posted
Why did Jane allow the message from Qing-Jao go out as it was?
I understand that if she had simply prevented the message entirely that it would have alerted Congress to Jane's eventual nature.
However, there are two scenarios (that I can think of) that make Jane's decision to allow Qing-Jao's Message go out as she wrote it flawed:
1) Jane could simply have stopped the messages. Yes, this would eventually have alerted Starways Congress. However, as Qing-Jao predicted, it would have taken a great deal of time for Congress to respond by sending out a fleet to "deal" with Path.
At this point Jane could simply have re-established communication with Path, thereby preventing the destruction of the Colony. Perhaps a resolution could have been reached by the time the second fleet arrived on Path.
Also, are we to assume that the Little Doctor doesn't require computer use to be fired? Why would Jane simply not allow it to be turned on? She didn't even need to black out the Lusitania Fleet. She could have simply not allowed the captains of the ship to use the Molecular Disruption Device. Eventually, someone would have realized an error, but this action would have bought tremendous time. An eternity.
Hell, Jane could simply have diverted the ships without telling them. Sent them to another location (even returning them to their original location) without letting them OR the monitors of the ships know what was happening.
Jane could simply have diverted the fleet and by the time anyone knew what was going on it would have given an enormous amount of time for the Lusitanians to save themselves. With decades more time a great deal could have been accomplished.
I was going to go into a second scenario. One in which Jane could simply have altered Qing-Jao's message when it went out to read as faulty. To be full of holes that would have caused its receivers to dismiss it. She could have manipulated it so that it seemed as if someone had subverted Han Fei-tzu and sent out a wrongful message. Then later sent a new message saying that Han had taken control again. This would sow the seeds of distrust in Path and would have caused Congress to focus on them instead of Lusitania. It probably would not have warranted death for Path, but instead a permanent failing of trust in the "super intelligence" that lived there.
I love the Ender's Game books, but after going back through and re-reading these there are simply too many flaws for me to fully enjoy what I before liked in ignorance.
Posts: 3 | Registered: Aug 2010
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First, any modification of the message significant enough to lead to a desired result would have had the same result as cutting it off entirely - eventual knowledge that somebody powerful enough to be a force worth shutting off the ansibles for exists. Since ansibles are not supposed to fail if I recall correctly, shutting off communication for even just a time would have had the same effect as well.
I'm not sure it's ever stated that the Dr. Device requires computer use to be fired, at least on any network Jane can influence (remember, offline or protected machines can't be reached by "her"). I'm pretty sure this applies to her ability to control the ships as well; it's pretty much implied that she can't control them directly.
Posts: 127 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
The exposition in the books explained all of this. Maybe you don't agree with the reasons that Jane didn't do all of those things, but she did have reasons. And she did actually do some of those things later on in the story. There is no flaw in the storytelling, at least not in those areas.
And no, Xenocide and Children of the Mind are NOT bad books. They're excellent books. Maybe they're not to your taste, but just because you don't like something doesn't make it bad. I've read them both several times and loved the story each time--AND the way it was told.
If you don't understand something or have questions, then read the book again--or come here and ask questions with citations from the text so that other people can find the places that you're referring to and help you find the answers. But to just come here and declare that there are storytelling flaws without any discussion? And then your first responder states that they're just crappy books?? How arrogant. AND inaccurate.
Posts: 2880 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
If you want to talk about Jane's questionable decisions how about the fact that she was the one who alerted Congress about the xenobiologists breaking the law in their dealings with the Piggies, thus causing the arrest order to be issued for Miro and Ouanda, and starting the Lusitania rebellion that lead to every problem for the next two books? And all of this largely because she was mad at Ender for ignoring her, and she felt rather satisfied for having done it.
quote: "Recommendation: Immediate termination of Lusitania Colony."
There, thought Jane. That ought to stir things up a bit.
And Xenocide is an awesome book. Certainly better than Shadow of the Hegemon. In my opinion, even better than Speaker for the Dead.
