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Author Topic: enchantment
lynda
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I just finished Enchantment it was great!!! OSC is a master storyteller. His characters are deep and intriguing and story lines are so well developed. Good job OSC God gave you an awesome ability.(Although I wonder what happens to the witch)
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Verloren
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Enchantment is my favorite OSC novel.
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Scott R
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quote:
I wonder what happens to the witch
She gets trapped in customs. Kind of hard to sneak a wingless 747 through...
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C3PO the Dragon Slayer
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[ROFL]

I just read Enchantment too. What a marvelous book! Best I've read in the fantasy genre besides maybe Harry Potter.

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lynda
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yeah i wonder if there will be any cavity searches... i guess it depends on the airport
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wordwrangler
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I just read enchantment. Although I really enjoyed it, I am somewhat disturbed by the graphic nature of many scenes. I want to believe that they were necessary but shudder to think that my 12 year old read the book first. Does anyone else worry about the graphic nature or am I just being overprotective?
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GinaG
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I enjoyed Enchantment quite a bit, and passed it on to a friend who grew up reading Russian fairy tales and she loved it. It's accessible to those who don't like science fiction.

There are some nitpicks about Orthodox faith as presented- a marriage can't be annulled in Orthodoxy, for instance, and the eucharistic liturgy isn't referred to as a "mass." But since few authors ever write about Orthodox characters sympathetically at all, and we got not only Enchantment but Reuben Malich in Empire, I won't complain. [Smile]

I was interested to note the similarities to Hart's Hope. Baba Yaga and Asineth have a lot of similarities, and there is also the idea of women's magic and men's magic and the like.

[ November 29, 2008, 10:42 PM: Message edited by: GinaG ]

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DDDaysh
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I know what you mean about Yaga and Ansineth. I was struck by that as well.

As for the graphic nature of the novel, I don't really know specifically what you mean. I don't remember anything terribly graphic in a sexual way. As for the violence - well, have you SEEN cartoons lately?

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mr_porteiro_head
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quote:
Originally posted by wordwrangler:
I just read enchantment. Although I really enjoyed it, I am somewhat disturbed by the graphic nature of many scenes. I want to believe that they were necessary but shudder to think that my 12 year old read the book first. Does anyone else worry about the graphic nature or am I just being overprotective?

Maybe it's just not a good book for 12-year-olds.

I read a lot of books that I wouldn't want my young children reading yet. I'm OK with that.

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PSI Teleport
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I can't imagine letting any of my kids reading any of Card's novels; they weren't written for children. I read "Ender's Game" at thirteen or fourteen, and that's probably when I'll let my kids read it. They won't get "Enchantment" for a couple more years.
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DDDaysh
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Ah, but so many of them are classified as Young Adult! I really don't think they're that bad, but I was a bit wary of letting my high school students read them. My own child - that's one thing! Someone elses children - well... I dunno.

Still, like I mentioned - have you watched TV recently?

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Traceria
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The copy I picked up came straight out of the adult, science fiction section, not the YA one. It was placed there for good reason.

Oh, and I adored the book, too. [Wink]

[ December 11, 2008, 03:23 PM: Message edited by: Traceria ]

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The Rabbit
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Of all Card's books, this is the one I think would make the best movie.
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Dogbreath
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I've been a semi-frequent lurker here for several years - mostly just to read responses to some of OSC's books and articles, but I registered to reply to this thread...

I'm always curious when I hear adults worry about letting their teen aged children read certain books.

I was a bookworm as a child and spent most my summers in the library that was a 5 minute bike ride from my house. I read Ender's Game when I was 10, and by the time I was 13, I had read most of OSC's books. Actually, they were pretty tame compared to a lot of things I had read at that point, and though I didn't necessarily understand all the motivations behind characters actions (the sexual situations in Speaker For the Dead, for example, occurred to the 10 year old me as being silly and a little gross), the story resonated very strongly with me, and Ender's Game in particular has defined much of who I am today.

I would think, say, Speaker for The Dead is beneficial in a sense. Not because it shows Libo and Novinha in a sexually immoral relationship, but because it questions their actions and shows some of the tragic results of all their deceit.

