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» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Discussions About Orson Scott Card » Shadows in Flight - Discussion w/ *SPOILERS* (Page 2)

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Author Topic: Shadows in Flight - Discussion w/ *SPOILERS*
Sean Monahan
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I was very much delighted with this book. Thank you Mr. Card, please keep them coming.
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fieryspirit
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It's not worth anything sorry Steve. Why you feel the need to defend him makes me suspicious. I don't keep up with "announcements".
Did he announce it was going to be crap? No? and Novella? -No. He said it was going to be "something new" - Turns out it's just a b.s money grab. This isn't even a novella. There was no story. what's the story? A dad and his 3 kids go on a trip, they make friends, then their dad dies. GMAFB.

He basically duped his audience. By switching the name, and extending the small section of the original novel, he was able to get a few more bucks for part of the original "Flights" story he didn't want to cram into the larger "Flights" story, which would have been the "end" of the series, without getting paid more for the larger work. Or he's just cutting parts of his original story into little chunks, just so he can put out "novellas" and charge $12-20 a pop for what amount to chapters that are just extended. Selling them in HC, SC, Audio-book, Abridged, Enhanced, Ebook, Kindle, Nook, etc... versions.

This is how he makes money. You bet your but he's milking it for all it's worth like all career writers today who just want to make a buck instead of writing/ finishing/ giving the fans what they want. Do you think OSC cares weather his new book gets awards? Seems to me he just cares about the paycheck. Diluting his ender-verse into a bunch of tween-novellas. No thanks, Captain America, and No Thanks You Orson.

When Harry Potter came out my friends and i laughed at it because it was such a kiddy series; but one thing i can give Rowlings credit for is keeping the series consistent. At this point it seems Potter is more Adult fiction than Enderverse - that's a crime.

Note 4/30/12 - i still defend this review. I'm happy OSC is making money, and i certainly do not want to insult one of my favorite authors; but my experience with this "experiment" as he's called it made me upset. My visceral experience while reading and finishing this "novella" is recorded in this forum. Foul language and all. As a fan i do do feel he's taken advantage of his audience with this book. Sorry, but that is true. I wouldn't be so upset if it was any other author; and this forum post is my first foray in Hatrack because i felt so betrayed. Ender is very important to me, and OSC is very important to me as a father figure in my developmental experience, not only literarily but philosophically. its been 20 years since i first read ender's game as a kid - When my family wanted to know about me - i told them to read Ender's Game, not because i am Ender, but because i AM Ender - you know what i mean. It's not Ender's Games writing which makes it great its the depth of understanding - it's the depth of speaking to a kid generations removed and inspiring them to be better, that is the genius of Ender. that is the Genius behind most of OSC's works - touching a piece of our souls.

[ April 30, 2012, 05:40 AM: Message edited by: fieryspirit ]

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fieryspirit
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quote:
Originally posted by Sean Monahan:
I was very much delighted with this book. Thank you Mr. Card, please keep them coming.

I want him to keep them coming too but the great and wonderful Oz, i mean Card, has a responsibility to his fans - the people who supported his works and stories for all these years. It's like if Tolkien wrote the Return of the King as a pop-up book for ages 2-4 just because he felt like it, or because his publishers thought he'd make more money from it - Screw that. Give me the Return of the King, not "Beanie Babies in Space".
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Sean Monahan
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Apropos to nothing, who is in charge of the traditional Hatrack welcome?
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SteveRogers
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quote:
Originally posted by fieryspirit:
There was no story. what's the story? A dad and his 3 kids go on a trip, they make friends, then their dad dies.

Well, yeah. That's a story. That's a plot. Even if you didn't like it. And your description is a grossly simplified summary of what happens in the book, so I'm finding it hard to believe you actually read the whole thing (short as it may have been). The content in the story contributes a number of new elements to the story of the series as a whole. And will allow the next novel to be a more cohesive story in itself without having to have this whole chunk at the beginning and then suddenly switch narratives entirely during the book.

And besides, this wasn't supposed to be a money grab; they were trying something new with the publication by releasing it also as a special edition ebook with additional content and illustrations.

He announced it would be shorter. Anyone who would read the book had the opportunity to learn that and choose whether or not to spend the money on it, so it's definitely not the author or publisher's fault that the story wasn't exactly what YOU wanted.

