posted
I just saw the thread titled "My Rant on Pop Music" and it got me thinking. I absolutely can't stand country and rap, along with some pop, such as Britney Spears, N Sync, etc.
But I was in Creative Writing class a few months ago, and one of my classmates said something extremely inciteful. It was something along the lines of "It may be that some bands are completely unoriginal, or don't follow your taste, or whatnot. But if it brings the people who listen to it happiness, then what is the problem?"
It makes an enormous amount of sense to me.
Posts: 1934 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
But is it true happiness or a shallow imitation thereof?
I don't mean to be overly-serious about the subject, but as a music reviewer it's my job to say this is good music or this is bad music. There's always certainly a difference in personal taste and there's plenty of styles of music. But there's good and bad music in all those styles. I typically don't like rap/hip-hop but there are some groups I like (such as the Roots or Jurassic 5 or Outkast). But back to my point, just because something might give someone "happiness" doesn't mean it's anything of substance or quality or uplifting in any way.
Posts: 1295 | Registered: Jan 2003
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Ok, so since im a dj, an artist, a reviewer, a producer, and above all, a lover of music, I concur with what godric said, there is definately a distinction between what is good and what is not, regardless of whether or not people like it. Someone is going to like everything, so the fact that people enjoy it doesnt make it good music.
Annie,go apply for a job at a newspaper, magazine, website, or radio station.
Posts: 1612 | Registered: Jan 2003
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quote: But back to my point, just because something might give someone "happiness" doesn't mean it's anything of substance or quality or uplifting in any way.
If that were the sole requirement of music for me to listen to it, then you just eliminated more than half of my collection.
How does Kiss uplift you? Can the Beastie Boys be described as quality? And how can Beck write anything of substance?
Who knows? But someone, somewhere listens to the lyrics and says, "Dude, I totally get what you are saying", even if it is by Bjork.
Ever been in love? Ever been dumped? Did the love songs start to make A LOT more sense?
Being a music critic is a hard job indeed, but most listeners need something to jam to in which they lose themselves in the music to forget about something else in reality. More often than not, this is music not of substance or quality.
To each their own. I do not try to understand Conway Twitty, but there are ladies out there that would eat his snot with a rusty spoon. You just simply cannot explain people, especially when it comes to tastes in music.
Sorry to rant at you, just hoping you'll see my side!
Objective: Get a really cool job like Godrics where I get paid to give my opinion
Skills: I have been playing the stereo since I was 4 years old. I am an excellent disc-switcher and I always read the liner notes.
Experience: I liked U2 during the 90's, and I kept telling people they weren't out of the picture. I also discovered the link between the Police and the rise in popularity of ska. At the age of 17, I threw away my Garth Brooks concert t-shirt, presciently presaging the subsequent screeching halt of quality country music. I bought the White Stripes before any of my friends.
References: Sully, clerk at Cactus Records. Joey, clerk at CD Warehouse, to whom I sold all my crappy CDs right before everyone else figured out they were crappy. Amazon.com.
Why should we hire you? Because I am always right.
Posts: 8504 | Registered: Aug 1999
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posted
That is the exact question I wanted to ask! I love music, I'm passionate about it, but I despise rap. I can love any song from any genre, even country songs and stuff by Celine Dion but rap annoys me. The music I like best is the music that moves me from within and engages my every single sense... Stuff like Yoko Kanno, Dir en grey, and Tori Amos.
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Seriously, that's all I did. I sent one off to the Phantom Tollbooth and they said I could write for them. Since they're just web-based I don't get paid. But I do get free music and I get to go to some concerts and festivals for free or reduced prices. They're not in print but they are considered the best and most comprehensive source of news and reviews in Christian music. Of course, they cover secular stuff as well.
