marriage is not the basis of civilization then what is?

Well, be careful. You may be verging on the suggestion that Card writes characters that are true to HIS views of the world only. If that's the case, he finds women to be winey, long-winded, standoffish, and generally unlikeable. Just saying...
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Steve_G
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I find most of Card's female characters generally likable. Sure they are smart, witty, and proud, but some guys like that in a gal.
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mr_porteiro_head
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Would you consider Novinha generally likable?
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DaisyMae
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I would argue that anyone who has read much of Card's works would recognize that he is not trying to inject Mormon propoganda into his writing. So what if you can recognize Mormon influence? He's Mormon.

What about Josif in SongMaster? Bisexual. Never "reformed."

What about Lanik in Treason? Sexually active, not married.

And Carlotta, if we will remember, was Catholic. If Card were trying to put Mormon doctrine into her mouth, maybe he would have made her Mormon?

Those are just the first examples I can think of.

He quite obviously does not conform all of his characters to LDS standards.

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Steve_G
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quote:
Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
Would you consider Novinha generally likable?

Generally, maybe not. However Ender did find her personally likeable.

"I think it is impossible to really understand somebody, what they want, what they believe, and not love them the way they love themselves."
-Speaker for the Dead

This is one of the best statements of the book IMO. Everybody is likeable once you understand what makes them tick. That is what I love about Card's character development. I have grown to like a lot of initially unlikeable people in real life. While they haven't ever become my best friends, I have learned to enjoy their company.

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Snowman
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I've yet to read Shadow Puppets and Shadow of the Giant. I don't feel he overuses the term. Like many others have said, it fits the context of the characters that use it. When writing these kinds of stories it is inevitable to have characters who are religous. At least to me, if the author wants that story to be good.

To me, Ender's Shadow and Speaker for the Dead come very close to the greatness of the original. I was amazed at how he could write a 'parallel' story and still keep it fresh.

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C3PO the Dragon Slayer
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It's nice to know that Zirak fears the Lord. (I say that to every Atheist, or person that thinks God should be censored, but is still a religious guy, I meet who doesn't like a reference to a deity.) It goes to show that religion isn't so hard.

What makes science fiction more than a bunch of wild techy otherworldly ideas and emphasis that there's no sound in space is the concept that even in the midst of our machines doing everything we want them to do (which implies that Microsoft is no longer in the market), we still need God. Star Wars was remarkable because of the Force, which turned a heap of sound effects and computer generated images (and in the prequels, cheesy love dialog) into something many more can identify with. Orson Scott Card is probably the closest to correct about the future in this regard: assuming humans last another three thousand years, Catholics will still be around, along with everyone else.

It is a mistake to say that mentions of "God" almost ruin a book. God still is, and still will be, a part of life, and Bean needs to grow up and live a life close enough to ours that the reader of the novel can understand it. Despite Battle School, supergenius genetics, abnormal size, prodigious thoughts that help save the world--or eliminate one, Bean is someone we can all connect to, and he is, in fact, human. The God Gene wasn't likely part of Anton's key, so it wasn't tampered by Volescu.

One needs to be tolerant of mentions of alternative deities or deities in general when reading; it keeps the reader open to new ideas, and lets the said reader form personal ideas and arguments that help construct a wiser, larger world-view.

Simple discomfort and rejection doesn't help that in any way.

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