Compare that to what an average kid sees in a week of TV watching - scenes that show adults and adolescents engaging in carefree sexual behavior and NOT showing any consequences. Just because that behavior is usually all implied (at least in what a kid generally sees, presuming he has good parents that block more adult programs) doesn't make the impact it has on a kids worldview any less. Children are very adept at picking up on innuendo, and even if they can't give you a clinical definition of intercourse, they can understand what's happening in the relationships with the people onscreen.

IMO, better to read books like that with your child and discuss what's going on then to simply forbid them to read it. They'll pick it up anyway - from TV, friends, school, or internet. At least this way you'll have some input, right?

Then again, I've never had any children (still practically a kid myself), so I can't speak from a parents point of view.

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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by Dogbreath:
Compare that to what an average kid sees in a week of TV watching

Exactly why my kids watch practically no TV.
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ketchupqueen
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Hmmm. I was let loose at the library and while my mom tried to monitor my reading material I was so voracious she often failed. I know I was reading books like the Kay Scarpetta mysteries at age 13 or so-- I'd probably prefer my kids not read that stuff until age 16 or 17 at the very earliest. Quite honestly a lot of the stuff went over my head. The stuff in Enchantment probably mostly goes over 12 year olds' heads, too, as would the "graphic" stuff in most of OSC's books (though you never know. Kids are exposed to a lot more than you think...) I would hope that the good messages get through subconsciously and the graphicness go over their heads, and while I wouldn't push it at them at that age, I wouldn't worry too much about them getting ahold of it without me knowing.
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Lupus
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I loved enchantment. I have read it countless times.

As for what children are exposed to, I guess it depends on the kid. I mentor at risk 3rd graders, and I am amazed at the movies that they have seen. Of course the kids that I volunteer with are not your typical 3rd grader, but it does amaze me. Heck, I would not want to watch some of the horror movies that these third graders watch...and I am 28. I was shocked the first time one of them was talking about watching the Saw movies.

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Traceria
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quote:
Originally posted by Lupus:
As for what children are exposed to, I guess it depends on the kid. I mentor at risk 3rd graders, and I am amazed at the movies that they have seen.

Two comments in response:
1) I agree that it really comes down to the kid. Not quite the same scenario here, but I used to work at a Christian bookstore summers between college and would get all sorts of people asking me if I thought Harry Potter was evil. I don't have any kids myself, but my response was always to the effect of: Know your kid. If you think they can handle it and not think it's real (and start jumping off of buildings trying to ride broomsticks), etc., then why not let them read it? You should know your child well enough to decide instead of writing off the book(s) to all kids of a certain age.

2) Similar to what you probably come across, my aunt, who was an elementary school teacher until this past year, had one child in her class that came in and would instantly fall asleep. Finally, they got down to the root of the problem. The poor kid lived with his uncle and stayed up most of the night because the uncle was doing the same, watching porn. It shocked and apalled her and basically has done the same for most of the folks she's shared the story with.

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PSI Teleport
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quote:
Ah, but so many of them are classified as Young Adult! I really don't think they're that bad, but I was a bit wary of letting my high school students read them. My own child - that's one thing! Someone elses children - well... I dunno.

Still, like I mentioned - have you watched TV recently?

But what would you consider to be a young adult? I certainly wouldn't put a twelve-year-old in that category. And I agree with Rivka on this. My kids don't watch much TV at all.
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DDDaysh
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Not watching TV doesn't mean they don't know anything! Besides, most books are not like TV. They might say something even as explicit as "And then they had sex", but unless the child REALLY knows what sex is, they aren't going to get a visual anyway...
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Sterling
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I started reading adult novels when I was eight and my sister gave me Piers Anthony's "Ogre, Ogre", in which a young woman flees from home in order to avoid being raped by a demon.

Had my parents known, I think they would have had a fit. And yet, I turned out okay.

I think maybe a lot of us are overprotective in the wrong ways. I'd much rather my child reads a book in which "graphic" material is soundly integrated into a story than, say, a sit-com where sexual promiscuity is played for laughs, or an action movie where innocents are killed without consequence. And in general, I think most bright children are far more capable of taking these things in and sliding their minds around them than we like to think. The most important thing, though, is to have good enough communication with one's children that they actually talk to you if they see or read something that bothers them.