The next step is to actually get published in print. I'm probably going to send some reviews to Paste Magazine. I met the fellow who's in charge of the mag at Cornerstone and told him how wonderful he was... Posts: 1295 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
I wasn't so much talking about whether the music was considered "good" or "bad." I agree, some songs can definetely be considered "better" than others, just as one of shakespeare's poems would be considered unbelievably better than an average five-year-olds. But what if that five-year-old's poem gives him/her and his/her parent's a huge amount of happiness, much more than any poem of Shakespeare's could give?
Is there any reason to knock that five-year-old's poem, just because it isn't to your liking, or you don't think it is "good" enough?
Posts: 1934 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
CalvinMaker, inciteful isn't really a word. Incite means to provoke or urge on. As in "inciting a riot." I think you meant insightful.
[rant][aimed at no one in this thread]I hate music snobs. Like what you want, but don't demean someone else because they like something different. Bubblegum pop, Country, Rap, Hard Rock, Classical, it's all music. Unless you are making a living making music, be quiet and live and let live. While I'm happy that there is a certain kind of music that you enjoy, let others like what they enjoy. Unless of course, you want me to come to your house and make fun of your decorating taste, food choices, book shelf, or TV viewing habits. There is no accounting for taste, so don't throw stones from that glass house.[/rant]
posted
Then again, there's a difference between cute little five year olds writing poems about fish and corporations hand picking men who are supposed to be handsome but aren't and making them sing dull, insipid, boring songs and making millions of dollars so that there are dozens of people imatating them and the musical excellence dips a lot as the market is flooded with such clowns and people in other countries who had such cool music get flooded with this tripe and no longer want to play cool traditional music which just sucks because cool traditional music is so much better!
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
So since I make my living off of music, I can continue not liking the stuff I think is bad. AWESOME!!!
(please dont take this sarcastically, i really mean it) I always love having my viewpoint validated, thank you kayla. (/end serious moment)
WOOHOO, back to being a music snob for me, except for the fact that when i play music on the radio, i have to play what people want to hear, not neccessarily what i want to hear. and when i review a cd, i give consideration to whether it will be appealing to the average music fan, not just my own view of it.
posted
I tend to like just about every type of music there is, although I'm definitely more passionate about some types than others.
I don't get why what other people like/don't like should matter to me, though. Maybe because I can usually find *something* in common with people musically, whatever their tastes are.
Posts: 374 | Registered: Jun 2003
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quote:people in other countries who had such cool music get flooded with this tripe and no longer want to play cool traditional music which just sucks because cool traditional music is so much better!
This is kind of sad, but not as big of a problem as I once thought. It's really bad in Europe (songs in any language other than English are few & far between on MTV Germany), but they are still basically doing their own think with techno, which is, at the moment, their most significant contribution to world culture. And other places in the world, though they do swallow a bit more American music than is healthy, are really doing quite a good job at developing their own styles and cultural adaptations. Mexico is fabulous. Everyone loves their native music - or at least all the bus drivers and market vendors, who blast it all day, everyday - and the most popular rock groups (like, for instance, Mana) are succeeding in blending American and European sounds with traditional music to make something quite distinct and beautiful. And no where is native music thriving so beautifully as in the Middle East, where most western music is illegal anyway. The majority of popular music there sounds kitschy to Americans, but is quite the source of national pride.
Don't give up hope. Britney has not conquered the world, and U2 is far more popular globally than the Backstreet Boys will ever be. Posts: 8504 | Registered: Aug 1999
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posted
AR, yeah, well, since you make your living at it, I'll take what you say with a grain of salt. The music industry is known for payola and other payoff schemes (after they got caught.) So, it's not like I'd trust anyone in the business with an opinion in the first place. However, if you make your living at it, feel free to look down on whomever you like.
quote:While I'm happy that there is a certain kind of music that you enjoy, let others like what they enjoy. Unless of course, you want me to come to your house and make fun of your decorating taste, food choices, book shelf, or TV viewing habits. There is no accounting for taste, so don't throw stones from that glass house.
Hmmm... Yes and no.
