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Author Topic: Sequels
Jeff C.
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So OSC has begun two very different series last year, and he plans on continuing each, which is great news for fans, but I have to ask: what other books, whether they are decades older or fairly new, would you rather see sequels to? I know I know I've got a few...

1. Worthing Saga. I think this book ended perfectly for a sequel. The story was epic, the universe was vast, and Card explored a lot of ideas that I really connected with. It was the first book of his since Ender's Game that I really couldn't put down. It was also a culmination of all of his early stories and one of his first novels, but remastered. Truly great characters in classic OSC form.

2. Pastwatch. The first book was great and one of my favorites. I'd really like to see those proposed sequels that OSC said he was going to write. Whatever happened to the Garden of Eden sequel? There's so much patential there and I'd love to see it get a treatment.

3. Another Ender book. Personally, while I found the first half a little slow, I rather enjoyed Ender in Exile. I guess I've just grown to love Ender's character so much that never seeing him again really bums me out. He's by far the best character OSC has ever created, so let's see another EiE mid-quil. Ender traveled around the galaxy quite a bit before Speaker. I'm sure there's still plenty of stories to tell.

4. Alvin Maker's last book. It's coming, we know that much, just like the inevitable Shadows sequel, but when? This feels like a series that just needs to be over now, and I honestly refuse to read the rest of it until it is (I haven't bought the last two books because I want to knock them out right before the last novel hits), despite how much I want to.

5. Sequel to Lovelock (aka Rasputin). Rasputin was in the works for a little while, but according to Wikipedia, OSC had to stop because he ran into a problem that required going back and rewriting the beginning. Then, I assume he just never got back to work on it. It's a shame, too, because the first book is actually pretty good and demands a sequel (I think they had a trilogy planned or something). This one is looking very unlikely since it has been twenty years now and still no word, although his website still has it as in development...

Anyway, those are my top choices. I would advise against listing the Lost Gate or Pathfinder, since OSC has said those are his next books to get sequels and that they will arrive sometime soon (this year or the next), but it's your lists so don't let me stop you. [ROFL]

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mr_porteiro_head
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I used to be really anxious for OSC to finish his series, but not anymore. If he's excited about these new series, I'd much rather him write in them than forcing him to go back to stories he worked on decades ago. Stories he probably had reasons for not completing at the time.

I'd much rather get great new books from him than closure for his old series. And it seems to me that the best chance of getting a great book from him is for him to write what he's excited about.

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rivka
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Amen, Porter.
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Stephan
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I enjoy OSC for his characterization. What more can be added to Ender's? Sure, stories can be told, but watching him grow and change is basically done and over.
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Jake
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quote:
Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
I used to be really anxious for OSC to finish his series, but not anymore. If he's excited about these new series, I'd much rather him write in them than forcing him to go back to stories he worked on decades ago. Stories he probably had reasons for not completing at the time.

I'd much rather get great new books from him than closure for his old series. And it seems to me that the best chance of getting a great book from him is for him to write what he's excited about.

Yep.
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Kelly1101
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I don't know about a Worthing sequel. I feel like the Worthing Saga is all tied up neat with a bow-- it doesn't NEED any more. If he got an idea about that world and decided to write something else in that vein, I'd be along for the ride. But it's not like something is missing there, for me.

Pastwatch, I just read that this week for the first time. I'm pretty conflicted about it. I really really really don't like the "killing an entire world / history -- to change the past" idea. I just can't embrace that... I get the parallel with Justice's world in Worthing Saga, but it's different in big ways-- you're erasing that these people ever lived. I have difficulty with the idea that the human race as a whole, with the level of technology in that book, could not figure out how to feed everyone. It seems like that was really contrived and implausible. I don't know, there were just a lot of things wrong with that book, and how in the world would he do sequels? If he did one focused earlier in history than 1492, and people went back and hit the reset button on the world again, would that then erase what happened in the first book? Ugh.