Edit:

Just because you are upset because you didn't keep up with the official announcements regarding the book doesn't mean anyone was trying to "dupe" somebody. It just indicates a gap in knowledge on your part regarding the status of the book you seem so angry about.

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Jeorge
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quote:
Originally posted by Sean Monahan:
Apropos to nothing, who is in charge of the traditional Hatrack welcome?

[Laugh]
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fieryspirit
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^ Steve Rogers has to be working for someone here. I have every right to my opinion(it is the general consensus, btw. A of a lot of readers were not happy with it). I did read the book - twice. Then i returned it for a refund. It's a shitty book - OSC needs to know that. It's like Al Pacino phoning in a role - crap is crap. I'm glad it came out, and now i'm glad it's gone from my shelf.
OSC needs honest critics, not jerk-offs who just jerk him off all the time. Noone is a 100% 100% of the time - we only hope for more than 50% good - but OSC is pushing it.

Edit - "jerk-offs" are not meant to be an attack on anyone here in this forum, or fans of this book, or his other enderverse short stories. Please forgive me that it seemed like i was addressing anyone specific. The term was used not as an insult(although it is an insult), but as a off the cuff reference to cult like fans of any celebrity. My intention is not to insult, forgive me if my attempt at crass humor was out of line.

[ April 30, 2012, 05:20 AM: Message edited by: fieryspirit ]

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SteveRogers
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I don't work for anyone here. I was just pointing out that a lot of your complaints about the book were based on claims which are clearly false and shaded by emotion more than fact. Especially considering some of your posts were coming very close to personally attacking the author, who is, after all, just another person like any of us and as such has no obligation to anyone but himself to write anything.

Writing is the career choice he made because, presumably, it's something he loves doing. Most of us on this site were brought here because we love his books. No one is forcing us to read or purchase his books, and the author has no contractual agreement with his readers to write what we want. He's generous enough to write what he cares about and share it with us.

You felt the book was poorly written and so did some others. Some felt the book was poorly written but still enjoyed the opportunity to share in further stories in a series which is important to many of us. Many of us, however, did not think the book was poorly written and also took the time to familiarize ourselves with the nature of the book and the publication strategy before taking to a website owned by the author to make false claims about the book.

I'm all for discussion and honest reviews, and I certainly have no issue with your opinion. But I do have an issue when it comes down to accusing someone of being essentially a charlatan trying to pump fans for money and comments which personally attack the author (when it's a matter of missing background knowledge on your part), and that's why I sought to point out some of the things I did.

Being rude is never cool regardless of what one's opinion is. I don't have to work for the site to point out false claims and try to subtly suggest civility.

Edit:

If it makes any difference, I'm taking you to task for the combative tone, false accusations insulting the character and motives of the author, and false claims in your posts, not for your negative experience with the book. Everyone is more than welcome to an opinion of a work; there's no law saying you have to enjoy it.

[ April 29, 2012, 08:26 PM: Message edited by: SteveRogers ]

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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by fieryspirit:
(it is the general consensus, btw. A of a lot of readers were not happy with it

Where is this consensus occurring? Somewhere that doesn't have access to the pre-release announcements, I gather . . .
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SteveRogers
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Highly publicized posts on forums made by new members who stayed only to complain and negative reviews on the internet a consensus do not make.
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fieryspirit
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Fact - writers write, readers read. That is the contract. If the Reader is unhappy with an authors work, they return the said work, author goes broke. Life goes on.

I don't go to my book store and pick a title to read based on familiarizing myself with the press release. If that is your reading strategy good for you. Combative - hell yes.

He has been a charlatan to some of his fans for a awhile. consensus - read a review from the hundreds of online review sources.

I have been a Fan of the Ender's Series and OSC for 20 years, but not his harlequin romance novels. Like i've mentioned - I and a lot of other people didn't get into Enderverse for these stupid little stories for kids. You want beanie babies in space - good for you.

There are 4 types of stories in the Enderverse - The award winning novels(nergasm), The main series novels, The serial/sequel novels, and then the filler garbage which is essentially OSC's answer to the hardy boys - Young Adult fiction.
I know some of you love it - but i'm not a young adult, and NEVER liked YA fiction. Give me the hard fiction, Hesse, Dostoyevsky, Azimermov, etc.. not Stratemeyer (gag on a dull object).

