posted
My wife and I like to read together at night. But after a few scenes that didn't sit well with her, OSC is off the table.
I also don't like some of the more graphic scenes, such as: -child/underage rape, any graphic rape scenes -child abuse -certain violent scenes
I get that bad guys need to be bad, and that nothing is off the table for them. I guess my objection is that I don't want that much detail. There is usually one or two graphic scene like this in every novel.
The end result is that I think there are probably a fair number of readers, including potential crossover readers from OSC religious/bible-based fiction that will not be fans of other novels b/c of one or two graphic scenes in each book.
It's also the reason I will probably not introduce these stories to my children until they are quite a bit older. I think this is a shame because I feel that OSC novels have the potential to help teenagers increase their emotional intelligence and see things from another point of view.
OSC novels are a love of mine, and I have a hard time putting them down once I start. So it's a little sad I feel like I can't share them with my family, at least for now. Posts: 2 | Registered: Nov 2011
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posted
Could be Hart's Hope. OSC faces the same conundrum of all storytellers, how much of life must he tell to still get across his story? Life includes these things, but certainly it's possible to tell certain stories without including any. He makes a choice and we the audience live with it, as does he. For my part I can't think of a single graphic scene in an OSC story that wasn't in some way crucial to the story or the characters but that's clearly a personal call. I'm not sure if you're asking OSC to change or just commenting on the way things are. If it's the first I guess there's nothing wrong with feedback, but to change he'd have to either tell stories that don't require any of the described scenes, or tell stories badly. He's obviously not going to do the latter and it's almost as unlikely he'd limit his output in such a way. Perhaps you're looking for an idea for some of his stories that don't contain "graphic"* sex or violence?
*I add quotes not to belittle your opinion, but because compared to most authors I read, OSC's graphic scenes are not exactly pushing any envelopes
posted
Well, there was that unnecessarily descriptive bathroom scene in Magic Street. That kind of wasn't needed. OSC isn't as bad as Stephen King when it comes to violence though.
What scenes are you talking about?
I hate bad guys being TOO bad... It is very boring.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Virtually every OSC work seems to feature child abuse of some form or another, sometimes sexual, sometimes emotional or physical: Harts Hope, Enders Game, War of Gifts, Worthing Saga (multiple instances), Speaker, Lost Boys, to name some off the top of my head. Child sexual abuse figures prominently in Osc's repertoire of characterization. So much so that he *added* some to his version of Hamlet.
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posted
Scenes that are at the top of the list: -Folk of the Fringe: a very long story of a couple toddlers that are locked in a closet for years by their mom so that she can get more peace and quiet, how the kids are pale, not allowed to have clothes, and go a little crazy. -Alvin Maker series: very long drawn out description of a man that rapes his slaves and how his wife has an affair with a slave also to get back at him, before he kills the slave and his wife.
Thanks for the link to the Nauvoo article, it does shed some more light on the reasoning. I get it, bad guys need to be bad, and they do bad things. But it almost seems to be an obligatory thing we see in every story, like he is going for some quota.
The core reason I wrote the post is probably this- I wish OSC wouldn't put in disturbing stuff in his stories unless it was really necessary. Ender having to kill two bullies, this makes sense. It's essential to show how far the adults are going and that they don't want Ender to have any "crutch" to fall back on- it's all up to him.
But if it's a sideline or not necessary to the story, it feels like an out of place sex scene in a movie- the kind designed to push the rating up to an R, or to give the audience a little extra sex because they expect it. I just find myself asking- why is this in there? Because the author likes writing it? Or because he thinks his audience likes reading it?
Are there fans that are going to finish a book and say- hey, where was the rape or child abuse scene in here?
Ultimately it's probably a sign that I have different thresholds of what I want to see/read than the author, and it's silly to argue why he shouldn't put in whatever scene he wants to anything he writes, but as OSC novels are important to me, I can't help but explore the questions more.
Posts: 2 | Registered: Nov 2011
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posted
Hmm. Yeah. I read a couple of Stephen King books lately and he tends to have gruesome violence. Now, as much as OSC tends to frustrate me these days, I do think most of the time there is a point to the violent and intense scenes, unlike with a lot of other writers. He does seem to have a clear reason to alarm you with stuff like the toddlers in Folk of the Fridge or Ender fighting the bullies. I must say though that what happened to that poor fellow in Songmaster was so uncalled for though. That was just mean. That poor guy. And Lost Boy, I can't ever read that again because it makes me weep like a baby and I don't even have kids yet.