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mr_porteiro_head
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I actually really liked that aspect of Pastwatch. I like the fact that there was a big price to pay to do the impossible.
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Kelly1101
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I just think that it was silly. As happened before-- they had no way of knowing that their interference wouldn't end up causing something WORSE. It was a gamble and not at all close to a sure thing-- and killing an entire planet full of people on a "maybe" doesn't sit well.

Plus I'm not wild about dealing with the time-travel paradoxes in that way.

And the idea that the Central Americans could have taken over Europe makes my head hurt. It's not possible, not even plausible, even given the series of events in the book. Yes there is an outside chance that possibly the people of Central America could have begun to catch up in a few years to a technological level that took hundreds of years in other parts of the world, I guess. And if that happened, it is possible that they could have repulsed the Europeans. But to actually cross the ocean and invade? That has only happened when the population being invaded is at a HUGE technological disadvantage. That ocean makes invasion a tricky proposition and I don't think that even if the CA's were at a technological level at or even slightly above the Europeans, that they could have actually taken it over as an invading force across the Atlantic. They would have had to develop MUCH MUCH better technology, weaponry, and germs.

I don't know, things like that, and like the contrived "we are so advanced but can't make enough food, guess we should commit suicide", and somehow having certainty that they would help instead of making a worse future, blech-- all of this combined kept me from enjoying the story as much as I should have.

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Jeff C.
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There were a few long shots in it, but still, I don't think too many writers could have come up with a better scenario. OSC wrote this book simply because he wanted to explore the world of Columbus, and that's pretty much what he he did. Granted, time travel will always cause problems, but the fact that he openly admitted (and even pointed out) that everyone alive would, in essence, cease to exist (something that very few time travel films or books explore) deserves props. Now I do not really think people would really give up their lives to do what needed to be done (the vote had to be unanimous), but still, the story was fun and I think the idea was executed well.

In response to how OSC would make a sequel, he already said he wanted to make one about the garden of eden so presumably he has a rough idea of what he wants to do. But regardless, there wouldn't need to be much of a confliction with the first book if you simply have it so that they never travel back in time, but simply observe it. I just wish OSC would say if he still plans to write it or not.

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craig_childs
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1. Worthing Saga - Personally I loved HOT SLEEP and was disappointed when WORTHING SAGA was written to replace it. I don't think I'd want a sequel to this one.

2 PASTWATCH - One of my favorites. Would love a sequel. I think it's an absolute-must that whatever happens in the sequel has to acknowledge the changes to the timeline made in the original novel, and then has to undo them all.

3. ENDER - Card has reinvented this series several times before and so I'm always interested to see what he does with it next. With that said, if he chooses to end it with a single CotM sequel that ties up all the loose ends (including SotG), then I'm ok with that, too. His best work right now is in other worlds.

4. LOVELOCK - I think the ship has sailed. It's a shame b/c Lovelock is another of my favorites.

5. ALVIN MAKER - Every time I read a book in this universe, it seems that historical characters are popping up left and right with no regards for their actual birth dates from the "real" world. I've sort of lost interest in this one. Seems the story has no real place to go now. Just finish the Crystal City with a novella, put a bow on it, and call it a day.

Don't forget WOMEN OF GENESIS. I'm waiting for the final book in that series, too. & There's lots of interesting women in the Old Testament. It doesn't have to end with Genesis. Lots of material to keep going with...

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mr_porteiro_head
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quote:
Plus I'm not wild about dealing with the time-travel paradoxes in that way.
That's another reason why I loved it -- it made it so that there was no paradox that had to be dealt with. It's one of only a handful of time travel scenarios that actually made any kind of real sense to me. Plus, it didn't resort to multiple universes, which I have a personal dislike for.
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Lisa
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He's never going to finish Alvin Maker. Because he doesn't like the ending.
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Scott R
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quote:
Originally posted by Lisa:
He's never going to finish Alvin Maker. Because he doesn't like the ending.