I can easily compare the genius behind the original 3 books(i include "Children" as a part of Xenocide) to 1984, Brother's Karamazov, War and Peace, Foundation Saga, etc... Solid work. The rest of the Ender series... not so much.

You like the Young Adult short story fictions, good for you - but changing the genre of a series mid series is stupid. Having 2 or 3 sub genres is wonderful, but strange and confusing.

Consensus? let's get a quick consensus shall we.
I'd bet my life that everyone who has ever read Ender's Game through Children of the Mind, 100% love those books more than Shadows in Flight. I bet it's a 100% to 0% in favor of any of those books to Shadow's in Flight.

I'd further posit that a majority % of people would love the Shadow series books, and the Prequel books, over Shadow's in Flight. I'll say 70% to 30% in favor of the Shadow and Prequel books to Shadow's in flight.

And then you get into the grey goo, the who cares group of stories - Hardy boys in space stories. You can have that group, i'll hold onto my original group.

Thanks so much Mr press release, but i'll stick to my own reading strategy; you have fun with those kiddy books.

note - again, just crass sarcastic humor. No intention to actually insult, just my awkward humor and observations.

[ April 30, 2012, 05:45 AM: Message edited by: fieryspirit ]

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SteveRogers
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If you didn't do the research prior to getting the book, it seems kinda silly to go on the forum where the announcements were made to post false claims about the author and the book.

Online reviews hardly constitute a consensus. For every negative review, there's a positive review. And that doesn't account for the people who purchase a book and don't post a review.

Orson Scott Card hasn't written any harlequin romance novels.

Short stories aren't for "little kids." Some of the greatest contributions to literature are in the short form. And the newest additions to the universe certainly aren't young adult, and it's insulting to all of his other readers to suggest we're somehow less valid than you because you simply haven't enjoyed them. And the genre of the novels definitely hasn't changed either.

Also, you spelled Asimov incorrectly.

Edit:

Heh. The search function on this very site would easily show other members of this site have had negative views of some of his books. There's no cult of Card.

As I've said, I'm not saying you can't have a negative opinion. Just questioning the tone and content with which you're making your complaints.

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rivka
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There are far better places to look for book reviews than Amazon. Then again, I have trouble taking seriously anyone who feels the need to lash out at anyone who disagrees with them.

For the record, I have not read Flight yet. I find your general attitude reprehensible, though. Not to mention childish.

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SteveRogers
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No one is saying you should have a positive or negative opinion. There are just better, more civil ways to express it.

[ April 30, 2012, 12:27 AM: Message edited by: SteveRogers ]

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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by SteveRogers:
Also, you spelled Asimov incorrectly.

That's the least of his spelling and grammar/usage issues. But I guess that's because he's a reader, not a writer.
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SteveRogers
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I just found that example to be most relevant provided the idea behind the statement in which the mistake was made.

Edit:

It should also be noted the internet could provide ample negative reader reviews of Ender's Game, Speaker for the Dead, Xenocide, and Children of the Mind as well on which one could claim there to be a consensus.

[ April 30, 2012, 12:33 AM: Message edited by: SteveRogers ]

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fieryspirit
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I think SteveRogers just wants to have the last word, right Mike? [Smile]

Amazon is one place with reviews. There are others obviously.

I'm not here to be civil. This is a forum for discussion. I can care less about my grammar or spelling - writing is not my profession and i'd say most people can give a shit about grammar and spelling on forums; but then again i just found this forum 2/3 days ago, so maybe this is the Utopian paradise of Forums. Are you the forum Nazi? Am i going to be called a "troll", or whatever, for not liking OSC's short stories? Did i make a beanie baby cry? If i'm not mistaken there is a send email icon above each user's name, which if it mattered, could easily be used to educate me on my spelling and grammatical errors outside an open forum or directly insulting me, my spelling and grammar, or my opinions, Ms. Ucla Alumn and you Mr. Rocking for Jesus. Immature - sure maybe i am. Reprehensible comments - no just stating my dislike for Card's Enderverse short stories; you haven't even read the book yet ms. UCLA, so what is your opinion based on.

