posted
kacard's thread reminded me of this - and I realized I don't believe it's ever been brought up. I'd have posted this there, though it's on a slightly different thread of continuity than the issue that was brought up there. As it is, being more than a minor contradiction, I was surprised that after looking through search for about 30 minutes I couldn't find any other threads on this. I apologize if I missed it, I really did look!
The contradiction is this: Why is Demosthenes' identity unknown in Speaker through COTM, when Peter publicly revealed himself as Demosthenes in Shadow of the Hegemon?
Perhaps it was even done intentionally but regrettably, because Peter had to reveal himself as Demosthenes for him to plausibly need to reveal himself as Locke, too.
But a potential answer from canon is of course more satisfying, to everyone, I'm sure - especially in this case, where the issue is a key plot point in both series', as opposed to the minor errors like Bonzo vs. Rose's misuse, and Ender's fee, and such.
Unfortunately, I don't see how this can easily be resolved from what's already written, but perhaps it's possible - everyone here did a good job with that on the Valentine vs. Peter exile issue.
posted
Peter came out as Desmosthenes, he didn't say that his sister-in-starflight was acting in proxy to his ideas.
Therefore once Peter died (and being the original Hegemon, it was known when he died) and Desmosthenes didn't publish for quite a while, people 1. probably forgot that there a was commentator named Desmosthenes (I doubt that was basic history) 2. Peter was the original Desmosthenes-named commentator and 3. Peter Wiggin is dead, who is the new person writing
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posted
I can think of a couple responses to this. First being, I'm not sure just how wide spread Peter's coming out really was. Doesn't seem like a topic that many people outside of the political ring would actually care about. As such, I could see a vast majority of the population not caring, and so, not knowing about it.
Secondly: don't forget that Val started releasing Histories under the name Demosthenes as soon as she landed on the first Colony. By this time, Peter was already very old (late 70s? I don't remember). I would wager to guess that most people on Earth had already forgotten about that name by then. After all, it was adamantly shown in the Speaker series how hesitant people were to factor in relativistic effects into their perception of history.
I would guess that Val's first History by Demosthenes was when people who cared (which would be few at this point) started thinking of it as a catch-all name. As time went on, and Demosthenes started edging toward center stage again, more people starting taking note. By this time, however, it was 3000 years in the future, and as I mentioned, people didn't tend to take travel time into account.
By the same note, people from Speaker onward probably wouldn't even REMEMBER the name Peter or maybe even the Hive Queen if it hadn't been for Ender's Best Seller. I mean, look at most historical figures today; people generally learn about them once in school and then forget all about them until someone makes a movie about em.
I don't know if OSC was thinking of any of this when he wrote it, but I think it gives more than enough spin to keep the continuity of the series afloat.
**Ender's Shadow Spoilers**
PS. Another little error that I don't think anyone's mentioned is after the Ender/Bonzo fight when Bean gets put in command of Rabbit. He talks to the one toon leader about other commanders being graduated to make room for Dragon Toon Leaders and seconds when Graff disbanded them: "I'll bet the total that was graduated was nine". It would make sense if they only needed to account for 4 toon leaders, the seconds, and the one Bean himself was replacing, but... Ender had 5 toons, so that's 10, plus Bean, plus Bonzo (his paper said "Graduated), plus Ender. So actually, the total number graduated was 13. I thought Bean was supposed to be good at math!!! Posts: 636 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
I think sylvrdragon's second issue touches at the heart of it. If you remember later in the Ender/Val story (perhaps 'First Meetings'), it is said that over the years people tried to figure out who 'Demosthenes' was. If I remember there were several others using the name to publish.
So, first, there are lots of 'Demosthenes' out there. Ender and Val are still very young when they reach the first colony, but earth time has moved much faster, and after a short while on the 'first colony', Peter is near death from old age.
So, we have this gap in Demosthenes publishing histories. The original Demosthense (from a publishing perspective) was Val acting on Peter's behalf, and Peter at least made in known that Demosthenes was writing for him, though he may or may not have revealed Val. Now something like 70 years goes by and we start seeing histories written by someone calling themselves 'Demosthenes'. Certainly that person is not Peter.
It seems Val closely guards her true identity and has a scheme set up where she can get paid with out her true identity being revealed. I think one of the reasons for this is her feeling that if people can find her, then they can reasonably find and identify Ender, and that is what Ender is trying to avoid. He wants to live his life as 'Andrew' not 'Ender the Xenocide'.
