posted
Good lord, Belle, you're doing that I-get-the-last-word-and-run-away thing again? In another homosexual thread, no less?
quote:Adultery can happen between two people who love each other and are committed to each other, and just happen to be married to someone else. Does that make adultery okay in this case?
Heh. Jesus. Yes, Belle. Allowing a loving, committed, monogamous couple to marry each other is exactly like adultery -- the exact opposite of what marriage is all about.
Heh. Sometimes the arguments are extreme enough to make me wince, sometimes they're ridiculous enough to make me laugh...
quote:I'm a traditionalist, I admit. I feel more comfortable with my pastor being a man, but that's just a matter of tradition and comfort zone, not because I think women shouldn't be allowed to occupy positions in the ministry. The spiritual gift of pastoring, and teaching can be bestowed to both male and female, and I firmly believe God calls women to the ministry, just as he does men. There are too many phenomenal women ministers for it to be any other way.
Feminists always come down heavy on Paul, and I don't really understand it. Paul mentions about 40 people personally in his letters that are involved in the church, and 16 of them are women. He doesn't bring them up because they're old girlfriends - they're collaborators. Phoebe is described as a deacon, using the same word Paul used to describe himself when he said he was a deacon of the New Covenant in 2 Corinthians. He refers to Junia as a "well-respected apostle before me." And supposedly he hates women?
What about Galatians 3:28? He says we are all equal in Christ Jesus, Jew and Gentile, master and servant, male and female.
If we are equal in Christ, then why can't a woman serve in the ministry?
HA!
Oh, MAN. MAN.
I'm laughing. Out loud. Really. Do you not realize what you're saying?
There are three places in the Bible used by anti-homosexuals to justify the whole God-Hates-Fags deal. One is the city of Sodom, where God smote the people trying to rape the travellers -- you would really have to stretch to get the Bible to say God smote them because they were trying to rape men, rather than because they were trying to rape..
The second is in Leviticus. Yes, that silly book banned by the Council of Jerusalem for being so extreme. It also bans cutting your hair, wearing shirts woven of different fibers, expelling menstruating women, sowing fields with different seeds, etcetera.
The third is a tiny blurb by Paul that says men shalt not lie with men. This is what's largely used to condemn homosexuals, since it's hard to find anything else to use.
Belle, you just discounted Paul's misogyny because, hell, aren't we all equal in Christ according to Galatians 3:28? Despite what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 11:7-9: "For a man...is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; neither was man created for woman but woman for man. For this reason, and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head"? Or in 1 Corinthians 14:34b-35: "As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says, If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church"?
Aren't homosexuals equal? Or if they aren't, aren't women sinners just by not being subservient to us men? How many of you wretched sinners haven't expelled yourself to the desert at your time each month?
Remember when you misunderstood Bob Scopatz's post, Belle, and believed he asked you not to express your opinions any longer? You were so outraged! How dare he ask you to deny yourself? Who is he to control you? But that's nothing like you demanding that homosexuals not only deny who they are, but live celibate and alone for all their days. No. It's nothing like Paul or Timothy declaring, to use Squick's reference, that women who don't listen in silence and subjection, but dare to teach men, have the Devil inside them.
Hypocrisy. Selfish, bigoted twisting of a book you claim to hold sacred. I'm truly disgusted with beliefs like yours, Belle, and disappointed that someone I could respect could also hold such twisted beliefs -- and what's worse, be blind to her own hypocrisy.
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Actually, pot has recently been relegalized in Alaska as long as it is in your own home and you have less than 4 ounces. Under state law, of course, federally it is still completely illegal. Also, since it was one of their appellate courts that ruled the applicable law unconstitutional, their Supreme Court might also decide to do something. (As far as I know, they have not yet.)
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Right - both are movements fighting for (and gaining some official) legitimacy. That makes the analogy closer.
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Kat, pot, except for Alaska, which I'm sure would be trumped by Ashcroft in Federal Court, isn't legal. It is illegal. However, homosexual marriage, which isn't illegal, would be made illegal by Bush's "Marriage is between a man and a woman."
Do you seriously not see the difference?
And by the way, it would have been illegal for for hetero couples to have anal or oral sex in 9 states as well. Should we create a law that says in those states, hetero couples shouldn't be allowed to marry?
