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Author Topic: When Orson Scott Card is done campaigning for George Bush 2008 maybe he can read this
Samprimary
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quote:
honestly, do we really NEED to know about a politician's moral lack?
Good question. Ignorance is bliss. We shouldn't pry into the amorality of our leaders, because they're supposed to be our leaders, duh!
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Constipatron
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How many presidents have we had throughout history that HASN'T led a morally bereft life prior and during their presidancy? It's sickening to hear about them on the news and it gets quite old... though I think there ought to be a certain standard required to meet in order to fill an office of any sort. But then, I think we'd simply be leaderless...
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Lyrhawn
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quote:
How many presidents have we had throughout history that HASN'T led a morally bereft life prior and during their presidancy?
Depends on your definition, but off the top of my head I can think of a few.
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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by Constipatron:
How many presidents have we had throughout history that HASN'T led a morally bereft life prior and during their presidancy?

Most of them.
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Clandestineguitarplayer
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You stupid bastard! You were just brutally attacking him because HE had a different onion than YOU! That rant was hipocritic in its own and it completely contradicted everything you were apparently going for... Keep those stupid thoughts to yourself and spare us all please...
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Morbo
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Thanks for contributing your onion, CGP.
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Clandestineguitarplayer
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Always Morbo!
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Threads
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I'm not sure that Morbo is being sincere...
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Clandestineguitarplayer
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Pretty sure he's not... There was no 'dripping with sarcasm' button on my keyboard for that reply so it might have sounded like i was naively accepting praise, but honestly I wasnt. I just cant see why there has to be Magic Rats in this world who think its their job to cut people down because they 'know better' and I will totally admit that my anger quite eagerly showed earlier on... But its difficult to contain as I am sure any other human being would agree with me on that. I am not backtracking and I stand by everything I said...


Except maybe the 'Stupid Bastard' comment...


My bad...


*gets spanked*

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Threads
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Why lower the level of discussion by focusing on his immature comments?
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Synesthesia
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Y'know, him supporting Bush is all well and good, but I disagree with him 100% about Bush.
He's been TERRIBLE for this country.
Spending almost trillions on Iraq, being against unemployment extensions for people who need them, ignoring the current economic crisis.
i think a depression could be prevented if it is faced head on and directly. No ignoring it and thinking it will go away like the current administration is doing.
I am so mad about this. It's getting worse every day, and nothing direct is being done about it.


How could OSC possibly have thought the economy is GOOD?! If you can't even get a decent temp job, it's a sign of something being wrong.

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C3PO the Dragon Slayer
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quote:
Originally posted by Synesthesia:
ignoring the current economic crisis.

There you're just wrong. Bush hasn't been ignoring the "crisis" at all. He's been throwing quite a lot of money at it. And in doing so making it worse.
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Clandestineguitarplayer
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Threads... You are wiser than I... Sarcasm aside... I will honestly try to learn. [Smile]
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Reshpeckobiggle
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New episode of Lost this Thursday....
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Scott R
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quote:
If you can't even get a decent temp job, it's a sign of something being wrong.
It may be. But it might not have anything to do with the economy.
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Synesthesia
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quote:
Originally posted by Scott R:
quote:
If you can't even get a decent temp job, it's a sign of something being wrong.
It may be. But it might not have anything to do with the economy.
It has everything to do with the economy.
I honestly don't think these folks are doing what is best for the country, but what THEY think is best, even when it's hurting millions of people out there.
For example-
Outsourcing
underemployment, going from making a decent some of money to 8 dollars an hour, no one can live off of that these days
increasing gas prices while still allowing gas companies to have tax breaks
and so many other things that are just making things worse.

also my head is killing me right now.

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Scott R
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Syn, not to be cruel, but there are reasons, other than the economy, for why people can't get jobs.
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Reshpeckobiggle
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"I can't get a job; it's Bush's fault. I have night terrors and a broken home because I was in Iraq; it's Bush's fault."

Okay, so as commander-in-chief, he's taken on the responsibilities of making decisions about going to war and the economy, but it is weak to blame your personal woes on someone so far removed from you, no matter how directly you are affected by his decisions. If your wife cheats on you and drains your savings while you are at war, maybe the blame should start with the wife. If you're having night terrors because of the war, maybe you shouldn't re-up instead of letting yourself get re-deployed again and again. And if you can't get a job, well, telling the landlady it's Bush's fault isn't gonna get the rent paid. You're better off trying to figure out why someone else got it instead of you.