Music, like all art I consider being in one of three categories: Art, entertainment and propoganda. To quote a friend from another board I'm on in which we discussed this topic at length, "'entertainment' is about catering to the selfish needs of the audience and 'propaganda' is about catering to the selfish needs of the artist but 'art' is about drawing both the artist and the audience into something other than themselves."
If a certain piece of music is entertainment it is not inncorrect to label it as nothing more than playing to the audience. Basically, it's "pop" as in popular because it doesn't make any attempt to say anything meaningful. Propoganda is somewhat the opposite as it tries to say something that persuades the consumer to the artist's viewpoint. Now there's nothing necessarily wrong with either of these categories, per say, but neither is art in it's strictest sense. As a music reviewer, or in a more general sense, as an art critic I try to define works as being art or something else. So when I label something as "good" or "bad" it's based on whether I feel it's artistic or not and how "good" it is as a piece of art. I'm not particularly concerned about entertainment or propoganda and I don't have any problem with people who enjoy them other than how so many people mistake those things for art.
[edit] There is, of course, plenty of overlapping between the three categories... That's what makes my job so fun!
I also try to make it clear that I am speaking from a biased perspective (my own) and that my opinions are shaded by my own personal taste. I don't believe that we can be objective nor even that we should try to be when judging art.
I gathered those groups not to imply anything. I am making a point that headbanging to Kiss or the Beastie Boys learning to play instruments as they went through publishing albums were not necessarily BAD things, just not quality or meaningful things.
I actually love Kiss, the BB, and Beck, I just can't listen to serious and influential music ALL the time.
I have a CD in my car changer with:
Bonnie Tyler (Total Eclipse of the Heart) Ray Charles (I Can't Stop Loving You) Queen (Another One Bites the Dust) Rob Zombie (Never Gonna Stop) Joe Satriani (Surfing with the Alien) Toby Keith (I Wanna Talk About Me) The Police (Don't Stand So Close To Me) Young MC (Bust A Move) Tears For Fears (Head Over Heels)
and a bunch of other stuff that doesn't belong together.
Some is meaningful and some is not, but it all makes me very happy!
posted
As long as it can make you sing along when your by yourself then it's a good song no matter who might be the singer.
Singers are just adding music and words to emotions. What's wrong with that? Can you do what they're doing or seem to be doing? If you can that's awesome but if you can't..why are you complaining for someone elses feelings or whatever anyone calls it?
Posts: 4628 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
Come on dude, the beastie boys are deep. I'm talking about classic tunes here: Egg raid on mojo, hey ladies, so what'cha want, skills to pay the bills.
Seriously, I love the Beastie Boys, they're awesome. Did anyone else buy The Sounds of Science? It's a great compilation.
Music snobs are amusing. Most of them just come off as complete jackasses. Can't we all just get along? Can't we just hold hands and listen to All you need is love ?
Posts: 1855 | Registered: Mar 2003
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That last post was VERY well said. Your other posts make much more sense now. And for the last time, I actually LIKE the Beastie Boys!!!
Posts: 1870 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
I wrote an essay on music. I said in it that to me good music means that: The musicians can play their instruments well and sing well, though there are a few that do not have that perfect, ideal voice I like. Kyo of Dir en grey when you first hear him does not have the best voice, but when you REALLY listen to that guy... you see that he sings with his whole heart and his voice has changed, it's gotten deeper and he croons in places... The musician must play or sing with passion, they must put their whole self into the music so that I may open my whole self to them, adding experiences, memories, and my own odd senses. And texture. Texture in music is sometimes overlooked and it's hard to explain, it's like how that music box in this Bjork song called Pagan Poetry feels like ice on the tip of my tongue and how harps can be as cold as snow if they are played high or how some part in a Yoko Kanno song can be like water moving or sunlight on water... It's odd, but it's how I think of things. If it moves me like this Morissey song called Angel, Angel, down we go together does, which I listened to dozens of times, then it's good.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
oh man, i stepped out for a few hours and i became a propaganda tool for the music industry, i hate when that happens.
kayla, ill forgive you, its cool, you dont know what i do so ill help you out.
i work as a producer for a local music studio, recording and mixing music for local bands.
i sing and play guitar in a semi unsuccessful local band which will never go anywhere and i dont care, i just have fun with it.
i dj for a local non commercial radio station, we arent clearchannel or any of the other moguls, we play what we want and we do a fairly good job of it, being the number 2 radio station in the city, my show is number one btw. (chance to gloat)
so whilw i agree with you that many people are just the voice of the industry cramming the usual down your throats, im the opposite, im like a hyped up tower records employee or something.
