quote: NEW YORK, July 28 — New York City is creating the nation’s first public high school for gays, bisexuals and transgender students.The Harvey Milk High School will enroll about 100 students and open in a newly renovated building in the fall. It is named after San Francisco’s first openly gay city supervisor, who was assassinated in 1978.
“I THINK EVERYBODY feels that it’s a good idea because some of the kids who are gays and lesbians have been constantly harassed and beaten in other schools,” Mayor Michael Bloomberg said Monday. “It lets them get an education without having to worry.”
The school is an expansion of a two-classroom public school program that began in 1984. A gay-rights youth advocacy group, the Hetrick-Martin Institute, has managed and financed the program since its inception.
The new school’s principal, William Salzman, said the school will be academically challenging and will follow mandatory English and math programs. It also will specialize in computer technology, arts and culinary arts.
State Conservative Party Chairman Mike Long criticized the creation of the school.
“Is there a different way to teach homosexuals? Is there gay math? This is wrong,” Long said. “There’s no reason these children should be treated separately.”
The Hetrick-Martin Institute’s Web site says the school will give its students “an opportunity to obtain a secondary education in a safe and supportive environment. ... We believe that success requires the ability to respect and value the diverse human community.”
Hatrack, what do you think? On the one hand, it's been obvious over the last decade that gay and lesbian students are more likely to be harassed then straight students, especially in tough inner city high schools. On the other hand, will this sort of thing create a rift in society between those who are gay and those who are not? Education is fundamental to culture.
This is, of course, not affecting colleges and universities -- at least not officially. There are schools, like Smith, that are known for having a large gay population.
I'm decidedly torn on this issue, but in a way it seems like voluntary segregation...
[ July 28, 2003, 04:42 PM: Message edited by: Kasie H ]
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Short, scrawny, geeky kids get picked on a lot, too. I didn't get my own high school.
Anyway, isn't this a blatant violation of Title 9? Heterosexuals don't have their own schools. That's not "equal protection," is it?
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Its a good idea of students are completely free to put themsleves into the school without interference from parents. At the same time it needs to be made very clear that it is not segregation or else we may see a serious shift toward isolating members of our society much like we did before the '60s.
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As long as we're at it, why not make some public high schools just for black people or Asians or Latinos? Of course, that would create a bit of a problem for your average gay Asian teen; which school should he attend? Hey, while we're at it, why not just put gays on reservations? I mean, that way they'd be safe from all those dangerous heteros and able to live however they pleased.
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The idea is that you're not forcing them. If a homosexual feels that the only way he/she can learn without being harassed is by being in a high school with other homosexuals that this might not be such a bad idea.
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This is ludicrous. An all-gay PRIVATE school makes a certain amount of sense, but encouraging students to further marginalize themselves is just idiotic -- and an outrageous use of taxpayer monies.
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No, but when certain groups can be identified as especially high risk for harrasment then maybe they should be able to be given special environments where they can learn. It could be argued that the exceptionally smart and the learning impaired do get special treatment so that they can learn without being harrassed. At the same time it is a dangerous situation that could lead to even more widespread discrimination.
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But Slash, then you would not be at the top of the food chain. At least in Oregon you have all those ducks you can eat.
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quote: it's been obvious over the last decade that gay and lesbian students are more likely to be harassed then straight students, especially in tough inner city high schools.
hehehehe...you mean with "thugs" and "gangstas"...where the "gangbangas" roll.
You're mistaken, I spent four years in a "tough inner city high school and that is bull. Honestly, that's not a problem. You ask me, suburban schools are where those sort of harassment problems exist.
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All you end up doing is delaying the harassment and abuse 4 years, while making them easy targets for discrimination because the high school name will be immediately identifiable.
The point is to stop the abuse and harassment; this is a band-aid, at best.
posted
Too true. But my friends tell me that they were made fun of more in Middle School than High School. Of course our HS was really big.
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quote: We believe that success requires the ability to respect and value the diverse human community.
And let's help these students develop that ability by creating a separate school for them.
I don't know. If they're all about celebrating diversity, they're doing a good job of making the gay community even more separate, exclusive, and "diverse." Now all the straight kids can learn about their friends who deserve complete acceptance in everyday society and who have their own high school. It's a great teaching tool for everyone.
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So this is just a High School, yes? So what age do you guys start high school? (In Australia we only have primary K-6 and high school 7-12). Cos I also kinda question how responsible it is to try and enforce sexuality roles on kids who may only be 14 or 15.
Surely it would be a better use of taxpayer money AND better for society if that money went into funding better education in schools about homosexuality and better education of teachers to prevent inadvertant discrimination.
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This school only postpones the hurt, I think that the sooner they deal with the "problem" of harassment the better they will be to deal with it later on in life. This school can not even be a bad aid, I feel it only makes the problem worse in the long run.