But yeah, I'm not sure he does the whole violence for the sake of violence thing that much. The LECTURING on the other hand is another matter. To be honest I'd really rather read sex scenes than violence scenes. Sex is at least nice and natural if it's not rape or abuse. But violence though. I don't always think we need to have so much detail.
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posted
I've had to think about this in my own writing. I've written a scene or two and gone 'eww.' Not the same subject matter, but the idea is the same.
I ask myself, why should this scene be included? And it is a personal answer, but one reason that comes to mind is yes its life, but more importantly. What if this story CANNOT be told? I'm a believer in Christ, and I think to myself, what does it say for myself if I say "this story should never be told even if it's true."
Suppose a woman has been raped, and the were to tell her "shush, no one needs to hear that...or if you must say something put it in the PG format." My question would be, has her story ever been heard? Has she ever been heard? And what does it say that she never hears it? That no one can understand. That no one wants to understand. Doesn't it say that she herself should be ashamed? And why? What wrong did she do?
By extension, does it suggest to her that perhaps God himself didn't see it?
To me then, for that reason, as a principle a story that is meant to be true, must tell it truly so that the reader understands what that person may have gone through.
Of course, that's a personal question. We have to decide, is this the story that does need to be truly told? Or is it just a 'side bar' that tells nothing true and just pops in because of the writers personal darkness?
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posted
I find this strange. I really don't recall any "scenes" in OSC's works that I've considered unnecessarily graphic - though I can't say I even remember a bathroom scene in Magic Street (one of the few OSC books I've only read once). I actually like the fact that OSC doesn't ignore the "human" element of stories and actually considers somewhat practical implications like where in the work people use the restroom or how on earth they manage to live in certain elements of clothing, but I've never found any of his scenes, as printed on paper, to be all that graphic. In fact, I think what make much of his work so powerful is the ability to invoke the emotions of the reader to provide most of the background detail. The most "graphic" I ever remember him being was actually in the Enchantment love scene.
On the other hand, much of what OSC writes is profoundly disturbing. I suppose that's part of what makes it great, but it does make me wonder about him sometimes. I think he's fairly restrained in most of his novels (Hart's Hope excepted) compared to his short stories. The first short story book I read by him gave me nightmares!
Posts: 1321 | Registered: Jun 2006
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I don't really have a negative view on any of it. It's reality. In the real world, people do these crazy things, and it happens a lot. Of course, the difference here is that he's writing about it, so it's not real. But, fiction is supposed to be false reality, and in order for that to be true, you can't sugarcoat your work. Sometimes these details are necessary, not because the story had to have them happened right at that moment, but because the world the author has built is a real one, and in any real world, twisted things happen to children.
Posts: 1324 | Registered: Feb 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Scott R: What child abuse took place in Speaker for the Dead?
Seriously? Marcou beats his wife and eldest son in the presence of the younger siblings, repeatedly, until he dies a terrible death. Ella, Oleado, and Grego are profoundly traumatized by these experiences
Even if you don't count Miro being beaten mercilessly, this is an important trauma that defines these characters. It easily qualifies as emotional abuse and neglect. And Novinha is an emotional neglectful mother, largely due to her own victim hood, just as the community neglects and reviles the whole family, despite their being mostly innocent you children who need help, and are not offered any.
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quote:Originally posted by Scott R: What child abuse took place in Speaker for the Dead?
Seriously? Marcou beats his wife and eldest son in the presence of the younger siblings, repeatedly, until he dies a terrible death. Ella, Oleado, and Grego are profoundly traumatized by these experiences
Even if you don't count Miro being beaten mercilessly, this is an important trauma that defines these characters. It easily qualifies as emotional abuse and neglect. And Novinha is an emotional neglectful mother, largely due to her own victim hood, just as the community neglects and reviles the whole family, despite their being mostly innocent you children who need help, and are not offered any.
Stupid Valentine thinking it was good to have that jerk in their life. Ugh. I remember how annoyed when I noticed that line. I was like... WAIT A SECOND!
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posted
I don't remember that; I thought I recalled Novinha's "deal" with Marcao being that he could treat her however he wanted, but he wasn't allowed to lay a finger on the kids.
It's possible I've forgotten certain elements; it's been a while since I've read 'Speaker.'
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Scott R: I don't remember that; I thought I recalled Novinha's "deal" with Marcao being that he could treat her however he wanted, but he wasn't allowed to lay a finger on the kids.
It's possible I've forgotten certain elements; it's been a while since I've read 'Speaker.'
I remember it that way, too.