I like many mainstream stuff, and play some of them on the air, but im more into the stuff you havent heard of and doesnt get enough airplay for the value that it has.
posted
"I like many mainstream stuff, and play some of them on the air, but im more into the stuff you havent heard of and doesnt get enough airplay for the value that it has."
Since my husband became addicted to downloading live music, my musical life has changed drastically. There are so many really great musicians out there, who may not ever make it big, for whatever reason. I still buy studio cds, and the music my hub downloads is not illegally downloaded. The musicians agree to their shows being taped, and are fine with people trading their live shows. There is a very strong ethic among the traders that the music may only be traded, never sold. For me, it started a midlife anti-crisis. I see more live music now than I ever have in my life. Some of our discoveries:
Leftover Salmon(kind of wild bluegrass)
Jennie Stearns(lyrics to knock you off your feet, and a beautiful voice)
Railroad Earth(a bit Waterboys-ish)
Donna the Buffalo(pure heaven, roots rock, hard to categorize)
John Mayer(before he ever hit the charts, we were listening to him)
Nickel Creek(before they got big)
Sim Redmond Band(sort of soft reggae, very melodic)
John Brown's Body(reggae)
String Cheese Incident
The Campbell Brothers(Sacred pedal Steel-gospel-probably the most wonderful musical experience of my life)
Bla bla bla.
As Kayla said, music is music. People like it, or they don't. I have given people cds, and have even taken them to shows of musicians I love. There is never any rhyme or reason to who likes what, so I have stopped trying to get others to get on my bandwagon(bad pun, sorry). (except for qsysue, that is, because I really think she would like Jennie Stearns)
2. The lyrics, and I use the term loosely, are shallow at best.
3. I don't believe that the fans are all that moved by the music. I don't know anyone who still has a New Kids on the Block cd. Does anyone really think that this generation will be listening to the Backstreet Boys when they're grandparents? They already threw out their Spice Girls cds.
4. Appearance is much more important than music. How popular would Brittany Spears or Christina Aguilera be if they looked like the women from The View? How popular would they be if they kept their clothes on, for that matter?
Posts: 3037 | Registered: Jan 2002
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posted
I don't consider the Bangles pop - I think of them as rock. And I will never, ever throw out any of their cds. In fact, I think I'll put one in now.
My gramma loves the Bangles. She would go around whistling Walk Like an Egyptian all the time and she used to play it on the organ, which was very disconcerting.
Posts: 3037 | Registered: Jan 2002
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quote:That last post was VERY well said. Your other posts make much more sense now.
Thanks.
I like a lot of pop music, myself (including some Beastie Boys). But I don't consider much of it very artistic. I am interested, however, in how much popular music is a part of society. I just got back from a club with my friend. It's the sort of place where 30-40 somethings hang out on a Saturday night. I'm not sure why he likes it so much -- I think we were the youngest people there (he's 25 and I'm 22). In any case, it's a peculiar sight to see all these middle-age-ish business types singing and dancing to Ricky Martin and Shakira. I wonder if, a few hundred years from now, people will look back at our times and only remember the musical "artists" and not pay much attention to the music that made such a large impact on popular culture (where one-hit wonders and pop-icons rule).
Elizabeth:
quote:Railroad Earth(a bit Waterboys-ish)...Nickel Creek(before they got big)
Ooh! Waterboys-ish, you say? I'll have to check them out. And Nickel Creek! They're personal favorites!