So, anonymity is important. Soon the vast expanse of time sufficiently separates him from his old self, but, as we see in "First Meetings - 'Investment Counselor'", a determined person can still trace who Ender is and where he came from. Fortunately, after that point, Jane erases all traces of Enders' travels from public records.
So, the short version is that when Val leaves earth, the political-Demosthenes stops publishing. Seventy years later, historical-Demosthenes starts publishing. Then periodically across vast expanses of time, new Demosthenes publications appear. The only reason that old-Demosthenes and new-Demosthenes history publications are thought to be from the same person, despite the impossible span of time, is that the writing style and thoroughness are the same. Keep in mind that Val-Demosthenes publications span thousands of years.
Though there is one point I quibble with, 'The Hive Queen' and 'The Hegemon' were published separately, but later, after they became popular, they were published together in one volume and became the core 'canon' of the new uber-religion referred to as 'Speaker for the Dead'.
The influence of this volume is felt across the Hundred Worlds many many many many centuries later. So, we can to some extent debate whether Peter's actually earth history was remembered, but in concept, he was very much remember by the book 'The Hedgemon' which seems to be part of a text that greatly influenced the Hundred Worlds.
As to the Bean counting error, I think that can be attributed more to perspective than to an actual error. While you may be technically right, we don't know what Bean's perspective is at that point. Perhaps he is referring only to those who matter to him, and may or may not be counting himself, and is certainly not counting Bonzo.
The thing I like to remind people when analyzing books is the neither in fiction nor in life do people speak in absolute truths. Context colors everything; sometime we generalize, sometime we summarize, sometime were speak in superficial context knowing the person we are speaking to understands the sub-context, sometimes were speak in what is gibberish to those outside the context. So, while you certainly have a valid point, I think we are mistaken if we take it as 'absolute truth'.
The contradiction is this: Why is Demosthenes' identity unknown in Speaker through COTM, when Peter publicly revealed himself as Demosthenes in Shadow of the Hegemon?
People know that Peter Wiggin was behind Demosthenes, but 3000 years later after Peter is long dead, how would anyone know who's using the name now? I don't see a contradiction.
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quote:Originally posted by BlueWizard: If I remember there were several others using the name to publish.
I think I remember a quote somewhere that anyone besides Valentine who attempted to publish under Demosthenes had their work rejected. First Meetings, maybe? So it would only have been the Wiggins who had used the name (but in many different ways).
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posted
I thought that Peter never revealed being Demosthenes...I could be wrong. I remember he publicly came out as Locke, but I could've swore he left Demosthenes out of it cause it would look bad on him.
Either way, Ender could've resolved the issue for the world with "The Hegemon". Then when there search was over for the original Demosthenes, on the first colony, the name could've slowly grown to become the catch all historian.
Good question either way.
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No, I was just reading that last night. Apparently there were other academics that were taking the credit for Val's writing, or more likely the credit was being thrust on them. Val did care and even thought it was funny. As long as the money keep reaching her, she did care what anyone thought or claimed.
At that time we are only talking about a span of about 400 or 500 years. In that time certainly someone must have used Demosthenes as a screen name. If you don't think so, just try and register your favorite screen name at Yahoo.
Instead of BlueWizard, I used to be BoyBlue on Yahoo. That's somewhat obscure, a more likely and common screen name would have been BlueBoy. Yet when I lost the screen name and tried to re-register under every variation of the name I could think of, they were all taken. My point is that it is ridiculous to think that there is one and only one 'Demosthenes' screen name.
Though THE Demosthenes would be clearly recognized from the quality and style of her writing.
As to Peter or 'The Hegemon' revealing that Demosthenes was Peter's sister Val, I'm not sure that that matters. Keep in mind, that nearly 70 years had passed in earth time before 'The Hegemon' came out. At that time, any details would have been just curious historical facts. Even understanding time dilation, I don't think many earth side people would have thought much about it.
Now, in 'First Meetings - Investment Councilor' we are 500 years in the future. Ender's sister Valentine, now subjective age 25, is an obscure historical fact, and would not logically be associated with THE Demosthenes or the Valentine.
quote:Originally posted by BlueWizard: CRash, No, I was just reading that last night. Apparently there were other academics that were taking the credit for Val's writing, or more likely the credit was being thrust on them. Val did care and even thought it was funny. As long as the money keep reaching her, she did care what anyone thought or claimed.
... My point is that it is ridiculous to think that there is one and only one 'Demosthenes' screen name.
