posted
So, I just got back from a weekend in the Bitterroot. My dear friend Moriah got married, and it was absolutely lovely. It was an outdoor wedding and an outdoor reception, and miraculously, the forest fire smoke blew away and we got to see blue sky all day.
The whole family dynamics were hilarious. Moriah comes from one of two families that comprise the entire population of the Bitterroot Valley. Her husband Jared is a convert, and has a brother, a grandma, and a couple cousins that live too far away to come. Moriah on the other hand has 34 first cousins. The entire wedding party consisted of very small cousins. There were the Utah cousins, who came in matching Old Navy getup; The Catholic cousins, from her mom's side, who are identical to the Mormon cousins in every respect except the length of their skirts; and most entertaining are the apostate cousins, who feel the need to make it clear at all times that they are happily living in some sort of sin. Loretta made bawdy jokes about bridal shower gifts, Elaine kept showing off her tongue ring, and crazy Uncle Hans told all the Utah cousins (whom he referred to not by their real names, but by nicknames like "Digger" and "Slappy") that they weren't supposed to use tongue when they kissed the bride.
I had the noble calling (being the best friend who wasn't a bridesmaid because of the number of sisters Moriah has) of decorating the cake with flowers. The cake was not actually a cake, but a regal pyramid of cupcakes, and it was just to look at; there were sheet cakes for people to actually eat. I didn't ask what they did with all the cupcakes. My decorating supplies consisted mainly of purple tulle and christmas lighs. I smiled and assembled them as non-heinously as I could manage, and endured all the gushy complements on how breathtakingly beautiful it all was (look! Real Baby's Breath!) and endorsements on my chosen career in art. Gee, thanks. Can I put this in my portfolio?
I didn't get to meet much of Moriah's husband, a cop from Hamilton whom she met while cleaning his teeth. He wore dark sunglasses during the whole reception and I had the sneaking feeling he had a surveillance team trained in on me the whole time. He'd heard of me, of course - everyone hears stories about the wacky art student best friend who's 22 and doesn't even have a boyfriend, just like everyone hears stories about Crazy Uncle Hans and Apostate Cousin Jessie and the drug bust. He shook my hand cordially and eyed my present suspiciously. Just for spite, I had wrapped it in paper of delicate blue that said in a very pretty script: "If you don't like it, you can return it."
But all in all, I was very impressed. It's nice to be home, no matter how weird home keeps getting, and it's good to see good friends, no matter how old good friends keep getting.
And it's good to reaffirm one's faith in the institution of marriage that, despite the mother-of-the-groom locking her keys and the plastic forks in the car and panicking for a good three hours and the mother-of-the-bride losing the Josh Groban CD and sending the bridesmaids off to the farm house in the old red truck to fetch some replacement music in the form of Patsy Cline, things work out and people are happy and love can be a practical thing while still being wonderful.
And Moriah was pretty and happy and I think Jared will be good to her. And that's all that really matters.
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I'm glad for your friend. If you don't mind, could you decorate and ship a cupcake to me. I'm pretty hungry.
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posted
I do have some extra purple tulle around here if you like... I think it would go nicely with your fairy wings.
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posted
Does having the tongue pierced cause one to be "living in sin" or is it the showing off of the tongue piercing that pushes it over the edge of morality?
Posts: 9871 | Registered: Aug 2001
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Kayla, it would the tongue-piercing itself that is the sin, but the proud displaying of it evidences the other fearful sign of pride and unrepentance.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Yeah, I learned after about thirteen piercings (slight exaggeration) that I had defiled the temple of God. It bugged me because I'm pretty devoted and I still have these holes, which will probably never go away.
posted
It's kind of like the 666 on the forehead. Basically a shortcut way to say "I'm going to hell, and I like it that way."
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posted
Okay, I can't tell if you know its a joke or not. On the off chance that someone in the viewing audience is concerned, here's what I know.