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Kayla, I'm not concerned with legality. I'm talking about legitimacy - the larger issue. The official stamp of approval from the state. Both issues have different routes through the law to legitimacy, but it is the same destination.
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Amka, honey, your last post is why I made this thread. See, I *do* actually talk with people on the other side of the aisle (so to speak), and I see that you guys, at least here on Hatrack--but then, who am I posting to, anyway?-- really are very nice and loving people who really are able to hate the sin but love the sinner. I recognize that in you dwells a spirit of compassion. And I say that in both the literal and figurative sense. I wrote my post because I believe if a truth is spoken, and people do listen, that eventually they will act on the realization of that truth.
I know that you guys see the truth of the fact that all people are brothers, and we are all bound as a family. I know that because you have made this realization that you will do what is best for gay people, while honoring your commitment to your doctrine, as best you can.
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*sneaks into thread hoping no one will notice--or judge--him*
I would just like to draw everyone's attention to the sincerity of both Belle and dkw's respective theologies.
Both women are committed to the same God. Both women feel that they've studied the scriptures and tested them against their hearts and against their communication with God himself. Through prayer and conviction, both of these women have come to completely opposite versions of God, though both of them depend deeply on the same salvation--the very same Christ who died on the cross to pay the penalty for all sin.
It is impossible for both views to be true.
So. Given the fact that both of these women will say that their beliefs are a direct result of their relationship with God and His personal revelation to them, we are left with the following possibilities:
1) One of them is lying (or both).
2) One of them is being deceived (or both).
3) One or both of them have been brainwashed.
4) God is insane, or just can't make up his almighty mind.
The underlying implication of this debate is that each woman must necessarily think of the other as... well, as a heretic. One who claims to serve God but in actuality serves something else.
But here's the catch:
BOTH OF THEM ARE RIGHT.
How can they not be? How can Belle really really believe something that isn't true to her? How can dkw really really believe something that isn't true to her?
This is why I gave up on the discussion of whether or not homosexuality is a sin. It's pointless. I have no desire to go around telling folks that what they truly truly believe is false, even though in the end that is the way it MUST be.
Take me, for instance. I believe that if there really is a God with a vested interest in human behavior, he would have to be a good God. I believe he would be a God that builds bridges rather than tearing them down. I believe that he would want the human race to grow; and in watching us spend the last six thousand years being almost completely intolerant of one another's differences, I believe he might just continue to throw more and more differences into the mix until we can learn to accept one another as unique and glorious creations of his handiwork. Like the child that refuses to eat his vegetables; you gotta put the green on the plate if you want 'em to be healthy.
And I believe that a God who would create me to be a homosexual and then damn me to hell if I ever acted on it would be a stupid and hateful being. A good God doesn't get off on torture, if you ask me. It's like putting Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden, and creating them so that the only thing they ever hunger for is fruit from the Tree of Knowledge.
Sorry, but if God was really like that, it would be he who deserved to die on the cross anyway, not us.
The only difference is that I'm not going to sit here and claim that I've come to these beliefs as a result of studying scripture for months on end, while pleading with God from a prostrated position on the floor of my apartment on a daily basis--though I've done both over the course of my life. I won't even tell you that I really believe those things I said, since I definitely do not have a working relationship with God at the moment. They're just thoughts in my head, not some divine truth passed down to me by a vision of Saint Peter, or affirmed by 15 different Old Testament prophecies.
And I'd venture a guess that that is true for more of us than we realize.
But, from kat, Belle, Jacare, Sweet William and a host of others' perspectives, my 'beliefs' are necessarily of the world, and therefore under the influence of the Devil.
Is there any amount of reasoning that can crack that perception? No. Because to them it is true. To them it is right. God has "spoken" to them and they would rather die than challenge what he "said".
And then we all run around saying how much we 'respect' each other's beliefs. How much we 'love' each other even while we put an X in the box marked 'deceived' next to each others' names.
I think that if there is a God, this would make him very sad. And I think that if Christ really died for our sins, it was probably for mistakes that WE made, not mistakes that He made.
But what's the point. This just gets more and more depressing because all the things I want to say are predicated on the idea that you fundamentalist Christians are just wrong wrong wrong. I could even use the Bible to try and make my points, but it wouldn't matter at all because, again, my mind is being driven by the devil.
