posted
..Hello all, I'm new here, so I'll introduce myself. I started out reading Ender's Game (like everyone else haha). Of course I had to read everything else in the Enderverse, finishing recently with Ender in Exile, and including A War of Gifts, and First Meetings. I haven't read all of the short Ender stories from the IGMS website, but I will soon enough.
To start out, I was wondering if any of you could comment (without spoilers haha) on the Ender short stories from IGMS, as in which ones are really good and involved with the Enderverse, (like the way the Mazor story gave good insight about his story, his involvement in the second war, how he came back to battle school etc.)
Secondly, I'd like for some of you to clear up some discrepancies I think I've read in the Ender books. In Ender in Exile, it states that Ender and Peter conversed many times, and that Peter got to read The Hedgemon, but I'm pretty sure that in the speaker series, it states that Ender and Peter only spoke once, and that Peter did not get to read The Hedgemon before he died.
Continuing with Ender, in Ender in Exile, Ender states that the human race got all the technology that they are currently using for the colonazation from the formics, and the only thing humans were good for was long distance communication. Just for clarification, the long distance communication was only possable because of the formics use of the anstable, which uses he philotic web, correct?
Now on to some of the other Orson Scott Card books I've read.
In Pastwatch, it bothers me that Kemel (I believe thats his name), with his strong religious upbringing and beliefs, never brought up the questions about the afterlife and human souls considering that they were going to change the history of the world twice, and remove billions of human lives from existence.
Still in Pastwatch, it also bothers me that Kemel decided right away and never changed his mind, that he had to be murdered after he completed his portion of the mission. To me there was no reason for that to happen, him living with the tribe could have helped with talking to Christopher Colombas and his shipmates. I just think that a brilliant person such as Kemel would have seen that he in no way shape or form had to be murdered. Also, speaking of his murder, the way he proclaimed that his deeds were done in the name of Allah, how would that help the pastwatchers goal of world peace and unity? With a violent strike from the sworn enemy?
Also in Pastwatch, the changes that the team made to history doesn't really seem like they stooped the things they were after stoping. Various enviromental problems, but most glaring to me is the two glaring factions that came to power, Colombas' contenants verses Europe. I thought that the story would go into detail of forming a one world government the way the shadow series did with the hedgemon.
Reading this might make some of you think that I dislike OSC and his works, but to be honest, OSC is my favorite author and I love everything I've read (except for Invasive Procedures, lol.) Most books I've read I didn't care enough to seek out others to comment about, but I can do that all day with any OSC book. Thanks fellow fans for your input.
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quote: In Pastwatch, it bothers me that Kemel (I believe thats his name), with his strong religious upbringing and beliefs, never brought up the questions about the afterlife and human souls considering that they were going to change the history of the world twice, and remove billions of human lives from existence.
Well, if the humans never existed, then their souls never did either, right?
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posted
In the 'physics' of Pastwatch, the causal chain that leads to the time-travel machine still exists, independent of thenew timeline. That causal chain includes all the decisions made by the no-longer-existing humans. To the extent that you believe that decisions are made by souls, this implies that their souls still exist, at least in the same way that the souls of any other dead people still exist: Their decisions are still having effects. So, if you further believe in a god who will preserve those souls for an afterlife, I don't see why it should treat these souls any differently. They still made decisions that affected the world one way or another; they were still cruel or kind, as the case might be. As a theological problem, I don't think this is a very interesting one.
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posted
In Ender's Game, Peter gets to read "The Hive Queen," not "The Hegemon," he never gets to read the Hegemon, in any of the books, and it's made very clear in Ender's Game, and even more so in Shadow of the Giant, that the book comes out after he dies.
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posted
..King of Men, I believe in Pastwatch, the scientists that made the time machine went to great lengths to dissolve any illusion of a "casual chain of events". He goes on to say something to the effect of "theres no bother even of thinking of them, because that would be the same of thinking of nothing" The point of my Pastwatch question is, if I remember the book correctly, I believe that Kemal, being a practicing Muslum, would have at least brought up the theological problem to someone.
Orincoro, that is my point. In Ender in Exile, Peter gets to read The Hegemon.
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posted
Well, in the first place, I don't see where a fictional physicist has any business arguing with my interpretation of the math. Next he'll be telling me that there's no CPT invariance, and that's just wacky.
In the second place, Kemal would presumably bring this up with his mullah, who would tell him to ignore the wacky scientists, obviously Allah will save any soul he wants to save. The physics are not really relevant to the theology, because the theists have a nice infinity they can insert anywhere they like: An omnipotent god is not limited by human action, even if that action interferes with the time stream. As theological problems go, the one about evil is much more interesting. OSC doesn't see any need to explain this, since it doesn't move the story along but requires introducing the mullah. The story can just about support the wacky scientist, since the physics are made up and therefore need to be explained. The theology is trivial; having an extra scene to explain it would be more infodump than the story can handle.
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posted
..Again, King of Men, I disagree. Let me count the ways...
1) The fictional physicist has every right to argue with your inerpretation of math, because he is the physicist who developed the time machine. To be honest, he doesn't have to argue with you primarily because you and your real world math aren't involved in this SF novel.
2) As Kemal bringing this up with his mullah, or allah, I wouldn't know because it wasn't hinted at in the story.
3) As for the theology being trivial, OSC is a Mormon with strong beliefs, and when the story contains a character who has strong religious beliefs, and the story involves obliterating billions of souls, I believe there is a place within the story to explore the religious characters struggle with that.