Great short stories in literature - absolutely there are; but this and his other short stories in the Enderverse are not one of those. Search for negative comments - why? I love Cards writing; he's still one of my favorite Authors (of novels though).

Picked up "Flight", shared my experience of reading it - done.

You want to be positive, let's be positive - I can't wait to read a full Novel about Jane, Peter and Lusftansa (I spelled that wrong on purpose just for you, immature - ya, fun - ya). Loved OSC's message on fatherhood and the scene of Bean's passing. I would have liked a deeper more elaborated story, which would have gotten me much more emotionally involved similar to my emotional arch during Ender's passing in Children, but c'est la vie, the ink is dry on the paper. I can only hope and petition Card's future ventures into this universe to have more Gravitas.

Having a back and forth petty baby spat with people i don't know, isn't my idea of a party. Peace to you all, hopefully the prequel Earth Unaware will be a full novel (i'm not going to check the press release to see if it is). I certainly am not going to waste my money and time with it if it isn't.
Good night.

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SteveRogers
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A forum for discussion doesn't mean it's a forum for incivility. When members sign up, there's a user agreement which we all agree upon as well as the assumed social contract which dictates respect towards one another rather than resulting to name calling.

Also, how do you know whether to spend your money on the next book if you don't research it? Genuine question.

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fieryspirit
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Genuine answer - If it's an Orson Scott Card novel, it'll be good if not great.

note - 4/30/12 - maybe i have to explain my experience with Ender/ reading. I'm not of the internet generation. I didn't use a computer until i was 24, I'm 36 now.
French 5/6 class in my sophomore year in high school - decided to ditch. Didn't want to meet my stoner friends for their acid or weed trips, girlfriend had just moved to San Francisco, father at home was an abusive ocd dick, felt lonely decided to waste time away from the security guards in the school library for that period(1 hour); i was probably 15 or 16. Came up to those spinning book sections(don't know another way to describe them), Ender's game's cover jumped out to me. (BTW - the deepest reading i had done before for pleasure was a choose you own adventure book. Teachers tried shoving great lit into my head but i was never happy with it) . The cover illustration jumped out to me(i'm a professional illustrator/ designer/ artist now partially because of my experience with the cover of Ender's Game). I turned the book and read the synopsis, loving Sci-fi and liking the plot point - I stole it. I put it into my backpack, walked out of the library and started reading in my high school quad. Finished it in 2 days. For a non-reader; i was inspired. I ditched my french class again and returned the book to the spinning wheel for someone else to find, and hopefully enjoy. My reading appetite was wetted, and hungry, not satiated, and still hasn't. A year later, french 5/6 tutor - i decided to ditch class again - went to the school library again wishing for the same magic of a year before. guess what i found - Speaker for the dead......i stole it again and I devoured that book; and kept it ( i later gave it to a girlfriend who still has it but won't return it to me, but thats how great speaker was). Senior year in high school(i suffer from a medical condition called FMF) was home sick (it basically makes me bed ridden a few times a year), my mom gave me the best present i've ever received - XENOCIDE. I read that in my first sitting, sick and all; i could hardly breath but i didn't want to let the book down. years later, i was covering for my sister at her job while she was doing a mission in Armenia, the job was next to a book store, i walked in and guess what i saw - Children! I probably came in my pants. The whole day at her job i read, and reread. The boss wasn't happy, but the work was done.
Years later- i have many siblings and friends and have recommended OSC to so many people who have recommended it then to others its laughable. I can directly link at least 70+ people (i know them all by name) who love Ender and Card's other novels just because i decided to ditch french class that one day - it's awesome. I know my life has directly been influenced by Ender's Game and at least some of those 70+ peoples lives as well - just because i decided to ditch french class that one fine day.
Now i use a computer every moment of my woken life - i'm a designer (a good one too), but one thing i won't tarnish is my experience in the Enderverse - the great surprises are too heavy a joy in my heart; the travesties a terrible pain. I'll probably be dead in 5-10 years because of my FMF, so this series is very special to me. I hope that explains some things.

[ April 30, 2012, 07:24 AM: Message edited by: fieryspirit ]

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SteveRogers
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That seems contrary to your previous statements regarding a feeling of decrease in general quality over the course of the series which has allegedly changed genre and been aimed more towards a young adult audience.