No, it's not bad. Well, in a GC talk, Pres. Hinkley said not to pierce things like that because it is very worldly and buying into the worldly concept of beauty. (It's also rebellion simply for rebellion's sake, which is tacky past the age of 21.)
However, it isn't a great sin and it is much lighter than, say, not doing family home evening or neglecting to read your scriptures every day.
What it is in the culture is a visible sign of "I want to be different." Hence, if someone is bragging about it, it's for effect.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
I still think it's a high ceiling. Rebellion for rebellion's leads to all sorts of social and personal maladies and should be nipped out in the beginning. Rebelling for the sake of rebelling is the product someone who isn't thinking. You rebel [/i]for[i] something, even if it's just fun, but it should be a positive endeavor for the sake of something. Even if the acts you take while rebellion are right, they aren't Good because you haven't put any thought or intent to it. No, 21 is too old.
quote: apostate - 1340, from L.L. apostata, from Gk. apostasia "defection, desertion, rebellion," from apostenai "to defect, stand off," from apo- "away from" + stenai "to stand."
quote:I still think it's a high ceiling. Rebellion for rebellion's leads to all sorts of social and personal maladies and should be nipped out in the beginning. Rebelling for the sake of rebelling is the product someone who isn't thinking. You for rebel for something, even if it's just fun, but it should be a positive endeavor for the sake of something. Even if the acts you take while rebellion are right, they aren't Good because you haven't put any thought or intent to it. No, 21 is too old.
People aren't perfect, though, and not everyone reaches that conclusion at the same time. There has to be room to grow.
It isn't that it is okay before, it's that there is a space and time to figure out that it isn't. Kind of like giving newbies a window to be an idiot before forming a concrete opinion. It isn't that some don't start out an idiot; it's that it isn't fatal.
----
quote:So what is a Christian? Dead meat? (seriously)
I'm not sure what you mean. Are you asking Mormons consider the eternal status of non-Mormons to be?
posted
There is still a lot of growing up to do after you realize that rebelling for the sake of rebelling is inhumane. I think 10 is a fine age for that talk.
I'm going to clarify because this is an important distinction, I believe in action with a purpose. It's not that I don't believe in rebellion. High schoolers should toilet paper each other's houses or disobey their parents if those actions have a purpose, and hopefully, a virtue.
There is a wealth of exploration to be done after one realizes the worthlessness of rebellion for rebellion's sake. I think this distinction is what separates curious children who make good decisions from curious children who don't.
Isn't this what the CTR rings are all about? I'm may not agree with everything that goes into them, but I believe there is a positive moral good basing one's decisions on some sort of standard of virtue as opposed to just being opposite whatever the power happens to be, and I think this should be discussed from the very beginning.
posted
Here's what I mean. How do you guys view Christians? Were we saved before Joseph Smith had his visions, or were we never saved at all? And what happened to all the people who lived before Smith started his church? (I'm not asking this condescendingly, but seriously. I once was talking with two Mormon women and they were planning on coming over but then they sent two men instead, and I couldn't let them in because I was home alone. I wonder why the girls didn't come?) I'm curious about what Mormons believe about themselves, rather than what the books say, because they all say that none of you know what you believe, which doesn't make any sense to me. I wanted to get it from the source.
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quote:There is still a lot of growing up to do after you realize that rebelling for the sake of rebelling is inhuman. I think 10 is a fine age for that talk.
10 would a great age. But it doesn't always happen, and it isn't always a tragedy when it doesn't.
Life isn't a race, Irami. There are many important things to do, but it is more important to do them right than to do them first. Some people simply aren't done with that part of growing up by age 10, and while it may be inconvenient, it isn't a tragedy.
This isn't a prescription: "Shoot for being done by 21." This is description: "In the range of growing up, 21 is the far right of the bell curve."