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quote:I believe there is a place within the story to explore the religious characters struggle with that.
Sure there's a place for it, if the author so wants. But he didn't. He wanted to tell a different story.
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posted
My question antronics is did you look possible answers before asking your questions?
With regards to technologies achieved, it said that they got a lot more than just faster than light communication. The Little Doctor came from a Formic idea. Gravity manimpulation used to keep humans in one piece during star flight was learned from the Formics. It says that they used their technology before they knew how it worked and still didn't know exactly how it worked 3000 years later.
As for that business with the Hegemon, here's some quotes from the books.
Ender's Game, Chapter 15 Back and forth across the ansible Ender and Peter spoke, with Peter pouring out ths story of his days and years, his crimes and his kindnesses. And when he died, Ender wrote a second volume, again signed by the Speaker for the Dead. Together, his two books were called the Hive-Queen and the Hegemon, and they were holy writ.
Shadow of the Giant, Chapter 26 Peter lived for some time after that, despite his weak heart. Hoping the whole time that Ender might write the book he wanted. But when he died, the book was still unwritten.
Ender in Exile, Chapter 19 When Peter had told of his whole life, everything he did that mattered to come up in these conversations, Ender spent only five days writing a slim volume called the Hegemon. He sent a copy to Peter with a note. "Since the author will be Speaker for the Dead, this can't be published until after you die." Peter wrote back, "It can't happen a moment too soon for me." But in a letter to Valentine, he poured out his heart about what it meant to him to feel so completely understood. "He didn't conceal any of the bad things I did, but he kept them in balance, in perspective." Valentine showed the letter to Ender and he laughed. "Balance? How can anyone know the relative weight of sins and great achievements. Fives chickens do not make a cow."
Now, in Ender's Game and Shadow of the Giant, it says that it's not written until after Peter dies. If interpreted it the way you have done, it would mean that nothing was written at all. But it could also just mean (as supported by Ender in Exile) that it hasn't been published yet. We didn't say that Card wrote Ender's Game until after it was published, not before. Then in Ender in Exile, it only says he sent Peter a copy and said it couldn't be published until after Peter died. He could have changed it or done whatever with it in the time up to publishing it.
Posts: 54 | Registered: Mar 2008
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posted
..In regards to Pastwatch, Ias the reader think that the theology is an important aspect that was left out. And in addition to my other concerns with Pastwatch, I feel like there is more that could and should have been done with this book. But I just noticed somewhere that there is two other Pastwatch books in the works, so those two will most likely clear up my other concerns with the series.
Josh, thanks for bringing up quotes from the books. One of the reasons I decided to make a thread about these questions here on the forums is that I don't have the speaker series (on loan to mother in law) and wanted to clear some things up with other OSC fans. As for the dialog, it appears to me that it is just a mistake, and a rather good one in my opinion. I was always a little sad that Peter did not get to read the Hegemon, but EiE changed that, for the better.
I didn't mean to provoke this much hostility, honestly. I am just in love with OSC's works and am in search for conversation about said works. I just finished Folk of the Fringe, and loved it, and now am working on Treason. Just an OSC fan looking for conversation about OSC's works.....
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posted
I don't know about hostility, I just like to be percise. But it does seem like people really like to find flaws and such in his writings. I've seen some but generally they don't matter to the story. I don't mind it though, responding to this post was kinda fun, just looking up the quotes from the text. I don't have it all memorized but I can usually remember where certian things were discussed and then find it in the book. Easiest thing is to have an exact few words from the text you can remember and put it to Google Books.
I am a fan of Card's books, but I enjoy the Enderverse most of all. I certainly couldn't recall this kind of stuff in his other series but I do find them fun.
Posts: 54 | Registered: Mar 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Josh Cooper: I don't know about hostility, I just like to be percise.
I have to say, I laughed out loud here.
You think I sound hostile? Or just that the line is funny... The real question is if you can get what it's from, but it's a stretch.
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posted
..I didn't think you were being hostile Josh, was more talking about King of Men.
I like being precise also, that's why I made this thread.
As for caring about the little mistakes in the writing, I don't care at all, I love OSC's work and will read anything he writes (currently reading Treason, then Magic Street.) The reason I point them out is to make sure that I'm not the one remembering wrong and to see what the other fans think about them. As for the Peter reading the Hegemon before he dies or not, I think it was a mistake in writing (which is to be expected in a series as grand as the Enderverse.) And from now on I'm going to use what EiE said, and that is that Peter got to read it before he died.
As for the other questions, I'd still like some input from the fans as to my other two Pastwatch questions (not the theology one.)
Thanks for the replies fellas!
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quote:Originally posted by Josh Cooper: You think I sound hostile? Or just that the line is funny... The real question is if you can get what it's from, but it's a stretch.
It was the funny line. If it's from something, I'm completely in the dark.
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posted
Oh, I didn't read the stuff on Pastwatch, just Enderverse posts.
The line was a sort of spin off of Ender's line in Speaker for the Dead. He was talking about a student and said that she wasn't being arrogant, just precise, with regards to Demosthenes' History of the World.
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quote:Originally posted by Sean Monahan: Was "precise" misspelled in the book too?
What can I say, I'm horrible with spelling. These quick few lines don't get checked for errors usually. I look over the longer ones but I'm not to worried because people usually know what I mean.
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posted
phew. It was noticeably hard for me to refrain posting to make sure Josh knew why the line was funny. I'm glad that was resolved.
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