What makes you say that?
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Kelly1101
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quote:
Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
quote:
Plus I'm not wild about dealing with the time-travel paradoxes in that way.
That's another reason why I loved it -- it made it so that there was no paradox that had to be dealt with. It's one of only a handful of time travel scenarios that actually made any kind of real sense to me. Plus, it didn't resort to multiple universes, which I have a personal dislike for.
If they had never been born, they could never go back and change the past to begin with. Paradox. If their parents never lived because the past had been changed, they could never be born.
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Geraine
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If you want more Pastwatch OSC wrote a short story called Atlantis that you can read.

http://hatrack.com/osc/stories/atlantis.shtml

Enjoy [Smile]

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Scott R
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I was really hoping Lisa would explain herself. Rats.
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Ace of Spades
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"Alvin Maker" is an allegorical retelling of the life of Joseph Smith, who in real life was brutally murdered.
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Scott R
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I know (though I wouldn't call it allegorical). But Lisa's statement goes beyond an evaluation of what the story is to what the author's inner thought processes are.

Or maybe she has evidence?

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Ace of Spades
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http://www.hatrack.com/cgi-bin/print_friendly.cgi?page=/research/interviews/interview.shtml
quote:
Since then I've done some explicitly Mormon-related things -- Homecoming being a retelling in sci-fi terms of the first part of the Book of Mormon, Folk of the Fringe being an extrapolation of Mormon pioneer culture into the future, and the Alvin Maker books drawing their basic structure from an allegorical version of the life of Joseph Smith.

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Scott R
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*I* wouldn't call it allegorical. [Smile]
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Jeff C.
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Does this mean Alvin will eventually embezzle money from the church he starts and then get sent to jail and shot?
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Geraine
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeff C.:
Does this mean Alvin will eventually embezzle money from the church he starts and then get sent to jail and shot?

Sigh...If you are going to start spouting anti-mormon rhetoric around, please make sure you research it before you do.
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Jeff C.
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quote:
Originally posted by Geraine:
quote:
Originally posted by Jeff C.:
Does this mean Alvin will eventually embezzle money from the church he starts and then get sent to jail and shot?

Sigh...If you are going to start spouting anti-mormon rhetoric around, please make sure you research it before you do.
Everything I said was true, except for the embezzlement. Apparently it was just a warrant against him for tax fraud, not embezzlement, so my mistake. Silly me. Look, if what I said offended you, I'm sorry, but you shouldn't take it too seriously. Every prophet in every religion screwed up from time to time. They're humans and they make mistakes, some of which are just silly. Joseph Smith made quite a few, just like Abraham and Moses. Marrying a bunch of different women and declaring tea to be evil are just a few of them. But again, I'm just kidding.


Anyway, I also said that because the way smith died doesn't seem like a plausible ending to the series. I doubt he will write it that way. Sure, Alvin might die, but to have him die in prison and to a mob would be a little depressing. Don't you think so?

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Stone_Wolf_
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With Alvin's powers the only real way for him to die is if he allows it, so basically a Aslan/Jesus story, which I really hope not, as I am not religious and would hope for a better ending then that.
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Jake
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Jeff, you'll probably have a better time here if you can get rid of the chip on your shoulder.
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Jeff C.
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quote:
Originally posted by Jake:
Jeff, you'll probably have a better time here if you can get rid of the chip on your shoulder.

Jake, I don't have a chip on my shoulder. What would that chip even symbolize in this situation? I was simply remarking that the circumstances revolving around the death of this historical figure would seem an unworthy conclusion to a series of books, if they were actually allegorical of his life. It just seems like a sad way to end it.

But saying all that is boring, so I did this in the form of a joke, which then was misinterpreted, and I apologized for that (twice, I believe). If my sarcasm came off as some kind of misunderstood anti-mormon rhetoric, then that's too bad because that's not how it was intended. I'm religious too, Jake, but I can laugh about how rediculous some stuff can be because I'm confident with what I believe. Smith wasn't a deity, so it's not fair to treat him like one. He was a human being. As I said before, people make mistakes. You have to learn to see the humor in that or you'll go through life mopey and quick to anger at the next sarcastic annonymous hooplah you come across on a message board making a joke about something equally unimportant.