Besides, the Army's hiring!

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Synesthesia
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quote:
Originally posted by Scott R:
Syn, not to be cruel, but there are reasons, other than the economy, for why people can't get jobs.

These days it is the economy.
If it were a handful of people struggling to get jobs, there would be one thing.
But right now we are in a recession whether they want to admit it or not.
There's been a recession probably since October.
It's never been this bad before.
Every single agency I call, and right now I'm registed with at least 14 agencies, says that jobs are scarce.
It's not just me and a handful of unemployed people, the news is saying the same thing to.
I am not lazy. I've trecked miles in all sorts of weather trying to get a job, cold freezing rain, snow, 18 degree weather. The most I've gotten was a 3 day gig that was supposed to be 6 weeks but they over hired and a 7 day mostly working at home job last month that I finally got paid for last week.
The gas prices are up, the food prices have increased. Being unemployed these days is different then it was last time in 2002.
There are hundreds of resumes being sent out for one job.
There is a severe problem. It's been like this since this whole housing market collapse. What I think is there's a crisis brewing and if it's not taken care of it will get worse.
This current administration is not helping the matter. You do not spend billions of dollars on a war and have tax cuts, nor do you allow the sort of business practices that led to the housing collapse to continue without some sort of regulation (though, people's greed and desparation plays a part in things.)
There's a severe problem out there when it's not just me, because I have gotten better at applying for jobs. I have gotten some responses, but it's millions of educated, intelligent Americans who can't get a simple decent job.
It's not just Bush either. Clinton didn't help with his whole NAFTA treaty and job outsourcing which has been going on for decades.
It's really bleeding this country to death and if it's not handled directly, I'm really afraid for this country.

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scholarette
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"instead of letting yourself get re-deployed again and again"

Resh- that isn't really fair. People who sign up for a year find themselves one for several years. My friend's tou of duty was extended by 6 months and there is nothing he can do about it.

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Scott R
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quote:
These days it is the economy.
Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. The economy is a factor. It may even be a factor OFTEN. But it's not nearly as cut-and-dried as you seem to think.

quote:

It's never been this bad before.

It has been worse.
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Synesthesia
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It will probably get worse soon.
The dollar is weaker. We are already IN a recession.
http://money.aol.com/news/articles/_a/economists-say-odds-of-recession-rising/20080421064409990001
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24228456/
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24180492/
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24162140/
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24127314/

We are sooooooo screwed. It really WILL get worse if something isn't done about it!

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DarkKnight
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quote:
We are sooooooo screwed. It really WILL get worse if something isn't done about it!
Such as?
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Synesthesia
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quote:
Originally posted by DarkKnight:
quote:
We are sooooooo screwed. It really WILL get worse if something isn't done about it!
Such as?
A depression if we're not already in one!
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Ish
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quote:
Originally posted by Synesthesia:
It will probably get worse soon.
The dollar is weaker. We are already IN a recession.
http://money.aol.com/news/articles/_a/economists-say-odds-of-recession-rising/20080421064409990001
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24228456/
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24180492/
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24162140/
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24127314/

We are sooooooo screwed. It really WILL get worse if something isn't done about it!

You set yourself up for correction. Whether or not I agree with you is set aside to explain that your first two examples of us being IN a reccession say:

quote:
The odds the country will fall into its first recession since 2001 are rising sharply.
Not "WE ARE IN A RECESSION! OMG!! WE ARE DOOMED!" Now if it said THAT. You might have a statement to make. Still, lets look at your other sources:

quote:
Jobless claims up more than expected
Weekly data portend more pressure from weak economy

Up more than expected eh? Like gas prices? Like everything... well, that does not = reccession, it = major inflation, which is an element, but not the maker of a reccession.

quote:
Fed: Economy worsened in early spring
Shoppers hit by housing, credit debacles, weaker job climate

So it's worse. Well, I guess that means that any little good thing that happens, will tremendously help. Put a positive spin on negative news and see if we don't get out of this "reccession" a little bit quicker with a spoon full of faith.

quote:
U.S. seeing worst food inflation in 17 years
Food vendors are forced to explain higher prices; poor squeezed

Worst in 17 years... wow... that is bad. But wait a minute... 17 years ago would have been...1991... right? Did the world end in 1991? Did our entire psyche collapse and the flow of technology cease to the point where we are now dying and starving at a rate to which we will never recover?