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PSI Teleport
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quote:
And in general, I think most bright children are far more capable of taking these things in and sliding their minds around them than we like to think. The most important thing, though, is to have good enough communication with one's children that they actually talk to you if they see or read something that bothers them.
Yes, communication is important. But I would argue that it's also very important to make a judgment call about each piece of literature as it comes along, rather than making a sweeping statement about them, something to the effect of graphic material in literature is cool as long as it's "soundly integrated". It's harder to do that, because it means you have to be very active in your child's life as they make choices, rather than simply reactive as they suffer the consequences. Obviously, I am not suggesting that you should read every book your teenager is interested in, but younger children, yes, I believe their reading material should be approved. And it's very easy to do with the internet. It's very easy to find all kinds of wonderful literature that is also edifying for kids who are very young, so much so that allowing them to read "graphic" material at that age smacks of laziness.

I think that this statement, "And in general, I think most bright children are far more capable of taking these things in and sliding their minds around them than we like to think," is very strange. I more concerned with bright, inquisitive children homing in on the stuff they don't understand, doing more research, putting two and two together, and finding out much more about the world than they are really ready to know. That's pretty much how I was. Why would a "bright" child read and not learn? What would be the point of allowing a child to read a book with adult situations and complex moral themes, if they will just slide their brain around things they don't understand? Do you expect them to only glean the things that you find positive about the story? Don't get me wrong; I think a lot of stuff can go over a child's head, depending on how the scenes or events are written. That's why I encourage parents to know what their kids are reading and judge on a book-by-book basis.

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adenam
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Kids can read stuff and totally not notice anything/understand. I read a lot as a kid and was recently rereading some books I loved in middle school and was totally floored by how much sex was in them that I had missed. I had just vaguely remembered those parts as being not so interesting and had skimmed over them. I don't think there has been any negative effect on me and I know my mom read them too and she did not feel the need to discuss it with me.
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DDDaysh
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PSI, you're assuming that it would be wrong for a "bright" child to KNOW about sex - or any other graphic thing. I don't think very many people are concerned about their children KNOWING about sex. I think people are concerned about their children experimenting with sex. The type of research a "bright" child would do when they encounter that type of graphic material isn't really dangerous. MOST 10-year-olds who find out the biological functions of sex are not going to be all that eager to try it out. I also think that the way sex is handled in most adult novels is quite preferable to the way sex is handled in most of the things aimed at teens these days. Books are not as bad, but they aren't totally innocent either. Television and movies (as discussed above) are feeding kids ideas about adult feelings that are simply wrong. Part of the reason they are "wrong" is because TV and movies simply do not have the time and space to adequately discuss all the emotional ramifications involved. Adult literature does a better job of delving into the seriousness of everything. Even so, I don't think that a child who is not yet interested in sex will be swayed one way or another by reading about it in an mature context. The only way it can/could lead them astray is if they're already leaning toward an interest in that area anyway. If that's the case, and the child is really all that "bright", he/she will be doing that type of "research" pretty soon anyway!
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amberj88
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I enjoyed Enchantment immensely. It seemed like Card left a few loose ends. I was wondering if he was planning on doing a sequel.
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antronics
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..It was alright. Not my favorite OSC novel. It kept me entertained from cover to cover, but nothing more then that. Which is great by most standards, but I've come to expect more from OSC.
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Lanfear
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This is an interesting thread to find. I just gave my 12 year old sister Enchantment. Apparently I shouldn't have? I don't remember too much of the "graphic" things, but she wanted to read Twilight and I had to nip that in the bud.
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adenam
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quote:
she wanted to read Twilight and I had to nip that in the bud
[Laugh]

That's a good reaction but after she finishes Enchantment you shouldn't stop her from reading Twilight so she can see for herself what trash it is, especialy compared to Enchantment.

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DDDaysh
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I thought twilight was actually pretty good. I mean it wasn't on the level of Enchantment (very few things are) but it was a fun, semi-sweet little tale.

The next book though - um, not nearly as good!

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adenam
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My sentiments exactly!

I was thinking of the whole series in general, since it's very hard to stop reading them in the middle. The trashiness only hits you when you've made up the sleep you've lost reading waaaaay too late at night.

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Lanfear
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quote:
Originally posted by DDDaysh:
I thought twilight was actually pretty good. I mean it wasn't on the level of Enchantment (very few things are) but it was a fun, semi-sweet little tale.

The next book though - um, not nearly as good!

Having read the first twilight, I can only assume you are female.