Except next time it will be about cats. And I know you don't want that.

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Scott R
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeff C.:
quote:
Originally posted by Geraine:
quote:
Originally posted by Jeff C.:
Does this mean Alvin will eventually embezzle money from the church he starts and then get sent to jail and shot?

Sigh...If you are going to start spouting anti-mormon rhetoric around, please make sure you research it before you do.
Everything I said was true, except for the embezzlement. Apparently it was just a warrant against him for tax fraud, not embezzlement, so my mistake. Silly me. Look, if what I said offended you, I'm sorry, but you shouldn't take it too seriously. Every prophet in every religion screwed up from time to time. They're humans and they make mistakes, some of which are just silly. Joseph Smith made quite a few, just like Abraham and Moses. Marrying a bunch of different women and declaring tea to be evil are just a few of them. But again, I'm just kidding.


Anyway, I also said that because the way smith died doesn't seem like a plausible ending to the series. I doubt he will write it that way. Sure, Alvin might die, but to have him die in prison and to a mob would be a little depressing. Don't you think so?

Which part of this constitutes your apology?

...and I'm afraid your sense of humor eludes me.

Maybe if you explain how what you said was funny, I'll be able to join you in your laughter. As it is, the statement just strikes me as misinformed and a bit inflammatory.

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Stone_Wolf_
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Not to butt in on a private argument...but,

quote:
Which part of this constitutes your apology?
quote:
Look, if what I said offended you, I'm sorry...
Not the best apology I've ever heard, but it wasn't the worst offense either, now was it.
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Scott R
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quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
Not to butt in on a private argument...but,

quote:
Which part of this constitutes your apology?
quote:
Look, if what I said offended you, I'm sorry...
Not the best apology I've ever heard, but it wasn't the worst offense either, now was it.

His full statement was this:

"Look, if what I said offended you, I'm sorry, but you shouldn't take it too seriously. "

The full context works to undermine the idea that this is an apology.

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Jeff C.
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I disagree, Scott. The rest of what I said was a reassurance that backed up the fact that it was a joke. The "you shouldn't take it too seriously" signifies that the statement was a joke and (gasp) you shouldn't take it too seriously. If you couldn't understand that, then I don't know what to tell you. When you decide to nitpick an apology, you're just furthering the problem, so how about we just drop it and move on with our lives.

Unless, of course, you are actually some kind of sentient internet super-being and you reside solely within the confines of these boards, in which case I must say, it's very nice to meet you.

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Scott R
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Which part was the joke, and which part was your apology?
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Jeff C.
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quote:
Originally posted by Scott R:
Which part was the joke, and which part was your apology?

Do I really need to explain this, scott? Are you sure you're not just dragging it out at this point? Go back through and reread the posts.

I'm going to assume you're smart enough to answer your own questions without me having to hold your hand along the way.

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Kelly1101
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Yay, internet arguments.
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mr_porteiro_head
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quote:
Do I really need to explain this, scott?
There's no requirement that you do, but yeah, if you want it understood, you need to explain it. I went back and re-read your posts, and I don't know the answer to his question.

For example, what exactly were you apologizing for?

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Jeff C.
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quote:
Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
what exactly were you apologizing for?

That's a good question. I apparently got a fact wrong when I asked if Alvin would embezzle money and die in jail from a mob because I thought that was what happened to Joseph Smith. That was the initial joke. I apologized for it in the next post, explaining that if I did offend that person, I was sorry but they shouldn't take a joke too seriously. Jake and Scott apprently thought it wasn't good enough, and so here we are.
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Jake
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeff C.:
[Jake and Scott apprently thought it wasn't good enough, and so here we are. [/QB]

You misunderstand me entirely, just for the record. I'm not religious in the least, I wasn't offended by anything you said, and I don't need an apology. I do continue to think that you probably have a chip on your shoulder regarding Mormonism. Saying things about the founder of a faith that can reasonably be predicted to be offensive to members of that faith doesn't look like any less of a dig when you follow it up with a "just kidding". Given that a decent chunk of this board is Mormon, and given that its founder is as well, I think that you'll have a better time here if you stop making digs at their faith and then claiming that you were only kidding.