The answer, simply, is no.

Inovation and renovation of our society moves us out of dips and slip ups in our economical and societal judgements. The only thing holding the dollar at bay from strengthening is a weak perception, not weak action.

People are spending at such an alarming rate that credit is the worst it's been, but people are not quiting, so spending in the economy isn't the problem.

China is selling and we are buying, maintaining positive trade routes and enforcing our world market stance which grants us millions of dollars in subsidies from the UN each year. We are not poor because we import, and we are deffinetely exporting refined goods at a much more efficient level then ever before.

And this "Jobless Claims" bussiness, it only shows one side of the statistic. While it is true there are not many Union, well paying and comfy jobs available to us as was in yester-year, how is it possible that the 50,000 immigrants who find themselves here illegally each year manage to find work and money? Seems to me the numbers just don't fit. If the job doesn't pay the bills, that doesn't mean you shouldn't take the job, it just means you may need to find another one too, or take the help and the job. The economist here tell you a story that suggest there ARE no jobs, when, like 17 years ago, and like in 2001, there are plenty, they just aren't jobs many would like to do.

You want a solution to your up-and-coming reccession? One Word:

Propaganda.

They are already using it on you now so why not turn it back. Positive re-enforcement isn't a crime and it isn't a lie, it is hope and we need lot of that right now. We need gutsy investors putting their millions back into the stock market and powerful entrepenures to throw their ideas for great business into the pot to stew. We need a revolution of thought and action.

We don't need statistics telling us whats wrong, we need people DOING something to change it.

/end rant

~Ish

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Synesthesia
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True, but I think we've been in a recession longer than the media has started talking about it.
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Morbo
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quote:
Originally posted by Ish:
quote:
The odds the country will fall into its first recession since 2001 are rising sharply.
Not "WE ARE IN A RECESSION! OMG!! WE ARE DOOMED!" Now if it said THAT. You might have a statement to make. Still, lets look at your other sources:
The most recent WSJ poll of economists has a majority of them believing we are in a recession. Happy-talk will not make that go away.

quote:
The weakening U.S. economy has further to fall, according to the majority of economists in the latest Wall Street Journal forecasting survey.

By a 3-to-1 ratio, respondents said the economy is in a recession, and almost three-quarters said the economy hasn't yet hit bottom. "It's hard to say," said Lou Crandall of Wrightson ICAP, because "it doesn't feel like anything we've experienced in decades."

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120776362649702195.html?mod=hps_us_whats_news

edit: Even McCain thinks we're in a recession.

[ April 21, 2008, 04:34 PM: Message edited by: Morbo ]

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Ish
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I will yet again state that just because they believe we are in a recession, does not make it so. You would need to show me a deffintion of a recession, followed by the parameters that our current state meets in order to prove that point clearly.

You state also that "happy-talk" will not make that go away. Are you suggesting that the media has no power to change our world? Are you trying to get me to believe that yellow journalism, war propaganda and the "above-the-influence" type commercials we see every day do not have an effect on us? I don't think you will get me to believe that.

Words sell, and what they sell is thought, and thought leads to action, but until we get to that action, it's a steep hill from where we are at. Right now, morale in the US SEEMS down because lead experts say it is. IF and only IF lead experts predicted a POSITIVE turn, more faith would be put into US economies. More faith would then be put in the dollar and therefore on our market, taking us out of a recession.

However, I will conceed without proof, no expert will be listened to, so we must find the small, but profitable growths we have in the United States and make them headlines. Rather then let the destruction of the economy barrage our frontpage.

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Synesthesia
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Like i said before, the media hasn't even started talking about what's going on until recently and they say we're PROBABLY in a recession.
Dude, we already ARE in one! Even Greenspan admits it. THe dollar has probably be weakening for ages, and not facing it isn't going to help.
Look how slow the job market has been? I'm not expert in the economy, but it's pretty bad right now.