I remember the quote you are thinking of, from First Meetings. You're right that the credit was forced on them, but not because they wrote as Demosthenes:
quote:First Meetings, page 172 Some reporters...had attempted to identify the "real Demosthenes" by figuring out from her long spates of slow responses or no responses at all when she was voyaging, and then working from passenger lists...So several men of varying degrees of scholarliness were accused of being Demosthenes.
The men are indeed receiving credit, but not because they have actually written under the name Demosthenes, just because they fit with Valentine's schedule. No one can actually use the name, as evidenced by these two quotes:
quote:First Meetings, page 172 All this amused Valentine to no end. As long as the royalty checks came to the right place and nobody tried to slip a faked-up book under her pseudonym, she couldn't care less who claimed the credit personally.
quote:Speaker for the Dead, page 74 Hundreds of "Demosthenes" essays every year were attempted; the computer automatically rejected any that were not written by the real Demosthenes; and still the belief firmly persisted that a person such as Valentine could not possibly exist.
On your second point about there being multiple screennames with computers, remember that Jane is quite capable of monitoring any fake Demosthenes that pop up. It's possible that she helped (without Valentine's knowledge) in eradicating false writers...the "computer automatically" rejecting these could be Jane's doing. She did help Valentine out quite a lot in Xenocide. Of course that's just a theory, though, and not confirmed anywhere in the books.
I think that it's reasonable that Peter could prevent fakes while he was alive, and Valentine would want to make sure of that once she started using the name extensively. Perhaps in the few years between the first couple of voyages a false Demosthenes could have written, but by First Meetings the computer prevented it.
I really like discussing these Enderverse details with you, Steve.
As to Peter or 'The Hegemon' revealing that Demosthenes was Peter's sister Val, I'm not sure that that matters. Keep in mind, that nearly 70 years had passed in earth time before 'The Hegemon' came out. At that time, any details would have been just curious historical facts. Even understanding time dilation, I don't think many earth side people would have thought much about it.
Time obscures all things.
steve/bluewizard
Just so you know, I was more commenting on the fact that I don't think Peter ever revealed himself as Demosthenes than anything else. That far in the future is like you said an obscurity, but I still think that what I said was a fact. It's like I said though, I could be wrong. I'd have to re read about 3 to 4 books to be sure...lol. I definitely agree on your point about "Investment Counselor".....I remember that many historians published under the name Demosthenes to try to earn respect because of the reverence placed on the name throughout history. It says though, if I remember right, that every now and again there would be something that came out published under the name Demosthenes that was distinguishable by the attention to detail (Valentine's Works)...and that was recognized by humanity. Posts: 115 | Registered: Apr 2008
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posted
I'm pretty sure he had to reveal himself as demosthenes, even if it didn't explicitly mention him in the book. I can't find Shadow of the Hegemon right now, but these are my reasons from what I remember in the book.
A. If he doesn't do it, Achilles will. B. He does says in his confession that he and his sister tried to stop the league war. At the very least, he said that his sister was demosthenes - but that's ultimately irrelevant, because he continues to use it after she leaves for Rov. So either way, people will figure out he's using it because she can't be while in she's starflight, or he told them he/they was/were Demosthenes in the first place. C. I'm pretty sure in Shadow Puppets that he mentions that he has to keep himself from being too inflammatory when writing with Demosthenes, as his identity is known now. That's pretty much outright saying people know he's Demosthenes.
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posted
I believe that others knew about this because in Shadow Puppets when Peter was on the space station he wrote essays using both Locke and Demosthenes and Graff commented how he couldn't leave because the essays were gaining support for his cause against China.
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posted
Well, I'm pretty sure Graff and the Fleet had it figured out long before that. I vaguely remember Graff coming to Peter and Val's school and talking to one or both, and revealing that he knew who they were and what they were up to. Yet, he didn't stop them.
Also, just because Peter revealed that he both wrote Locke and 'influenced' Demosthenes, doesn't mean he literally revealed Valentine as Demosthenes.
My memory is a little foggy on that detail, can we confirm anywhere that Peter literally outed Val as Demosthenes?
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posted
No...it's never stated that he did...All we got is the parents asking Peter if he was going to reveal that Val was Demosthenes when he told them he was Locke in Shadow of the Hegemon.
Also how would Ender being able to write the book the Hegemon as a true Speaking if you will without telling of one of the more important aspects of early Peter's political life? I don't think he'd gloss over that aspect. I'm thinking Val as Demosthenes was revealed in The Hegemon.