-----------------------------
PSI: Oh, wow. These are great questions. Let me think. There's also a thread around here somewhere.... *rummages through Hatrack bookcase* Here it is.
quote:How do you guys view Christians? Were we saved before Joseph Smith had his visions, or were we never saved at all? And what happened to all the people who lived before Smith started his church?
As Christians.
There is a slight difference in terminology, in that there isn't one act or one statement and then you're home free.
What happens to those who don't have the gospel and get baptized by someone with the authority of God in this life is they get one more chance to accept it after, but it is much harder then.
quote:(I'm not asking this condescendingly, but seriously. I once was talking with two Mormon women and they were planning on coming over but then they sent two men instead, and I couldn't let them in because I was home alone. I wonder why the girls didn't come?)
Probably, you met the sisters in a place that was in their "area" - the ground they cover. However, you live in the elders "area". Missionaries are divided geographically, and its kind of a big deal to cross over. When the sisters sent the other missionaries, they probably didn't know that the elders wouldn't be able to get in. However, when I was a sister, we could go to elders' areas if we were requested, so something slipped there.
quote: I'm curious about what Mormons believe about themselves, rather than what the books say, because they all say that none of you know what you believe, which doesn't make any sense to me. I wanted to get it from the source.
quote:10 would a great age. But it doesn't always happen, and it isn't always a tragedy when it doesn't.
Life isn't a race, Irami. There are many important things to do, but it is more important to do the right than to do them first. Some people simply aren't done with that part of growing up by age 10, and while it may be inconvenient, it isn't a tragedy.
If they don't have those skills by ten, the kid is walking on slippery ground because that's when they have to start making serious choices. I think there is an order of operations to growing up well, and this one is something that is important, not just a matter of convenience.
Well, we have differing opinions to the seriousness of this, and I think we've explained our opinions well enough. Good luck with Teleport's LDS questions. _____
Kayla,
I must be tired because I just thought of "What is the virtue of a proportional response, you know, why is it good?" And everyone looking around thinking, "Oh yeah."
posted
Yeah, there is so very MUCH rebelling that needs to be done for the very good reason of fixing things and making them better, that to do it for no reason at all, and without thought to limiting the destruction you will cause, is really bad. I don't care what age, though. Even 45 year olds aren't too old to wise up and figure out where they keep screwing up and learn better, I think.
Things like that stupid worm, for instance. I bet it was probably someone under 21 but older than 10 who released it. The thing is, there's no way to know in advance how much destruction you are unleashing when you do stuff like that.
Irami, I think because you had such a very unprotected childhood compared to many of us, you tended to learn things younger than did we.
PSI Teleport, just want to make the short answer clear, which is that there are levels and levels of heaven in our view of things, and good people in general, including other Christians, have access to all but the very highest realms of glory.
[ August 19, 2003, 12:09 PM: Message edited by: ak ]
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I was just curious because in "Saints", Hyrum (I think it's Hyrum...the one that Dinah and Charlie meet) says that if you're not Mormon, you're going to Hell. I realized it was fiction but I wasn't sure how it related to the real Mormon faith. Thanks for the answer. Also thanks to Kat for the links.
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posted
I hope my story (an attempt at humor) didn't sound critical of the apostate cousins any more than it was critical for humor's sake of anyone else.
I am quite opposed to criticizing people based on actions. I have very dear friends who are apostates, heathens, and worse. I also know that I am no better than any of them and I have my own problems to face if I want to progress.
Just wanted to make that clear; intra-cultural humor can come across as inter-cultural criticism if not handled well, and I wrote this one off the cuff.
And to tell the truth, apostate cousin Loretta and Crazy Uncle Hans are some of my favorite people.
Posts: 8504 | Registered: Aug 1999
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posted
Wow. I think that was almost worse, Annie! Some of my best friends are gay, black or [fill in the blank.]
No offense was taken on my part. I was just giving you a hard time. Sorry. (Hint to all Hatrackers, unless it's about race relations, felons or Rwanda, I'm more than likely joking. )
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