I don't think that you're here primarily to get a rise out of people. You seem like a decent guy who is interested in honest conversation with people, and I'm sincerely glad of that. Given that, I really do think that you'll have a better time here if you lay off the sort of posting you engaged in upstream a little bit in this thread.

[Edited to make a point clearer and remove an impolite bit of snark]

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richd
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Back to the topic a bit-

I have not read any Alvin books yet, but have been bothered by the knowledge that there is one more left unwritten. Does the series need a final book to tie things up? I am weary to start a series that will not be finished. These same concerns are making me hesitate to read the "A Song of Ice and Fire" series by George R. R. Martin.

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Kelly1101
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Well, OSC does have plans to finish it. You could always wait until the last one comes out, I guess.

I thought the most recent one ended in kind of a neat package-- it's not really a cliffhanger or anything-- but can definitely tell there is enough story for one more.

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Stone_Wolf_
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Agreed...the last Alvin book was pretty satisfyingly complete, and there is room for one more (heartrendingly sad, I bet) book.

You can definitely read the Alvin books, it's not like GRRM where it's one huge build up to a showdown.

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twheeler17
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I guess I've given up expecting it, but I'd sure love a sequel to "Lovelock". On the other hand, I don't care if OSC ever writes another book based on a Biblical character, especially a woman. I read "Sarah" from the Women of Genesis series and absolutely hated it. Up to that point, I would have said OSC wasn't capable of truly bad writing. I was wrong. He managed to make Abraham and Sarah both unlikeable in character and incomprehensible in their motivations and behavior. I'm a Jew. Abraham and Sarah were the first patriarch and matriarch of MY people. The Torah doesn't shrink from showing them as human beings, people of their time and place, and far from perfect, whereas OSC's Abraham and Sarah are cardboard cutout saints. In the Ender books, OSC displayed an amazing ability to get to the human core of some deeply flawed characters who were nevertheless trying to do the right thing in terrible circumstances. I don't know why he felt he had to abandon that critical approach just because he was writing about Biblical characters.
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rivka
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Shalom aleichem, twheeler17!

I have my own issues with the Biblical books, but I disagree with you on the quality of the writing -- of the ones I have read, anyway.

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twheeler17
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Hi, Rivka. I'm curious as to your issues with OSC's Biblical books. If you'd like to elaborate, I'd be glad to hear them. Perhaps the writing wasn't as bad as I felt it was, but it's hard for me not to blame the writing for the fact that I constantly wanted to reach through the page and slap Sarah upside the head. ;-)
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Geraine
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeff C.:
quote:
Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
what exactly were you apologizing for?

That's a good question. I apparently got a fact wrong when I asked if Alvin would embezzle money and die in jail from a mob because I thought that was what happened to Joseph Smith. That was the initial joke. I apologized for it in the next post, explaining that if I did offend that person, I was sorry but they shouldn't take a joke too seriously. Jake and Scott apprently thought it wasn't good enough, and so here we are.
Jeff, I want to make it clear that I was not offended by what you said, but I was frustrated by your comments. The information you wrote was not clear you were kidding, and to be honest it seems as though until I said something you believed it to be true. Your next post made it seem like you googled it and realized your mistake.

I don't think Joseph Smith was a perfect person, far from it. He made a lot of mistakes because as you said, he was only human. Please know however that there was a lot of things he was accused of that were blatently false, and even though they have been proven time and time again to be false some people still try to use these falsehoods to criticize him.

The LDS Church is pretty open about some of the mistakes Joseph Smith made, especially concerning the lost manuscript of the Book of Mormon. Had you made a joke about that, I probably wouldn't have said anything, because it is true!