Posts: 1569 | Registered: Dec 2004
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quote:And no, Xenocide and Children of the Mind are NOT bad books. They're excellent books. Maybe they're not to your taste, but just because you don't like something doesn't make it bad.
You may argue that taste is subjective, but in that case your claim that they're excellent books is as subjective as my claim that they're bad books.
quote:Certainly better than Shadow of the Hegemon.
Shadow of the Hegemon (same as Ender's Game and Speaker for the Dead) was consistent in regards to the ruleset of its universe and the motivations of the characters. Solutions to problems are produced through very very hard work, amazing bravery, and occasionally tragic sacrifice.
Xenocide has a guy discover the fundamental principles of the universe from inside a jailcell through sheer intelligence within a few days. Happily enough those amazing principles lead *simultaneously* to: - the magical cure for Miro's paralysis - the anti-Descolada recipe - a way to easily teleport across the universe - two new young attractive protagonists, just what is needed for the next book in the series.
It's just a bad bad book. Or if you want it put differently: it's a book whose plot and resolution goes completely against my tastes and my ideas of how any proper SF universe should work.
Posts: 676 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Aris Katsaris: it's a book whose plot and resolution goes completely against my tastes and my ideas of how any proper SF universe should work.
Fair enough, but in my opinion it's a book which intelligently deals with philosophical themes and the struggles of highly flawed though very human protagonists. A story which manages to examine complex moral issues while making all the conflicting sides understandable and not painting anyone as the obvious "bad guy". I can forgive the Deus ex machina ending for the several hundred pages of compelling literature that precedes it.
While I do enjoy Shadow of the Hegemon, it's essentially just a political thriller. I guess that's awesome if you enjoy all the political maneuvering and war games, but I prefer more thought provoking sci-fi that makes me contemplate deeper questions.
Posts: 1569 | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
I simply dislike the heavy-handed use of Deus ex machina. That's all Jane is in the story. A way for the author to do anything at any time with no restriction EXCEPT when it fits the story for her to have restrictions.
It is unlikely in the extreme that Jane is completed unattached to the navigation systems of a ship. Even more unlikely that she would be separated from the weapons system. For the three thousand years of her existence not one person outside of Ender could have known about her and would not have put measures into place to prevent her intrusions. As stated in the books many, many times.
I love Orson Scott Card's writings. I've just started reading Children of the Mind after having read every other book in the "Ender universe" all for the second time. I enjoy the characters. I like the idea that Jane is God. The idea that she will eventually be responsible for another universe in which another version of her is created and does the same, so on and so forth.
I just don't like the shift from rational, reasonable logic to obvious, forced plot.
I do agree that Ender's series is far more philosophical than Beans', though I love the Shadow books precisely for their war games and political maneuvering. I just don't feel as if Xenocide was up to the standard of the other books.
Posts: 3 | Registered: Aug 2010
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quote:I simply dislike the heavy-handed use of Deus ex machina.
I don't think the use was heavy-handed at all. I thought it was logical and well presented, especially as it came through the lens of the Hive Queen and Father Trees' minds. Was it Deus ex? Maybe-- but remember that it wasn't Jane that came up with all these things. Ella came up with the anti-descolada, after all, and she had to hold the "fact" of it in her mind in order for it to take shape Outside.
quote:Xenocide has a guy discover the fundamental principles of the universe from inside a jailcell through sheer intelligence within a few days. Happily enough those amazing principles lead *simultaneously* to: - the magical cure for Miro's paralysis - the anti-Descolada recipe - a way to easily teleport across the universe - two new young attractive protagonists, just what is needed for the next book in the series.
It wasn't a single individual that came up with the theory to go Outside: it was Grego and Olhado and Jane and Ender and Valentine all working together.