Mrs. M & Annie:
On the subject of the Bangles -- I love them. Of course, I have a soft spot for most 80s music, both artistic and pop. And I have a soft spot for chick singers/bands. Oh my, did I just admit that...? Posts: 1295 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
Beck is FULL of substance! What do you mean Beck has no substance? He's incredibly poetic and he's expressive and inspiring, very artistic, has that consummate artist's touch of being able to just throw out stuff effortlessly and have it be so exactly right! How can anyone say Beck has no substance? He's crammed full to the brim with substance of all different sorts! I beg to disagree!
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Railroad Earth is a fairly new "jam band." The violinist-fiddler was in another band, but I forget the name. I don't know if you do any live music downloads, but I am pretty sure my husband uses Etree. They have a couple of samples on their website, too.
posted
This is a quote I keep coming back to when I try to figure out why I like some bands and singers, and why I could care less about others.
"It's not as though we're a business trying to be a loose business; what we really are is like artists trying to survive in that half world of entertainment, which is more conscious of its entertainment self than it is of its artist self." --Jerry Garcia
My favorite musicians let the music come through them. They almost lose themselves in it, or they put themselves aside and just let it happen from the heart. I think many of the MTV musicians have to be conscious of what they look like and what they say, because so much of their selling power is visual. I think the music stations changed modern, mainstream music that way.
On another thread, I was trying to figure out why unattractive men can make it and unattractive women can't. Through the discussion, it came clear to me that my theory was off. I don't think it is the physical attributes that make musicians successful now(in a big way), but how much they are willing to give up their artist self to their entertainer self.
quote: Just talk to me some time about the second-best Swedish band in the world! Second only, of course, to ...
Move everyone on your list down a notch, it has a glaring omission.
I remember reading an essay by OSC once in which he stated that the people who say, "I may not know much about art, but I know what I like" tend to know more about art than the supposed professionals. I'm not saying that this is always true, but it was profound enough to stick with me. I have three Beastie Boys albums, and I think that their music has more artistic merit, measured by original, interesting and accessable ideas, than much of the music that is written as self-consciously "groundbreaking" high-art. There's a lot of Emperor's New Clothes syndrome out there that has just as much power to change the minds of "experts" as MTV has power to change the minds of the proles. Truth be told, I bet you could find a few CDs in anyone's collections that they own because they've been told by someone that they should like it. I'm as guilty as anyone else.
Posts: 2804 | Registered: May 2003
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I had a friend in high school who was as arrogant about his music tastes as anyone I've ever met, including myself. After high school, he moved to Boston and formed one of those bands of self-proclaimed "groundbreaking innovators", which happens to be named after a character that some people here may recognize. To this day, every time I've seen him, he's insisted that I purchase at least ten albums immediately (some of which I have, and about half of them have been good and the rest have been a temporarily hip blip on the screen). Of course, if I ever suggested an album to him, he would dismiss it immediately as unworthy of his attention, since he was the Guru and I was but his humble pupil. In fact, one year I loaned him several truly great albums, including Laurie Anderson's "Big Science", which he claimed to listen to and returned to me with the statement that they weren't very good. He went back to Boston and came back a year later. When he saw me, the first thing that came out of his mouth was an order to go out immediately and buy some Laurie Anderson. I've never let him live it down.
Now that the bombastic character study is out of the way, here's the point of the story:
One day we were driving around talking about music. I made an observation, more to be an argumentative jackass than to actually say something of substance. I mentioned to him that when one listens to a CD, the object of the activity is to make oneself happy. We each owned around a hundred albums or so, most of which made us happy when we listened to them. This being the case, our goal has been accomplished. So why should we ever buy or listen to another CD again for the rest of our lives? He muttered some response about the difference between enjoying oneself and enjoying a CD, but it didn't make much sense, and he's never been able to find a better argument. I didn't really mean what I said, but to this day every time I buy a new album I feel like a bit of a hypocrite.