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The problem with the whole postponing the hurt argument is that at least theoretically people are more mature, and so are both less likely to harrass others and are more able to deal with the harrassment that exists.
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Bah, "postponing the hurt" is just a nice way of saying "we'll never get rid of discrimination, so deal with it". Of course, if everyone takes that attitude, not only will discrimination never disappear or even lessen, it will probably become accepted as okay. After all, that's just life, right?
NFL, thanks. So we're talking about kids who might still be figuring a helluva lot about themselves making a decision at age 14 or so that they are gay. What the hell?!? Do hetero kids have to do this? No. They don't.
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Honestly, I agree with the plan. In highschool, you learn who you are and what you plan to do. The problem for gays is that people don't like what they represent even though those same people do the same thing; they love another person.It's just that in highschool, you can't react to the torment. If you do react, your education suffers because you'll be either suspended or expelled. After highschool, I'm not really sure what happens to you if you do react.
Geeks had their brains. Yes, they get tormented but the reason they're tortured is because those that torture them want to look good and not feel, 'under' these 'ugly dweebs'. Gays though, they're only tortured because of the way they are and not because they make someone else look bad or something. They get harrassed for 'loving' someone and I believe they should be allowed to do that without disruptions.
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If people are not exposed to homosexuals then they are unable to understand how to be around them. "maturity" comes with experience not age.
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I just think you underestimate how much 14 year olds already know about themselves, Ethics Gradient.
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Let's be clear about one thing: bullies pick on people because they can. You can say that gays get beat up for different reasons than nerds in high school, but I have never seen any evidence of that. If a bully sees an opportunity to bully someone, he will.
And aside from that, what difference does it make what the reason for the bruises is? A black eye, a fat lip, a laceration from having rocks thrown at you, getting spit on, getting called names, these things hurt the same to everyone.
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Also the purpose is not to lessen discrimination but to enable homosexuals to have a good learning environment.
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Maeth, so do you set gay kids up as being so different, so strange, so not like every other kid that they need their own school? How does that help them to be a part of society or society accept them? So what happens after school? Do they go to a predominantly gay college? Do they get a job in a predominantly gay industry (is there one)? Do they live in a predominantly gay suburb? And what happens to the other 95% of the population? How do they learn to accept homosexuality? No, I don't think it helps. It's a stop-gap solution. It says "well, gay kids get bullied at school so lets take them out of school" rather than "gay kids get bullied at school, so let's work hard to make sure that kids are educated from kindergarten that being gay is ok and that teachers never discriminate on the basis of sexuality".
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It's not always bruises, Saxon. If something goes out of hand, 'the fun' goes out of hand, who know what might happen.
Yes, maturity comes with experience but if you're concerned for someone's education, their reactions towards how they're treated can affect their education. Even for other things, not including education, like sports. Would you want a gay person to be on your team for some coaches do not? Do you want a gay to be changing in the same lockerroom as you? Not everyone gets treated fairly.
Also, are you saying that the disabled should also be treated equally? I'm not saying the gays are disabled, I'm just saying that if the disabled were treated the same as others, they would also get bullied or pitied. If everyone got treated equally there'd be a lot of suffering.
Anyhow, why not experiment with the idea?
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If people think this is good for these kids, then why dont they go ahead and re-segregate us? Let blacks have their high schools, and whites have theirs. Come to think of it - let's go ahead and split them by economics too. All the kids with parents whose per-capita income is below $50,000 get their own school where they won't get intimidated by "rich kids"
Separating people is saying "we can't exist together, it's better if we're separate." But then the same group stands up and says "We want to be treated like everyone else!"
"You do? How so? You don't want to go to school with the rest of us."
posted
No, it should give them at least some pride for who they are and not let the society get to them because of their differences. If they're together with their own 'kind' it should at least encourage them that they are not alone in such a discriminating world. We're all different, all strange but some of us learn to accept the diversity. Some of us disagree and try and make another person unstrange and undifferent. Yet, if these people experience what it is to feel proud of who you are without disruptions, isn't that good?
This shouldn't let them feel they are hiding from reality, just showing them a certain way to stay true to themselves. Of course they're going to get criticized out of school. They're stil going to be bothered, they're still going to be discriminated but you shouldn't let that affect their way of finding themselves.
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quote: Come to think of it - let's go ahead and split them by economics too. All the kids with parents whose per-capita income is below $50,000 get their own school where they won't get intimidated by "rich kids"
Isn't that why public schools are for, while private schoolers have to pay for education/'safety'? There is always something that classifies someone.
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quote:It's not always bruises, Saxon. If something goes out of hand, 'the fun' goes out of hand, who know what might happen.
I don't understand what you mean here.