And in the next book, the two new attractive people kill Ender.
quote:It is unlikely in the extreme that Jane is completed unattached to the navigation systems of a ship. Even more unlikely that she would be separated from the weapons system.
quote:Originally posted by visnecesse: It is unlikely in the extreme that Jane is completed unattached to the navigation systems of a ship. Even more unlikely that she would be separated from the weapons system. For the three thousand years of her existence not one person outside of Ender could have known about her and would not have put measures into place to prevent her intrusions. As stated in the books many, many times.
No measures would need to be put in place because there would be no way for her to do it.
Imagine for a moment that our current world wide web became intelligent. Nobody knows about it so no one will be able to do anything against it. Can this life form launch nukes? No. Can it control our submarines and aircraft carriers? No. Can it have any influence over any computers or electronic devices that are not connected to the web? No.
Now maybe (and this is a BIG maybe) it could find a way to control our UAVs so you might have to worry about Predators or Global Hawks raining Hellfires down on you but I find this even doubtful.
Posts: 891 | Registered: Feb 2010
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posted
I'm forced to agree that things get pretty whacked out toward the end of the series, Xenocide is probably my favorite (though I think SFtD is probably much better), though Children of the Mind is better as the conclusion to the series than in and of itself.
Posts: 127 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
Sigh. Scott R, will you write SPOILER ALERT next time?? I just began Children Of the Mind and was comparing my thoughts to Xenocide with those on this board. Then WHAMO, I find out Ender is killed! Dang, I didn't want to know that!
Posts: 8 | Registered: Aug 2010
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posted
Xena, After a certain point, you really can't expect to come into a thread discussing a book and expect it to be spoiler free. Xenocide is 19 years old. Berating Scott for not posting a spoiler warning is not reasonable.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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posted
Hmmm, MrSquicky... If you call that "berating" then you haven't seen me at full force! Your point, however, is well taken. I am a newbie to OSC and did not even discover him until one year ago (if you can believe that)! I have been reading everything he has written since then and so I sometimes forget that he has been around (as you so eloquently put it) for over 20 years.
Posts: 8 | Registered: Aug 2010
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posted
Xena, No worries. I guess really what I was trying to say is that people aren't going to careful about spoiler warnings considering decades old books - and they're right in this, so be aware of that reading discussions of old books that you haven't read could spoil plot points for you.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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posted
As far as the Deus Ex Machina argument, I think the reason it feels that way is that it's not quite logical for there to be these leaps, certainly not the way that Speaker was laid out logically. I'd say that there is an internal logic, though, because, thematically, Speaker is exploring the nature of interpersonal relationships, and the power we have to change others. Xenocide is exploring the idea of faith, hope and salvation (not necessarily in a religious sense). Within that framework, I think it suddenly makes much more sense that the first 300 pages are all about how terrible everything is and how there's no hope, and then everything simultaneously reaches a crisis and after the storm suddenly people are again able to draw together and create a way out of an impossible situation.
Prior to the "crisis" section of the book, every encounter with the Ribeira family shows them being exceedingly dysfunctional, along with the Han family and Wang-mu. Post-crisis, all those who have ridden the storm come to a clearer understanding and they are suddenly collaborating and working towards a more-or-less shared vision. Grego is able to make the intuitive leaps partly because he has let go of his pride that he already knows the answers to these questions (having seen just how far astray pride can lead him) and partly because he is finally willing to listen to the ideas of others. Olhado is regarded as a non-participant in the family because he doesn't join in the family squabbles, but after the purging crisis he is regarded as a resource to be tapped. Han Fei-tzu is at first living a careful lie, and denying the evidence of his powerful mind to live up to a pretense of obedience that is what he believes his dead wife wanted for him. After his crisis he is willing to use his own judgment and find his own "path" (pardon the pun) rather than adhere to what he imagines his wife would advise him to do.
I think there's evidence that the miraculous ending is earned by the themes. Now, if those aren't themes you're interested in exploring via SF, then I agree, it's not the book for you.
Posts: 368 | Registered: Dec 2005
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