If you wish to joke around by all means do, but please understand that it only helps to circulate the false information out there.

Oh, and only because I haven't put my two cents in on the topic, I wouldn't mind the last Alvin book, another Empire sequel, or another Pastwatch book. I already have my copy of "Ruin" pre-ordered on Amazon (Yep, its already up, shows a release date of March 2012!)

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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by twheeler17:
If you'd like to elaborate, I'd be glad to hear them.

Edit: Nevermind. Found one that has the gist: http://www.hatrack.com/cgi-bin/ubbmain/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=002307;p=1&r=nfx#000017
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twheeler17
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Thanks for the link, Rivka. Interesting discussion. My primary problem with the book isn't that it doesn't stick closely enough to the story as I understand it, but that the characters just don't come across as real human beings to me. Just as an example, in the book, Abraham and Sarah never seem to have any real spiritual struggles or doubts (or at least none that last more than a few minutes) and their relationship with God has no real intimacy or immediacy. In the Torah, by contrast, when Sarah overhears God telling Abraham that she will have a child, Sarah laughs and says (to paraphrase slightly), "What? Am I going to have pleasure with that old man?" But, when God reports this to Abraham, He tactfully rephrases what Sarah said, and has her attributing her disbelief to her own old age. The relationship between Abraham and God in this portrayal could hardly be any more intimate. Later on in the Torah, Abraham bargains with God about the fate of Sodom and Gomorrah. The Abraham of the Torah talks to God, argues with God, bargains with God; Card's Abraham just does what he's told. Another example is Sarah's relationship with Hagar. In the Torah, it's quite clear that Hagar is flaunting her position as the mother of Abraham's first-born son and Sarah is wildly jealous (even though the situation was of her own making), thus putting Abraham in a big relationship bind. We can easily understand Sarah's demand that Abraham evict Hagar and Ishmael from the camp and Abraham's rather craven submission to this demand, but this behavior is not approved or excused. God Himself has to remedy the situation by speaking directly to Hagar (which he never does to Sarah) to tell her that her son, too, will be the father of many nations. In short, these are real people, with real strengths and weaknesses, acting in real comprehensible human ways. That's what's missing from Card's characterizations. I know Card is writing fictional portrayals, but if you're going to fictionalize Biblical characters, you might as well make them recognizably human. I don't entirely agree with Anita Diamant's portrayal of Isaac's family in The Red Tent, but there's no question that her characters act like real people.
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rivka
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It's clear you're going by the text alone (for example, Sarah most certainly did speak to God directly, although the text does not explicitly say so, the Gemara does), which is a view I find baffling for someone from a Jewish tradition.

And it has been long enough since I read OSC's Sarah that I don't recall my feelings about the characterizations. So I can't agree or disagree -- I just don't recall.

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schersimon
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I think that we are getting away from the important subject here. Older OSC books that we NEED sequels too. I think that Worthing, Ender, Alvin Maker, and Lovelock are in good places and leave me satisfied. I would however like to read a sequel to Pastwatch, as I enjoyed the book, and he has a lot of cool places to take that book, thought the story does not necessarily need more. What does NEED more is Empire! I love it, It's like ender but with normal, non super genius people. I want to know what happens next! That is a story that has been left in a bad/unfinished place. I think that that is the only one that he has kind of left [Frown] , the wrest are in a good place to either take up or not. I am really enjoying his new stuff. I cannot wait for the next Pathfinder and MIthermage books! they are promising to be kick butt series. PLEASE MR. CARD write faster! Fortunately I have Elizabeth Moon and Kevin J Anderson, and now Lev Grossman to tide me over until I can get another Card fix.
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FoolishTook
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I just loaned my brother Lovelock to read. When he finished it and discovered there was no sequel--and may never be--he was angry with me for recommending it to him.

I did try to warn him ahead of time, but ouch...

Would love a sequel to Lovelock and another Women of Genesis book. [Smile]

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