The books are emotional pornography in the same vein as romance novels. Not a shred of a real romance in it at all. Edward acts exactly like every female wants a man to :
-He is extremely beautiful
-He is interested in a plain girl
-He is extremely protective of her
-He is "unique"
-He doesn't want to sleep with her (from my experience with the first novel. This appeals to girl's notion that men only want them for sexual reasons)
-He is extremely smart.

To put it simply, it changes girl's views of what romance and and just titillates them on a base level. Anyone who sees the beauty of Speaker For the Dead, and doesn't see the lack thereof in Twilight just isn't looking hard enough.

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rivka
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<-- female, thinks the Twilight books are awful

Not every female wants a man to act like Edward. Way to overgeneralize! [Razz]

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adenam
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I actually do want an abusive, controlling bofriend that wants to suck my blood, but that's just me.
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DDDaysh
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Yes I'm female, but I didn't feel the first twilight book was anything close to emotional pornography. I've read some pretty BAD teenage romance novels - having spent my youth in a general absence of decent public libraries. Twilight wasn't that. For one thing, it captured "first love" quite well. Even if you want to say it was nothing but an unrealistic sappy romance - at least it was an unrealistic sappy romance that made you feel things. Or - it made me feel things anyway.

I'm not saying it is on the same level as anything Card has written. For one thing, it's just not that serious. She isn't examining the root cause of the universe or deep human nature. She is merely telling and entertaining story. If you don't like it - well, I can hardly blame you. There are LOTS of things other people find entertaining that I can't stand either - Monty Python and "The Princess Bride" just to name the two top ones that get me ostracized.

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adenam
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I don't mind all-encompassing "first love". What I do mind is when that is damaging and abusive.
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DDDaysh
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damaging and abusive? Did you and I read the same book?
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Jeorge
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I think what's damaging is the fact that teens who read this are at risk of blurring the line between relationship and obsession, because this book was certainly not about any sort of healthy relationship. Though that might not be what adenam meant.
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DDDaysh
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Hmm, that may perhaps be true. Maybe I had a skewed version of being a teenager, but in my experience most teen relationships that go beyond the utterly frivolous are pretty obsessive. It's rather the nature of the beast, since you're dealing with adolescents experiencing completely new emotions.

However, I can see your point in saying that it may not be something we want to encourage in children. Still, they didn't have sex, they didn't have any babies, and they didn't do any drugs. To me the creepiest thing was that a guy who was, in reality, more than 100 years old was interested in a teenage girl.

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Lanfear
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noun - pornography
creative activity of no literary or artistic value other than to stimulate sexual desire

You said it made you "feel things" check
You said it didn't have the same literary value as OSC's work check

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adenam
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Sorry-I forgot we were only talking about the first book. It's before Edward decides he has to approve of Bella's friends and Bella becomes suicidal.
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Sterling
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quote:
Originally posted by PSI Teleport:
Yes, communication is important. But I would argue that it's also very important to make a judgment call about each piece of literature as it comes along, rather than making a sweeping statement about them, something to the effect of graphic material in literature is cool as long as it's "soundly integrated". It's harder to do that, because it means you have to be very active in your child's life as they make choices, rather than simply reactive as they suffer the consequences. Obviously, I am not suggesting that you should read every book your teenager is interested in, but younger children, yes, I believe their reading material should be approved. And it's very easy to do with the internet. It's very easy to find all kinds of wonderful literature that is also edifying for kids who are very young, so much so that allowing them to read "graphic" material at that age smacks of laziness.

I think that this statement, "And in general, I think most bright children are far more capable of taking these things in and sliding their minds around them than we like to think," is very strange. I more concerned with bright, inquisitive children homing in on the stuff they don't understand, doing more research, putting two and two together, and finding out much more about the world than they are really ready to know. That's pretty much how I was. Why would a "bright" child read and not learn? What would be the point of allowing a child to read a book with adult situations and complex moral themes, if they will just slide their brain around things they don't understand? Do you expect them to only glean the things that you find positive about the story? Don't get me wrong; I think a lot of stuff can go over a child's head, depending on how the scenes or events are written. That's why I encourage parents to know what their kids are reading and judge on a book-by-book basis.

I'm tempted to just roll my eyes. The level of presumption and self-righteousness that seems directed at my comment is completely over-the-top to me. But I'll attempt to address this seriously, though I suggest that this will be the last time if you presume to lecture to me.