Edit:

Which isn't meant as an insult or the like. Just trying to get a grasp on your feelings about the series because they seem a little scattered throughout your previous posts.

Additional edit:

What were your thoughts on the novella A War of Gifts which was released to positive professional reviews?

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fieryspirit
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I love the main series. If it wasn't for Ender's Game i wouldn't have become an avid reader.

I like about 90%(random figure) of Card's books. He's had a few stinkers/ let downs, but the others make up for it, and i try to read all of them - especially his sci-fi.

I don't like the shorts; i've always been let down at the depth of the writing, story, and character developments. Which is why i call them YA books (maybe too harshly, forgive me for that).

A War of Gifts - i don't remember, i'll re-read it now, and get back to you in 2/3 hours. It's a short of his so i probably didn't like it.

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SteveRogers
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Have you read from the more recent series which he's begun? I found Pathfinder and The Lost Gate to both be high quality starts to new series.
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fieryspirit
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I'll check them out, thank you for the recommendations.

I'm reading(listening) to War of Gifts right now, i haven't read it before.

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fieryspirit
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What other good short fiction would you recommend?

Fahrenheit 451, Siddhartha, The Time Machine, The Alchemist, The Prophet, Animal Farm, Of Mice and Men, Camus' The Stranger, Saroyan's My name is Aram and his The Human Comedy, Great Gatsby, Slaughterhouse-Five, are some favorites and great ones off the top of my head, highly recommended by me, under 200 pg books, just amazing. I remember the first time reading every one of these short novels and jaw was on the floor, the best of the best. I know there's more - either i haven't read them or i don't remember off the top of my head.

Please share some of your fav's Captian, and anyone else who might happen along onto this message. Thanks.

Note - proud owner of first editions of the Ender's Game analog magazine, Ender's Game, Speaker of the Dead, and Children of the Mind. Ender's Game - signed by OSC, something along the lines of, "to the future stories we'll share together"(in storage, so can't see for sure) - freaking awesome. Personal prized collection, which i've read so many times, the dust jackets are falling off.

[ April 30, 2012, 07:40 AM: Message edited by: fieryspirit ]

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SteveRogers
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Based on what you've said, I feel like your primary issue with the shorter works in the Ender series is that they don't stand alone. Would I be correct in boiling it down to that level?

I think that's the fundamental issue with the shorter works recently written in the series; they aren't meant to stand alone. You complained about a lack of character development, but these stories are, by their very nature, character growth. They're meant to expand on characters the readers have already met throughout their experiences with the Ender universe.

That's why I referred to them as supplemental. They're well written forays into the backstory or continuing adventures of various characters, but they're meant to be smaller pieces in a bigger puzzle.

Shadows in Flight, Ender In Exile, "Mazer In Prison," "Investment Counselor," "The Polish Boy," "Teacher's Pest," "Pretty Boy," and "Cheater" are all stories set in the same universe which further illuminate the backgrounds and motivations of characters the reader has already met. I think, in a lot of ways, they serve to further enrich the narrative of the main series upon further reading. Especially provided the important role many of the characters play in the main series.

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JoeAlvord
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I once read a review of Tony Hillerman's last novel (After a gap of several years from the previous one). The reviewer said that it wasn't his best, but it was so nice to meet his old friends again after all those years.
I feel the same way about Shadows in Flight. It isn't Card's best, but I get to see my friends again. Card is a fast writer, at least compared to most good authors, but I read WAY faster than he writes and I find myself feeling deprived waiting for the next installment.

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Synesthesia
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i kind of feel that the books have gone down in quality having read the whole series, but after Ender in Exile I give up. I tried to start Shadows in Flight, but the talk of incest revolted me.