Well, for what it's worth, folks, I don't believe that your beliefs are evil. I don't believe that your beliefs are based on hatred. I do think that your beliefs are wrong and harmful, but I will not go into why I think that is, because it is not my place to get the world to eat its vegetables.
But I implore you: while I may be a sinner as much as any other man, if there's a God to see on judgment day he will be looking into my heart. Please ask of your God to give you the wisdom to see the same.
posted
Caleb, I do think it's possible to see homosexuality as a sin and yet treat gay people with compassion and allow them full civil liberties. I think the replies of many of the other posters show that they are very close to being able to do that. Just give it time. Just because the doctrine says one thing doesn't mean their hearts don't know what is really true.
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I wasn't paying any attention to this thread until about an hour ago. It's a topic so beat to death, one that leaves me with a headache, and maybe a little heartache, that I couldn't bring myself to read its entirety, let alone say anything.
But I will pray God gives me the wisdom to see the hearts of others. Sounds like an excellent prayer.
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I can't say anything that would express how much that post makes me respect you, Caleb. It's awe-inspiring to see such forgiveness. I hope someday everyone respects such an attitude.
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Caleb, you're an idiot for leaving. No one here hates you, you big galoot. Get your ass back here. Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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Kat, I'd still like to know why coffee and tea haven't been outlawed. It seems to me that every Starbucks would be an affront. They even get the same tax breaks as other companies. And the tea industry even gets government subsidies. Now that is legitimacy.
See, the whole problem began when the SC overturned that Texas law. Then Canada decided to allow gay marriage. Then Bush decided to test the waters on a bill that said marriage was between a woman and a man.
quote: Washington - President George W. Bush said Wednesday he supports the traditional vision of marriage and government lawyers are working on a law spelling it out.
That isn't gays pushing to legitimize gay marriage. That is Bush trying to outlaw it preemptive.
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Lalo- Totally out of line. Back off Belle. She is entitled to her opinion and name calling does NOTHING.
I take incredible amounts of offense to your attacks on the Bible. You are obligated to show respect to everyone and their beliefs. You can disagree with them until you die, but you must respect them. I would value from remembering this sometimes too.
Caleb- The thing is man has a sin nature. Without God we tend towards sin. That's why we need him to come into our lives.<--Obviously a Christian statement. Take it for what you will.
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Come to think of it, if it weren't for God in the first place, man's natural tendency wouldn't be to sin. Posts: 9871 | Registered: Aug 2001
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Stormy: I am going to reply. I know that you know what I was really asking, and you never really answered the question, so I will rephrase it. "What fuels your passion" to post threads that upon close reading display your disdain for Christianity and its doctrine? I am sure you will ask for examples of where you show disdain. Here it is in your statements and lines of questioning:
1)"isn't it reasonable to conclude that perhaps your doctrine is wrong and in need of modification"
2)"Why not modify your faith to fit what your experience and your senses tell you is true?"
3)"Why does God not reveal these truths to you [instead of through the prophets]? If you believe in God, then why not believe that He will reveal to you what is true and valid and needed for yourself?
4)"If He hasn't 'told' you, personally, that being gay is wrong, then why not believe your senses and the justification of your reason?"
What you imply, in your line of questioning, is that if a person has "faith" (in things unseen), or if they believe in the "Biblical truth" set in writing by the prophets, then they are acting out of ingnorance when they believe something is sinful.
posted
None of what you posted reveals 'disdain' on my part for 'Christianity and its doctrines'. Only a willful misinterpretation of what I wrote would even suggest such a thing. What you posted reveals that I do not understand why doctrine is sufficient, or more important, than faith, or reason, or experience. This is what I asked. This is what I wrote.
I have defended Christians on this thread who believe homosexuals are sinful, because I know them and understand that they are good people and that they really do hate the sin and love the sinner. Perhaps it is too much to ask that you believe the same thing of me, that I believe that Christians are, in my philosophy, wrong in their beliefs, yet I do not hate them for believing so, nor I do I feel disdain for them.
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quote:Lalo- Totally out of line. Back off Belle. She is entitled to her opinion and name calling does NOTHING.
She certainly is entitled to her opinion, as disgusted as I am by it -- especially considering that I actually like Adrian as a person.