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Morbo
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Ish, you seem to be granting words a magical power they do not possess.
quote:
However, I will conceed without proof, no expert will be listened to. . .
Or are you? Now I don't know what to think!? Won't some leading expert spell it out for me? [Razz]
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Morbo
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quote:
Originally posted by Reshpeckobiggle:
"I can't get a job; it's Bush's fault. I have night terrors and a broken home because I was in Iraq; it's Bush's fault."

Okay, so as commander-in-chief, he's taken on the responsibilities of making decisions about going to war and the economy, but it is weak to blame your personal woes on someone so far removed from you, no matter how directly you are affected by his decisions. If your wife cheats on you and drains your savings while you are at war, maybe the blame should start with the wife. If you're having night terrors because of the war, maybe you shouldn't re-up instead of letting yourself get re-deployed again and again.

Resh, it's like you live in a bubble and have never heard of stop-loss, despite showing such enthusiasm for all things military. Show a little compassion.
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Reshpeckobiggle
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Well, I WAS in the army, and I did a year in Iraq, I was in combat, and I had nightmares. They (the retention officers and NCOs) tried to tell me I had no choice but to re-enlist or be reassigned to a unit with stop-loss already activated. I told them kiss my ass. Now I'm in college. I have buddies who complained every day about how much they hated being in Iraq and how they hated being in the Army, and they re-enlisted. I give them sh*t for it all the time, but they know I respect their decision. But they also know they garner no sympathy from me for how miserable they are. We're soldiers, we don't need anyones compassion. Stop condescending to us. We still vote overwhelmingly Republican.

[edit] Stop-loss is not indefinite. No one who was in the army before the war is still there except by choice.

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Synesthesia
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Not all hopefully.
Do you see what a right pig's ears these guys are making of the economy?
And I don't trust them when it comes to military issues or just about anything else.
heck, I don't trust politicians period.
They will totally use anything to get people to vote for them, including implying that folks who don't vote for them do not love America, apple pie or American puppies.

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Lyrhawn
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quote:
We're soldiers, we don't need anyones compassion. Stop condescending to us. We still vote overwhelmingly Republican.
And therein lies a national lose/lose situation for Democrats. Show compassion and understanding for soldiers and they apparently call it condescension and vote Republican. Fail to show it and Republicans say Democrats don't care about the armed forces and they get beat up in the national media.

And we wonder why this country is so screwed up.

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Scott R
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I'm not sure that taking Resh's word for it is advisable, Lyrhawn.
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Reshpeckobiggle
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Me either.

But do keep telling people you're for the troops but against the war. That seems to be working very well for you.

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Javert
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quote:
Originally posted by Reshpeckobiggle:
Me either.

But do keep telling people you're for the troops but against the war. That seems to be working very well for you.

As opposed to lying to get votes?

Do keep doing that. That seems to be working well for you.

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Threads
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quote:
Originally posted by Reshpeckobiggle:
Me either.

But do keep telling people you're for the troops but against the war. That seems to be working very well for you.

So the only way to support the troops is to send them to war?
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Reshpeckobiggle
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That's jumping to conclusions, isn't?
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Javert
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Just trying to share with you Resh that the reason people say "I support the troops but not the war" is because it's the truth.

Sometimes the truth hurts. But that doesn't change it.

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Morbo
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At this point, the troops are against the war. And I support them in that.
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Reshpeckobiggle
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quote:
Originally posted by Javert:
Just trying to share with you Resh that the reason people say "I support the troops but not the war" is because it's the truth.

Sometimes the truth hurts. But that doesn't change it.

That was supposed to hurt? I just found it a bit of a stretch. I know plenty of people think they can support the troops, in a specific, "we just want you safe and sound right here in America" sort of way. My point is that the troops, in a general sort of way, think that's stupid. We don't like being in Iraq, but we hate having our work sabotaged by our "supporters" back home. We'd rather you were all... somehow made to shut up... and not allowed to speak such comforts to the bastards who keep trying to kill us over there.

I read about that poll, Morbo, and found some of its conclusions dubious. I've participated in similar surveys and the wording of the questions allow the surveyor to allow whatever conclusion they desire be made. Look at what the headline says, and look at what the actual poll says. The troops "signal desire to come home." But the poll says "only 23 percent... felt that the US should 'stay as long as needed.'" Plus it was conducted by Zogby and funded by a left-wing organization. So... I'm gonna call this one a "fail."