Mae, I know you mean well, but I think you're a bit misguided. If we treated disabled people the same they'd get bullied or pitited? I'm sorry, but disabled people are probably the most singled out, made fun of group that exists in school. And even when they are not actively made fun of, they are the most isolated and tend to have the fewest friends outside of the other disabled students. Very few people in our society are capable of interacting normally with a disabled person, even fewer when you're talking about kids.
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Actually, I think I have a very realistic idea of 14 year old kids. I don't think kids that age are prepared to definte their sexuality identity - for Pete's sake, they're not even allowed to have sex and find out what they like. Can you explain exactly what the difference is between "lessening discrimination" and "having a good learning environment"? It seems to me that what you're saying is "it's ok to hate these kids because they're gay, so let's just chuck 'em all together in a special school so they still learn stuff." Why not actually try and prevent discrimination? For example, blacks are still discriminated against in the US... but nowhere near as much as they were 30 years ago. Why? Education, integration, anti-discrimination classes for teachers, etc. So, the answer for gay kids is obviously segregation...
I understand that this is all being done with the best intentions of the kids at heart. However, I think it will be productive in the short term (kids avoid descrimination / "get a better learning environment") and immensely counter-productive in the longer term (i.e. the minute they leave high school).
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For you, maybe Saxon, but others think differently and try and have the public interact with them. Yet when they do, there are those that abuse the time they have with a disabled person and hurt the person even more. Also, people always will pity disabled people because we feel we're more capable than them.
In schools, or the schools I've been to, they try and interact the disabled with the other students. The only reason they're treated as well is because of pity. Do these same people pity gays?
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quote: I don't think kids that age are prepared to definte their sexuality identity - for Pete's sake, they're not even allowed to have sex and find out what they like.
Does it take sex to realize that you like the same gender as your own?
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quote:If they're together with their own 'kind' it should at least encourage them that they are not alone in such a discriminating world. We're all different, all strange but some of us learn to accept the diversity.
Mae, I understand what you're trying to say here. And it really is a good sentiment. However, I think you are totally wrong about the way to achieve self-confidence and an equal, harmonious society. Yes, absolutely homosexual and lesbian teenagers shouldn't be discriminated against. They shouldn't feel less because of their sexual orientation. However, they also shouldn't be shut away from everyone else, locked up in a small world which not only HELPS the outside world (the rest of their generation, especially) develop strong feelings against them but also prevents them from having contact with the rest of the world. It seems all nice and happy-happy on the surface. When I first read the article I went "hey, great!". Then I actually thought about it. No, it's a stop-gap. It side steps a problem in society. It avoids blame, it lets everyone NOT deal with the fact that discrimination exists. It will cause more problems for the kids it tries to help than having them in the same schools as everyone else... with a positive message about homosexuality.
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Mae, no it doesn't take sex. However, if we believe that teenagers aren't allowed to have sex until a certain age then we shouldn't force them to completely define their sexual orientation until that age either.
That comment is simply putting things in perspective.
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It's just highschool. They'll have friends from middle school who aren't like they are. This highschool is their choice, they don't have to go if they feel they can survive this behavior they're given. Is this idea preventing them from going to public places AFTER school? There's summer, winter holidays... School isn't the whole year or the whole day. What if they get criticized at home? They need some place to feel a bit more..free.
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If they choose to be gay at a young age, then they choose it. They can go to that highschool and see if they really believe it's what they want to be without having people force them to mold themselves into someone they don't intend to be at first.
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Belle, do you think vouchers will cause more clumping by particular group, leading to the exact situation you see in this thread?
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The city opens up a new high school just for black students, but keeps all other public schools open to all students. The choice to go to this new school is entirely up to the students and/or their parents, the rationale being that if they could get away from racism, they would have a better learning environment.
Is this a good idea?
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There are at least a few black high schools with an afrocentric curriculum. I'm pretty sure that they're, to one degree or another, taxpayer funded. Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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It's not a good idea nor is it a bad idea. If a parent feels that this enviroment is best for his/her child, then they'll feel that way. If the child is still getting an education, in an enviroment the parent or even the student wishes to be taught in, shouldn't they at least be given that privilege? It's the decision of the person and some group is letting that person decide wether this school is best for him/her to learn in or a different school. It all depends on choices.
Yet, there would then be many ways to make different schools out of different classifications, making it a bad idea.
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And as far as that goes, there have been a ton of all-girl or all-boy schools. I believe there have been at least a few studies that demonstrate that boys and girls learn better when segregated by sex.
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Most of those schools are predominantly black because they are in predominantly black neighborhoods. They do not "choose" so to speak but are forced by conditions.
The situation with a school for the "sexually orientated challenged" is that they are choosing to seperate themselves using the taxpayers money.
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Storm, are they black high schools because of their location or because they were created just for black students?
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