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quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: Child sexual abuse figures prominently in Osc's repertoire of characterization.
Utter and complete nonsense. Unless by "figures prominently" you mean "is an itty bitty part of". A claim of this sort can only be made when it is backed by a list of books and page numbers.
And anyone who refuses to read, for example, the Alvin Maker series because of a short bit at the start of Prentice Alvin which is not explicit and clearly portrays evil as EVIL that person is making a huge mistake. That's like saying you don't want to read the newspaper because you might come across a one column story about someone doing something bad.
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As we see from Speaker, it was Marcao who was abused by the entire world from an early age and by his wife each time she became pregnant by another man. All of his children suffered but nobody's family is perfect and we see strong evidence in SFTD, Xenocide, and COTM that they come out of the whole mess in pretty decent shape. Not perfect but not fatally flawed or "profoundly traumatized".
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posted
I Am not sure that is actually the case considering how messed up the whole family was when Ender came along. The youngest child tried to stab him, for ome thing.
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I'm not sure that I can see my way to categorizing Novinha's infidelity as "abuse".
Orincoro is right, I think, that Novinha was a neglectful parent, and that Marcao was emotionally and verbally abusive; however, if I recall correctly, that's given to us as part of backstory, NOT as an active part of the narrative. That is, the abuse is not depicted; circling back to the original poster's point, it seems that the depiction of child abuse is what is objectionable.
I agree with jsclark:
quote:[authors] have to decide, is this the story that does need to be truly told? Or is it just a 'side bar' that tells nothing true and just pops in because of the writers personal darkness?
It's a balancing act between depicting something that will be abhorrent and drive the reader away, or not writing enough emotional strength into the scene and having it come off weak or (worse) false. Each writer and reader has to choose what they can stomach.
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I think that we have at least some obligation to read or otherwise get the news to be informed citizens. I don't think that we have an equivalent obligation to read fiction that we don't enjoy.
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posted
The news isn't often graphic. Although terrible things are reported in the news, the words chosen to describe the scene or situation are generally not as emotionally evocative as those used in fiction.
There are different expectations when one is reading fiction and when one is reading the paper.
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quote: And anyone who refuses to read, for example, the Alvin Maker series because of a short bit at the start of Prentice Alvin which is not explicit and clearly portrays evil as EVIL that person is making a huge mistake. That's like saying you don't want to read the newspaper because you might come across a one column story about someone doing something bad.
My point was that you couldn't really compare reading unpleasant things as a (possible) duty and reading unpleasant things when it is supposed to be fun.
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posted
Sometimes the news is graphic. I don't think I'd let my future kids watch it. I was once traumatized by a news story involving a man that was hung and they had to SHOW IT.
Also, I think I hate the man Novinha was skanking around with even more because I think he was a wuss. There's no way you can make that many babies with a woman and not NOTICE the scars and stuff!
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posted
It is certainly not a duty of any sort to read newspapers. The comparison is between deciding not to read the entire newspaper because you might run into a single objectionable column vs deciding not to read any OSC books because you might run into a description of an evil person doing something evil. Totally apt comparison.
Reading fiction is not just about having fun. At least not OSC's fiction. It's about life learning - which is definitely not always fun. It is clearly a choice but so is reading the paper. Nobody is forcing you to do either. But avoiding the benefits of either reading novels or newspapers because you are afraid of a tiny bit that might be inside them is not sensible. It is living in fear and the result is that you miss out on a lot of wonderful and amazing things. You can always skip the negative newspaper column or the tiny bit of non-graphic depictions of evil in OSC's books.
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It is important to know what is going on in the world whether one gets that from newspapers or from other source. I am sure that plenty of people manage their "life learning" just fine without the benefit of any particular author.
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posted
I think the point JohnHansen is trying to make isn't as much about life learning as it is about the purpose of story.
Life is chaotic and senseless. Story collects all that chaos and senselessness and shapes it into something. This is why I have no problem with stories that are explicit, as long as they are driving towards a purpose.
Posts: 407 | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
I am not arguing about whether explicit descriptions are necessary for any particular story or whether they are good story telling. I am just saying that, if you read for pleasure, there is no obligation to read things that you don't like. Not choosing any particular story, style, or author is hardly the same as shutting one's self off from the world for fear of having to deal with real unpleasantness.
For example, Breaking Bad is, by all accounts, really amazing story telling and really well done. Not my cup of tea, though, and that is fine. Nor would I insist that someone bothered by graphic violence or language watch Deadwood even though it was amazing.
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