What name calling are you talking about?
quote:I take incredible amounts of offense to your attacks on the Bible. You are obligated to show respect to everyone and their beliefs. You can disagree with them until you die, but you must respect them. I would value from remembering this sometimes too.
Read closer, junior. I've made no "attacks on the Bible," whatever the hell that means. But Belle's willingness to discard the Bible's bigoted stances against women and her anxiousness to preserve the Bible's (far rarer) bigoted stances against homosexuals does not reflect well on her.
Respect her beliefs? I have no problem respecting religious beliefs, though it's likely that I'll question them. But her support of actions taken to reduce homosexuals to a stigmatized sub-class of citizens is as vile as the actions themselves. I expect better from her. And if she's determined to support prejudice against homosexuals, I beg both you and her, give me more reasoning than your selective beliefs derived from whichever passages in the Bible support existing prejudices -- let alone discarding other bigoted Biblical stances that you don't agree with.
Read Caleb's post. Please, try to tell me anti-homosexual fundamentalists are more Christian than he is.
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I think a good way to look at homosexuality is. If it is not directly affecting you or being directed at you. Then...WHY SHOULD YOU CARE? In those rare times I have been hit on by gay man I have simply told them I don't swing that way. That was it. Why hate a person or discriminate against them for how they are? I have gay friends...once they know you are not...you are completely taken out of their sexual equation.
There is no truth that can be told so as to be understood and not believed.-OSC
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Lalo, you've been incredibly disrespectful and insulting to people on this thread, and to their beliefs. You have actively denounced the sources of their beliefs. You have ignored their clear desire to do what is right.
And more directly relevant, you have flagrantly ignored the board rules. We are guests here, which means we follow the rules.
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"Only a willful misinterpretation" of what I wrote would even suggest that I implied that you "hate them [Christian idividuals] for believing so [in their doctrine]."
I never said you hated individuals for what they believe. You know better, Stormy. I posted long enough on this forum for you to know that I would never acuse you of hating individuals for what they believe. With the exception of you telling me that I should learn to read, I think you are generally respectful of others.
David Bowles and I taught together for 4 years and we had respect for each other. (Our rooms were next to each other and were on the same academic team.) We were on opposite sides on matters of faith and religion. We shared on many occasions why we came to our individual conclusions about faith, God, and religion. We both had a mutual respect for each others belief system and knew what "fueled our passion."
But you still have not answered my question. "What fuels your passion to post threads that upon close reading display your disdain for Christianity and its doctrine?"
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No, I've answered your question, you just don't want to believe it. I have no disdain. We can agree to disagree, if you like. I don't know how to prove to you that I have no disdain other than to point to this thread. If that's not enough, then I don't know what to tell you. Don't make me do the some-of-my-closest-friends-are-Christians bit.
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quote:Lalo, you've been incredibly disrespectful and insulting to people on this thread, and to their beliefs. You have actively denounced the sources of their beliefs. You have ignored their clear desire to do what is right.
And more directly relevant, you have flagrantly ignored the board rules. We are guests here, which means we follow the rules.
I've reread what I've wrote, and while I may not be respectful, I'm afraid I don't see myself as "incredibly disrespectful and insulting." But as you have this annoying habit of being right, I'll make this my last post for the night, and see how I respond tomorrow.
But read more carefully. I've not "actively denounced the sources of their beliefs" -- merely questioned why Belle would disrespect the book she claims to hold sacred by discarding certain portions of it that lessen her as a woman, yet values the tiny blurb that lessens homosexuals.
Tell me true, Fugu. Is that not hypocrisy?
I believe I've avoided direct ad hominem attacks, though I'm very aware of my lack of respect -- such as where I reminded Belle she'd already done this performance in Caleb's goodbye thread, for example, or her outrageous attempt to analogize adultery and marriage. Still. I'll sleep tonight, and see how annoyed I am by this kind of behavior tomorrow.
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I can answer why I keep coming into these threads, though I rarely start them.
I see people I care for, people I admire, people that improve the world around them get marginalized and told that their love lives are lesser than anybody else's and sinful besides, and for the life of me I can't understand why. I come into these threads hoping to hear a reason that isn't based on either a) it's icky or b) someone's God hates it. Haven't heard one yet, but I never give up hope, and if such a reason exists this is the place to find it. Until I hear it, I'll continue working towards getting recognition for consensual committed relationships, regardless of the genders involved.