[ May 14, 2008, 08:46 PM: Message edited by: Wowbagger the Infinitely Prolonged ]
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quote:Originally posted by Wowbagger the Infinitely Prolonged: Also how would Ender being able to write the book the Hegemon as a true Speaking if you will without telling of one of the more important aspects of early Peter's political life? I don't think he'd gloss over that aspect. I'm thinking Val as Demosthenes was revealed in The Hegemon.
The Hive Queen and the Hegemon were widely read during the time that Xenocide took place, yet it took a lot of digging to uncover the fact that Val was Demosthenes. If it was in the Hegemon, the connection would have been made much, much quicker.
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posted
Well that's sort of my point. If the Hegemon is supposed to be the true telling of Peter's life wouldn't leaving that out be sort of wrong. It's just one of the many things I'm sure OSC will flesh out for us fans...
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quote:Originally posted by Wowbagger the Infinitely Prolonged: Also how would Ender being able to write the book the Hegemon as a true Speaking if you will without telling of one of the more important aspects of early Peter's political life? I don't think he'd gloss over that aspect. I'm thinking Val as Demosthenes was revealed in The Hegemon.
The Hive Queen and the Hegemon were widely read during the time that Xenocide took place, yet it took a lot of digging to uncover the fact that Val was Demosthenes. If it was in the Hegemon, the connection would have been made much, much quicker.
When did it take a lot of digging? 3000 years later when no sane person had any reason to think that Valentine Wiggin was still alive?
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posted
Even today limited 3D free-space holograms are possible. I've even seen them used on one of those Forensic TV dramas. So, it's not that infeasible. Logically in 3,000 years (though likely much less) the 3D-holographic computer screen will be very common.
...
- - - - - - - - - -
Sorry, I just realized this post was meant for another thread, so I've moved it over there.
One of the hazards of having too many windows open.
posted
Also it should be noted when Val was writing as Demosthenes on Earth she was a rabble rousing anti-Russian writer. Her real life views were the opposite of what she wrote. Reading that Demosthenes and reading the works of the new one who is a Historian chronicling the history of the human race I would just assume they were two different people given the time difference between works and the different views in said works.
Sort of like how people will assume the Life of Human is a work of a different Speaker of the Dead.
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posted
Peter came out as Locke and Demosthenes in Ender's Game(I just finished reading it tonight). I can sort of quote it even.
Basically, the idea was that the Locke Proposal(keeping the IF in space but without the Warsaw Pact in it) was backed officially by Demosthenes, bringing Demosthenes' power over the mob and Locke's power over the intelligista together in favor of the same goal.
Although this doesn't really mean he came out as Demosthenes too, everyone knew that Ender the Xenocide was a third, and that his older brother was Locke. It wouldn't be much of a stretch to assume that Valentine was just as smart as the both of them, and could have possibly been Demosthenes, but that might just be the omniscience of being outside the fourth wall talking.
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Although this doesn't really mean he came out as Demosthenes too, everyone knew that Ender the Xenocide was a third, and that his older brother was Locke. It wouldn't be much of a stretch to assume that Valentine was just as smart as the both of them, and could have possibly been Demosthenes, but that might just be the omniscience of being outside the fourth wall talking.
I think it is possible for both Peter and Ender to reveal what happened relative to Locke and Demosthenes without outing Valentine.
Peter may have merely said, that he influenced both sides of the argument by having Demosthenes write for him. But without specifically saying it was Valentine who did the writing.
Or, he may have said, he had his sister write the opposing views just to make sure both side got aired properly. But may not have revealed that Valentine was writing under the name Demosthenes.
Both are fair and valid confessions. Also, keep in mind that the I.F. had reasons to not allow too much to be revealed. There may have come a time when they needed Locke and/or Demosthenes to write for them again.
So, it is possible that Peter confessed the true but at the same time protected his sister.
In the second case above, where Peter reveals 'his sister' without naming her or identifying her as Demosthenes, people might have made the connection between 'his sister' and Demosthenes since she was the other most potent voice of the time. But, since the names aren't documented, they would easily get lost in the obscurity of time.
My point is that I think it was possible for Peter and Ender to be truthful without compromising the identity of Valentine/Demosthenes.
posted
I'm reading Xenocide right now. When Quing-Jao finally discovers that Valentine is Demosthenes, there is a conversation between her and (I think) Han Fei-Tzu that mentions that Valentine was originally known as Demosthenes, but as the writings continued through the centuries, the assumption was that new people were writing.
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