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Synesthesia
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There is something called free-speech, you know.
Something soldiers state they are defending?
If you don't have people questioning something, how can you learn the whole picture?
Plus, not all people from a group think exactly alike.

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Reshpeckobiggle
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No of course not. I'm speaking generally here.

As for free speech, I'm all for it. Except when your free speech undermines the military's mission in Iraq and can be directly traced toward increased danger to the soldiers. Maybe you're exercising your freedom to speak. But you are also being seditious, and the line must be drawn somewhere. Kinda like saying pornography is free speech. You're just dressing up your filth and dishonor as some sort of virtue, like courage for standing up for what's right. It's amazing how we could have let our perception of right and wrong become so corrupted from what is actually right and wrong.

By you, I mean you people, not you specifically, Syn. Though if I remember correctly, I think you are on of those people.

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Temposs
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Resh, sedition is a serious charge, and from what I'm reading here, there is no sedition going on here under current US law. If you refer moreso to a moral definition of sedition, well, this type of speech must be protected often, despite its potential harmfulness and moral repugnance. It is necessary in public life in a way that pornography is not, and that's where your analogy breaks down.

Here's why:
I believe that everyone here and most everyone falling under "those people" in your definition intends by their speech expression primarily to affect the lawful civilian political process in order to effect change in the policy of our federal government by communicating constituency sentiment to representatives and to affect our representation by affecting the outcome of elections. As long as this is the case, the speech must be protected under the first ammendment, at any cost.

Even if it is reasonably perceived by some to hurt the US military cause abroad, if the speech can be construed as being primarily directed towards affecting the domestic political process, it should not be censored nor should the speaker be prosecuted.

I believe this serves our country better than accusing people of sedition.

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Reshpeckobiggle
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Well put, but what if the speech -if its primary or even sole purpose is to affect change in domestic policy- causes such a degree of harm to the current policy that what should be certain victory turns to certain defeat? And what if defeat is viewed as the most effective or perhaps the only way to achieve the policy changes the speaker desires? Should this speech still be protected?
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Dagonee
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quote:
Well put, but what if the speech -if its primary or even sole purpose is to affect change in domestic policy- causes such a degree of harm to the current policy that what should be certain victory turns to certain defeat? And what if defeat is viewed as the most effective or perhaps the only way to achieve the policy changes the speaker desires? Should this speech still be protected?
Yes. That doesn't mean I think the speech should actually be expressed. But it should certainly be protected.
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Lyrhawn
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You're a curious bunch Resh.

Yeah, I support the troops but not the war, in that I think they should be given every protection we can afford, and I support giving them that, but it's my preference that they be brought home.

If you want to see the difference between supporting and not supporting the troops whilst not supporting the war, look at the difference between this war and Vietnam.

No, you don't want to go back to that, you just want everyone who disagrees with you to shut up, it's the new American way!

Sorry but, soldiers have a duty to go where they are sent. Citizens have a duty to speak out when we think they are being sent to the wrong place. Silence got us into this mess. Silence won't get us out.

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Sterling
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quote:
Originally posted by sylvrdragon:
Actually, he mentioned that his Brother-in-law's wife was in Germany. By being sent to Iraq, he was separated from her when he wasn't supposed to have been.

Thanks, sylvrdragon. I vaguely noticed those comments, but largely felt that I just didn't have the energy to correct someone who couldn't be bothered to read the earlier posts in the first place.

And I'd respond to Resh, but, apparently, he's departed Hatrack. Briefly, I find it hard to find fault with someone who re-applies in order to have some control over his deployment when threatened with stop-lossing; they might be bluffing, but he had no way to know that, and there have certainly been enough cases of it occurring for one to not think it a bluff. Given the incredibly small number of mental health counselors in Baghdad, I suspect it wasn't an empty threat. Frankly, he was lied to.

If anyone's interested, he's back in Germany, and apparently in a transition process that's going to lead to an honorable discharge for PTSD. Almost don't want to mention it for fear of jinxing him, knock wood.

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Samprimary
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I didn't even catch Resh in here accusing people of sedition like a good lil' armchair generalissimo.
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