I do want to thank Caleb for saying what I should have said to begin with, and much better than I would have.
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Stormy, No, you have not answered the question as to "What fuels your passion to post threads that upon close reading display your disdain for Christianity and its doctrine?"
So, I will put the question to you in a more gentle way: "What fuels your passion to post threads that upon close reading display your general disreguard for Christianity and its doctrines?"
posted
I'm not really seeing where he's been all that insulting. A bit rude maybe, but. . . Belle said dkw, who is a minister for God's sake, rationalized her beliefs. You know, I've never seen anyone use the word rationalization for anything good. I usually see it when someone is doing something they know they shouldn't, but they've made up reasons why it's okay to do. That's a hell of a lot more insulting that anything Eddie said. He said he was disgusted by her beliefs. I am, too. I'm also frightened by them. Right now, she's decided that homosexuals are sinners. I can't help but wonder who's next. You know, John Ashcroft bases his actions on what his interpretaion of the Bible, too. And he's more than willing to subvert the constitution to do it. I don't want to live in a theocracy. It hasn't worked out well for anyone else that's tried it in the long run.
No one seems to be able to rationalize a reason to legislate against gay marriage and not coffee and tea.
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Then I'd just like to say, "sometimes they're ridiculous enough to make me laugh..."
I'll follow up with "There are three places in the Bible used by anti-homosexuals to justify the whole God-Hates-Fags deal."
I think I'll finish with "Hypocrisy. Selfish, bigoted twisting of a book you claim to hold sacred. I'm truly disgusted with beliefs like yours, Belle, and disappointed that someone I could respect could also hold such twisted beliefs -- and what's worse, be blind to her own hypocrisy."
You have some good points, but you haven't learned to form a respectful argument. You don't win arguments by yelling at people. Not only that, but the tone you took and statements you have made do directly contravene the board's rules -- specifically the requirement that we show respect for other's beliefs.
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I always knew I liked you, Toretha. Your sentiments are good.
I don't have much to say that hasn't been said before, but...
Never, ever, ever will I understand how anyone can condemn someone as a sinner for their homosexuality. I don't care if God himself appeared in front of you and told you it was wrong. It's common sense, people, to understand that most gay people are not gay by choice - they just are - and they are no different from us (straight people) in terms of the respect they deserve, and the rights they should be given. So what if it's written in the Bible that homosexuality is a sin? I guess that's the definition of blind faith, to believe in something just because God or the Bible or whatever says it's true...and it's something that I've never believed in, and I doubt I ever will. I just don't like the idea of something being "written in stone", so to speak, and that is has to be true forever, no arguments. That's a really scary thought for me.
I'm not gay. I'm also not Christian, nor am I affiliated with any religion. I don't hate Christians, or any religion - that's stereotypical and it's not fair to judge a group of people because of their actions or beliefs. I might believe they are wrong, but it is NOT my right to judge them. To each his own, I say...I do, however, hate prejudice - and in my experience, most religions are prejudiced, especially against homosexuality.
But I'm not posting this to bash religions. *shrugs* I guess all I'm trying to say is that I think it is far more of a sin, by any definition, to condemn someone just because of their sexual orientation, than it is to be of that orientation in the first place.
That's my take on it. I hope I haven't offended anyone.
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Kranky, you can ask me that a thousand more times and the answer will be the same as the one I just gave. If that answer is not satisfactory to you, then I don't know what to tell you.
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Stormy, No, you have not answered the question as to "What fuels your passion to post threads that upon close reading display your disdain for Christianity and its doctrine?"
So, I will put the question to you in a more gentle way: "What fuels your passion to post threads that upon close reading display your general disreguard for Christianity and its doctrines?"
posted
Ahh, he forgot the hate the belief, love the believer cover his ass statement. I get it.
By the way, the arguments are laughable, not the arguer.
I live near the "God Hates Fags" guy and I'm tired of him at funerals. And if my niece dies of AIDS before God strikes him dead, the bastard better not show up. And just because Belle "loves the sinner" isn't she basically saying the same thing? I mean, God hates the unrepentant sinner. They are cast out and all. Or not let in. So, what exactly is the problem? Is the wording of it too harsh? Should that be one of those things that if it can't be said, it should be done?
quote: "What fuels your passion to post threads that upon close reading display your general disreguard for Christianity and its doctrines?"