First of all, I don't imagine that I'm ever going to have complete control over everything my child will read and see. That's part of why I value communication first; my child should feel comfortable telling me they saw something that makes them feel uncomfortable. And that stance can't help but be in some opposition to acting as a wide-reaching censor; if my child thinks I'll disapprove, they're more likely to see what I don't want them to and hide that they're doing so, especially if encouraged by others. I can't imagine a trusting relationship with a child who didn't feel free to look about a library on their own reconnaissance.

Secondly, by "slide their brain around", I don't mean that it will go over their heads at all. I mean that they'll take it in and hopefully- with a parent's help if need be- they'll integrate it into their knowledge without it causing them undue stress, or recognize that certain aspects are really fiction in the sense that people do not usually behave thus in day-to-day life. Life is not G-rated: people do have relationships, and sometimes those relationships have aspects that are downright messy. People do commit violence upon one another, sometimes for terrible or stupid reasons, and sometimes even upon children. I don't have a problem with a child understanding that, so long as it doesn't make them view the world as a hostile or frightening place. Though frankly, in many cases, that seems more likely to occur as a result of their peers than anything they might happen to read in a book.

Violence and sex in visual entertainment are more often just that, entertainment- and that fact can be both confusing and disturbing to children. When I say I'd rather something be well integrated, I mean I'd much rather that over the course of an extended relationship the characters begin to explore the sexual aspects of their romance rather than the main characters have sex because it's an hour into the movie and the script needs them to artificially bond as an impetus for one to go on a killing spree when the other is brutally murdered. The former might give an intelligent child a glimpse of the way real humans interact; the latter might be passing on the message that sex and violence are linked in disturbing ways.

Now for heaven's freaking sake, NOTHING in what I've said is any kind of suggestion that I'm offering a blanket statement in a substitute for common sense. At present, my daughter is perfectly happy to stay in the grade school section of the library, and is mostly interested in Boynton, Dr. Seuss, and anything having to do with Dora the Explorer. (The first two I like very much; the latter, I try to tolerate with good grace.) But as her interests broaden, at her pace, I'm not going to have any problem with her reading Harry Potter, or Isaac Asimov, or... Orson Scott Card, for that matter, when she chooses to. That doesn't mean I'm going to turn a blind eye if she comes to the check-out desk with a Harlequin Romance or a Mike Hammer novel or The Story of O or some such. I hope that if such an eventuality comes about, I will have a relationship with my child that allows me to explain why.

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quote:
Originally posted by adenam:
Sorry-I forgot we were only talking about the first book. It's before Edward decides he has to approve of Bella's friends and Bella becomes suicidal.

I don't know... I like the Twilight series, and I don't think Edward had to approve of Bella's friends, but her best friends were huge giant werewolves, so that could have had something to do with it.

I also like Stardust between than Enchantment. In Enchantment the bad guys are too bad and the good ones too good. It's a bit irratating, and there's also the lecturing as well. Plus I don't really think Baba Yaga... did stuff like that with a bear... I'll see if I can find sources though, but I don't remember that being part of the legend

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http://www.recovery-man.com/abusive/abusive_signs.htm
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No, Edward doesn't actually do any of that stuff. He does try to keep Bella from the werewolves, perhaps because he fears her being eaten but he doesn't pressure her into sex or any of that stuff.
He does have a temper but he tries not to take it out on her. He was totally ready to tear up those guys. But I don't think he fits the profile, except their relationship is a bit too intense, and they do have to keep so many secrets since he is a blood sucking vampire.

It's fiction though. I was more annoyed when I reread Children of the Mind for the millionth time and realized what unhealthy advice Valentine gave Novinhua. There's no way staying with an abusive man is good for the family. Those kids and her were a wreck from abuse. It's too bad the dude she was having an affair with couldn't have just married her anyway, but there was that whole stubborn Novinhua thing going on which was annoying. Shame she couldn't have met Ender first. There's no real solution for abuse like that than leaving the abusive man unless he's really ready to change.

But it is fiction though, but it can get under the skin and lead to a lot of discussions.

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adenam
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quote:
He does try to keep Bella from the werewolves, perhaps because he fears her being eaten but he doesn't pressure her into sex or any of that stuff.
He does have a temper but he tries not to take it out on her. He was totally ready to tear up those guys. But I don't think he fits the profile, except their relationship is a bit too intense, and they do have to keep so many secrets since he is a blood sucking vampire

I guess those things just bother me more than you.
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