posted
I love old pop standards like by Irving Berlin (Which makes me sound like such an old lady, how cool! ) They wrote EXCELLENT songs back then. The lyrics were clever, you got to love the lyrics to "Let's Do it." They crack me up every time. You had singers who kept their clothes on and swayed the audience just by the power of their voices alone! Now that was a good age for music. And I love 50-60s pop music. It's great! I love the girl bands of the 60s and how a lot of their music, songs like "Jimmy Mack" were just fun enjoyable songs and they sang a few with messages in it besides "If you want me come and get me." People will be listening to stuff like that centuries from now where hopefully most of the modern stuff now will be obscure. I don't know how we went from Alternative to the Backstreet boys back in 1999. I was there watching it happen. (Now, really feels like an old lady) Though, it's not like I mind watching these people wiggle. Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
It's interesting that the idea that induces people to say "I liked so-and-so before they were popular" is the same idea that makes others go and out and buy an album because they've been told by someone that they should like it. We all are very careful about how others view our taste in music (or clothes, or books, or insert-your-medium-here).
Posts: 196 | Registered: May 2003
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posted
"It's interesting that the idea that induces people to say "I liked so-and-so before they were popular" is the same idea that makes others go and out and buy an album because they've been told by someone that they should like it."
Actually, that was not my point in mentioning that at all. I mentioned it because we downloaded their live shows, before they really started making money on studio albums(Nickel Creek, John Mayer) I think Nickel Creek is still OK with trading their live shows.
I was not trying to say that I knew them first, aren't I cool, just that we were introduced to the bands because of the live music trading network. Sorry if it came off that way.
posted
that's cool, Liz. You have to admit, though, most of the times you've heard people say that, they do mean, "ain't I cool, I knew them when, I am above being swayed by popularity."
Posts: 196 | Registered: May 2003
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I really wish many of my favorite bands would make it big, for their sake. Donna the Buffalo is starting to get bigger. They do mainly festivals, but they have hooked up with Jim Lauderdale on a recent album, so they may get more mainstream air time.
Some of the original members of that band, like Richie and Jennie Stearns, are so talented that my mouth drops open hearing and watching them. They made a conscious choice not to do too much touring, but to stay home with their kids as much as possible. I think there are many musicians who have really hard choices to make.
posted
Also, Rohan, I don't really disagree with your point, it just isn't really what I was saying. I remember the Deadhead snobbery. I loved going to see the Dead, and considered myself a Deadhead simply because I liked the music. There was definitely an elite, though, of folks who had gone to umpteen hundred shows, and knew them way back in the days of Haight-Ashbury, or who followed them all over the country.
Sometimes, it is not so much snobbery as amazement. Ben Harper used to play in Northampton fairly regulary. So did Blues Traveller. I never saw either of them, and kick myself for it, but it is just really neat to see a band in your neighborhood who eventually makes it big.
I am sorry about Beck. As I eluded to earlier, I was just grasping for names to fill in the blanks not intending to make a case against a particular artist.
I do however, have a question for my beloved Jatraqueros:
How many of you LOVE Static-X (Especially Wisconsin Death Trip)?
Please raise your fist in the air and shake it at the sky for me. Somehow, I do not know why, I am thinking it will make me feel better.
*Thanks you in advance*
Posts: 1870 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:"It may be that some bands are completely unoriginal, or don't follow your taste, or whatnot. But if it brings the people who listen to it happiness, then what is the problem?"
Okay, sure. But if it's okay for them to like the music I hate, why can't I hate the music they like?
That's the biggest problem I have with the leading brand of tolerance. Instead of hiding our differences or pretending they don't matter, why can't we just learn to say, "I think you're completely wrong, but I like you, anyway"?
Posts: 1046 | Registered: Sep 2002
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) They wrote EXCELLENT songs back then. The lyrics were clever, you got to love the lyrics to "Let's Do it." They crack me up every time. You had singers who kept their clothes on and swayed the audience just by the power of their voices alone! Now that was a good age for music.