Why do some Christians feel the need to disregard non-Christian beliefs and legislate against things that are none of their business?
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quote:Firstly, "Good lord, Belle, you're doing that I-get-the-last-word-and-run-away thing again?"
Yes, Fugu. If you've read Caleb's goodbye thread (where he came out), you'll remember that Belle came in, denounced Caleb as a sinner, then declared she was being persecuted by the angry responses to her claim. She made one last post declaring her beliefs, again as before with no reasoning behind it, and said she would leave Hatrack forever.
It's annoying the first time around.
quote:Then I'd just like to say, "sometimes they're ridiculous enough to make me laugh..."
How very intellectually dishonest of you, Fugu. I expected more.
Here's the quote in its entirety, and what it responded. Note that I'm always careful to address each response to the section of her post it belongs with -- I have trouble understanding how you could become confused over it.
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Adultery can happen between two people who love each other and are committed to each other, and just happen to be married to someone else. Does that make adultery okay in this case? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Heh. Jesus. Yes, Belle. Allowing a loving, committed, monogamous couple to marry each other is exactly like adultery -- the exact opposite of what marriage is all about.
Heh. Sometimes the arguments are extreme enough to make me wince, sometimes they're ridiculous enough to make me laugh...
Here, Belle was trying to analogize marriage and adultery, so desperate was she to associate homosexuality with sinfulness. I was not, contrary to how you selectively edited that quote, calling conservatives "ridiculous enough to make me laugh."
quote:I'll follow up with "There are three places in the Bible used by anti-homosexuals to justify the whole God-Hates-Fags deal."
Yes.
What's your point, again?
quote:I think I'll finish with "Hypocrisy. Selfish, bigoted twisting of a book you claim to hold sacred. I'm truly disgusted with beliefs like yours, Belle, and disappointed that someone I could respect could also hold such twisted beliefs -- and what's worse, be blind to her own hypocrisy."
And you never responded to my question above. I'll put it in italics for you.
But read more carefully. I've not "actively denounced the sources of their beliefs" -- merely questioned why Belle would disrespect the book she claims to hold sacred by discarding certain portions of it that lessen her as a woman, yet values the tiny blurb that lessens homosexuals.
Tell me true, Fugu. Is that not hypocrisy?
You never answered my question. To me, anti-homosexual stances are vile enough standing alone, but they're often written off to religious fundamentalism. Belle, in her post above, proved that she was picking and choosing which parts of the Bible to believe in -- the parts that lessened her as a woman, she discarded. The parts that lessened homosexuals, she treasures, despite the countless arguments Hatrack has had over the subject.
That is "selfish, bigoted twisting of a book [she] claim[s] to hold sacred." I AM "truly disgusted with beliefs like [hers]" -- if someone is determined to keep homosexuals as a sub-class of citizens, I'd prefer that they have more reasoning behind it than to claim their gods don't like it.
And I am disappointed in her. Terribly disappointed. She's not an unintelligent woman, and I've enjoyed reading many of her posts. It hurts that someone who I could almost consider a friend could hold such beliefs; strangely enough, it hurts more to think that Adrian wouldn't even be able to claim the religious fundamentalism defense.
quote:You have some good points, but you haven't learned to form a respectful argument. You don't win arguments by yelling at people. Not only that, but the tone you took and statements you have made do directly contravene the board's rules -- specifically the requirement that we show respect for other's beliefs.
I'm very aware how to form a respectful argument, but I have no respect for opinions thinly cloaked in religion's mantle. Note that, contrary to the quotes (and misquotes -- shame on you) above, you have yet to point out an instance of an ad hominem attack I've made.
I respect religious beliefs, though I'll probably disagree with many of them. Moose, for example, is very religious and one of Hatrack's treasured. What's the difference behind him and Adrian? He's not trying to relegate homosexuals to a sub-class of citizen based on shady, contrary religious beliefs.
I would hope you wouldn't have respect for any position that supports such an end, be it relegating homosexuals, minorities, or women to any sub-class of citizenry.