I also read Pathfinder recently and it just...is not... good.
I seriously wish he would have stopped with the original Ender because the series, in my opinion, just kept getting worse and worse. There was less of what attracted me to the story and more of what I hated; nagging.
Endless NAGGING!
The characters seemed to exist to be conquered by OSC and used to lecture the audience about marriage and babies. I can't be the only one who has noticed this. It's painful! When Ender in Exile was 90% of this, I thought, I can't take it anymore. He ruined his own story. He LUCASED it.
There are details you just don't need to know in a story. It was enough to know Peter became hegemon. We didn't need to see him as a whiny dependent teen. It wasn't interesting to me. All those parts about Petra, Bean and babies, Im not against having babies, but they KNEW the person they went to couldn't be trusted and went to them anyway?
I'm sorry, I have to give up for my sanity. It's just not good anymore. I re-read Seventh Son and it's FANTASTIC but Pathfinder and Ender in Exile was painful and it's squicky for 6 year olds to talk about mating with their siblings. EW.

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SteveRogers
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The incredibly obviously jokes about incest at the beginning of Shadows In Flight were definitely not an indication of the book as a whole, so it's a shame you quit so easily.

As for Pathfinder, we'll just have to agree to disagree. I thought it was an incredible book and a return to form for Orson Scott Card's pacing and suspense in his writing.

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Synesthesia
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It was a creepy joke. With more of that Alpha male beta male nonsense.

Pathfinder was so... devoid of emotion and suspense for me. I tried so hard.

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SteveRogers
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We'll just have to disagree. I thought the characters were very appealing, and I found myself very much attached to their stories.

[ May 03, 2012, 10:26 PM: Message edited by: SteveRogers ]

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Sciencey
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I really loved this book, thought I wish it answered all my questions (don't we all!) and I kind of wish that it was longer, but y'know. Minor complaints. The overall book was good!

I would've liked some of the book from Bean's perspective too, as he's the most familiar character, but the view of the children, considering they actually did things during the book, was refreshing.

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StillEnderNotBean
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Hi everyone. I loved the book, but I was dissappointed that the buggers (hive queens mostly) were made evil again, especially since they were given redemption in the Ender Quartet. I was wondering if this was done to coincide with the upcoming release of the movie. Maybe to invoke a sense of hate and fear of the buggers that we felt after the invasions from the first book?

Your thoughts?

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millernumber1
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I don't think it's quite as simple as "they buggers are evil again." They are morally complex - but the implications were there in Xenocide/Children of the Mind. It's just been 16 years since OSC dealt with the buggers on any immediate level (other than The Formic Wars, which is definitely going for "The buggers are evil," cause yo...they melted like half of Chine [Smile]

I'm sure Aaron Johnston (twitter.com/aaronwjohnston) would be happy to chat about it, though! He didn't work on Shadows in Flight, but he is working on Formic Wars and the film!

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StillEnderNotBean
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I was unaware of the formic wars until you mentioned it. It does seem like they are approaching the buggers from a new angle lately. The movie and the new books seem to provide a pretty good incentive.
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millernumber1
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I highly recommend the Formic Wars comics and books (although I also liked Ender in Exile a lot, and loved Shadows in Flight).
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Kelly1101
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I wasn't that crazy about Shadows in Flight and didn't like Ender in Exile at all, but I REALLY liked the Earth Unaware series much more than I thought I would. It could really just work as a stand-alone.
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Max Wilson
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quote:
Originally posted by fieryspirit:
[QB] It's not worth anything sorry Steve. Why you feel the need to defend him makes me suspicious. I don't keep up with "announcements".
Did he announce it was going to be crap? No? and Novella? -No. He said it was going to be "something new" - Turns out it's just a b.s money grab. This isn't even a novella. There was no story. what's the story? A dad and his 3 kids go on a trip, they make friends, then their dad dies. GMAFB.

He basically duped his audience.

I know I'm late to this party (and new to this forum) but FWIW I enjoyed /Shadows in Flight/ more than any book in the series since /Ender's Shadow/. Card is better at writing precocious children than brilliant adults, and in a world composed entirely of Beanie-babies their ability to anticipate each other's thoughts is both believable and fun. I liked the character development of Cincinnatus especially.

The science was pretty meh (seriously, Bean and Ender never heard of chimeras before? and then Ender whips up an invasive virus to modify mitochondrial DNA in seventy-two hours? He's both a genius and a dimwit) and there was some definite squick (inbreeding his children was his Plan A all along? he didn't even bring along a frozen sperm bank or ova?) but I got at least as much out of the story as I was expecting.

I don't feel duped at all, rather pleasantly surprised.

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