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Lalo mocked Belle. You may think what she said was mockable (I don't), but that does not give one a right to do it, particularly in contravention of board rules.
Belle expressly takes the God Does Not Hate Fags position. I am absolutely certain that she believes with all her heart that God loves everyone, including homosexual people.
Her arguments are not ridiculous. Her arguments are ridiculous if you are operating off a different set of assumptions than she is, but this is not the same. As those assumptions are religious in nature, one would be hard pressed to not view this as insulting someone's religion.
The last bit I posted above is, though perhaps the most strongly worded, the most okay of the whole, at least as far the forum rules thing. However, I am not so sure it would be viewed this way by others, for instance the Cards. And they get to set the rules here, like it or not.
I have spent extensive time on this forum defending the rights of homosexual people to participate openly and freely in our society, and I will continue to do so (Ryan, any response on my question about marrying outside one's religion?). As much as I vehemently disagree with Belle's stated position, she has done her best to both phrase it appropriately, and I also believe has nothing but the best intentions (I do hope that "rationalize" was just poor wording). As such, and particularly given the board remit, she should be treated with respect, just as every other member of the board, and of society, should, while they participate honestly.
I have been known to be scornful of arguments myself, but I try to restrict myself to being scornful of arguments, not beliefs, and not people. Lalo crossed the line considerably.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
I've never seen Caleb's goodbye thread actually so could someone post a link to it cause I can't find it.
Posts: 3446 | Registered: Jul 2002
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quote: I wrote a response to Squicky, but I think Ralphie would vegemite me if I took after her bobo.
Wha?
Squicky's fair game, Kat. I mean, yeah I'm all over that boy like white on rice, but I'm perfectly fine with you getting in a flame war with him.
And Eddie - fugu is totally right. Being passionate and being catty while hiding it behind righteous indignation are too different things. If you can't write a post without red in your eye, stop posting until you can.
Posts: 7600 | Registered: Jan 2001
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posted
Caleb mentioned the "God let me see with your heart" prayer. Jeniwren thought she'd try it. All I have to say is "be careful what you wish for."
When I was religious, I prayed such a prayer and earnestly sought such a path. It led me away from the "faith of my Fathers." And to a deeper love and understanding for every human I come across.
Posts: 3141 | Registered: Apr 2000
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quote:I have been known to be scornful of arguments myself, but I try to restrict myself to being scornful of arguments, not beliefs, and not people. Lalo crossed the line considerably.
I wish I could be scornful of Belle's arguments. Unfortunately, the only one offered is that she claims God is against homosexuality -- how would you suggest one argue against her relegation of homosexuals to sub-citizens without necessarily pointing out the obnoxious nature and futile circumlocution of such God-told-me-so arguments?
I might also point out that while I've been far from respectful, I've been far from disrespectful, too. I'm also growing rather tired of your penchant for ignoring -- or worse, misconstruing -- what I write in favor of your own argument. You've always been honest before; I don't expect such behavior from you.
Posts: 3293 | Registered: Jul 2002
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quote: Caleb mentioned the "God let me see with your heart" prayer. Jeniwren thought she'd try it. All I have to say is "be careful what you wish for."
When I was religious, I prayed such a prayer and earnestly sought such a path. It led me away from the "faith of my Fathers." And to a deeper love and understanding for every human I come across.
Wow! This, in the end, was my final prayer, and I've come to the conclusion that if there is a God at all, he doesn't endorse any of the religions that claim him as their source.
Philosophy, thy name is Irony.
Posts: 6394 | Registered: Dec 1999
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"I might also point out that while I've been far from respectful, I've been far from disrespectful, too."
Well, no. You have, in fact, been disrespectful, and Belle doesn't deserve your hostile sanctimony. Cut it out.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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See, I *do* actually talk with people on the other side of the aisle (so to speak), and I see that you guys, at least here on Hatrack--but then, who am I posting to, anyway?-- really are very nice and loving people who really are able to hate the sin but love the sinner. I recognize that in you dwells a spirit of compassion. And I say that in both the literal and figurative sense. I wrote my post because I believe if a truth is spoken, and people do listen, that eventually they will act on the realization of that truth. ![[Grumble]](graemlins/grumble.gif)
Stepping on my hopes and dreams. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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