quote:And the bigotry of our society is illustrated by how selectively we practice tolerance.
Yeah. This is a horrible thing. But you know what? If some of the things I hear said in my ward about other groups (religious and otherwise, joking and otherwise) are any indication, we don't have much room to talk. It makes me sad to have to say that, but it is true.
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Thing is, magson, Jews and Muslims both experience hatred much more frequently than Mormons. Both groups are in the public eye right now, so they may receive more publicity than the Mormons, but on a day-to-day basis, currently, we're a loved minority in comparison.
The two Mormons who were arrested-- they broke the law. They should have been arrested.
Garments cannot be defiled by ANYONE except their wearer. The covenants of the temple cannot be broken, slandered, or even touched by anyone except those who've taken them.
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Technically, you are right, Scott R on all accounts.
But I'm trying to imagine how it would feel to walk past those people doing that. It would be pretty humiliating. It isn't an emotional experience I yearn after. I'm not suprised that a couple of people tried to stop it.
I imagine those two men won't be given a very stiff sentence.
We probably won't see it in the news, not because the news condones religious bigotry against Mormons, but because the local news didn't report. But why would that be? Well, first off, it is old news here in Utah. They already got their big media break last April with the whole main street plaza snafu. This happens every general conference. And secondly, the best way to silence a troll is to not listen to it or give others a chance to see its statement.
So while we may want to see someone decry the behavior, I'm actually glad that it gets little coverage. For the most part, it is a very small minority of people that do this, and why give them any press time at all?
I would like to contrast that behavior with the reception that the Mormon Tabernacle Choir gets everywhere it goes. Heck and darnation, they are even called "America's Choir".
No worries, people. Just live as Christ taught us and love even our enemies. Imagine what must be in their hearts to enact such behavior. It is a sorrowful thing, truly, because instead of joy and love they have fear and hatred.
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I just wonder what the protesters actually hope to accomplish. Do they think that yelling at people who are coming out of the Conference Center is going to suddenly convince them of the "error" of their ways?
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Are they actually trying to cinvince the members of the church that we are wrong? If so, I don't think they have much success. Has anyone ever heard of a member actually listening to these people? I think that most of the people that would bother attending conference in person aren't the type to easily give up on their religion. So are they maybe trying to convince the non-members who pass by? [EDIT: I see that Jon Boy said about the same thing]
quote:But I'm trying to imagine how it would feel to walk past those people doing that. It would be pretty humiliating. It isn't an emotional experience I yearn after. I'm not surprised that a couple of people tried to stop it.
I was there Sunday morning, and I walked by the guy doing it. Scott is right - sacred things cannot be hurt by those who mock them, they can only hurt themselves.
I'm not surprised by the people who tried to stop them, though, because just seeing it gave me a visceral blow of hurt and anger to the gut. We walked away as quickly as we could, and I had to clasp my hands together to stop the shaking. The people are just anger-filled morons looking for attention, but it still hurt me. Walking away is the best solution I could think of.
I saw a better one.
After the conference, next to the ten or so professional, hateful protesters (they had printed signs and pre-printed anti literature), there were half a dozen pairs of teenagers holding up large banners with mottoes on it like "The Church is true" and "Jesus said love everyone" on them, and they were singing hymns as loudly as they could. You couldn't even hear the anti people with their megaphones. I thought that response was delightful.
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Someone did a similar thing at the April conference. A few young men (probably still in high school, I think) stood in front of a protester and started yelling, "The Church is true!" It was awesome.
Katie, you were in Salt Lake, yet we didn't have a get-together? I've got that Jamba Juice in my freezer for you, remember?
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I know! I was there for, literally, less than 48 hours. My best friend had a baby, and another friend took me to conference, and that about covered my time. I didn't announce it because I didn't have time to see anyone. The Jamba Juice is safe for now, but it's in my sights. Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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Someone in my seminary class said that one of his friends walked up to a protester, pulled out a pen and a piece of paper, and said "What's your name? I'm gonna do the baptism for the dead for you when you die" just to piss off the protester. Probably not the best choice for him to make, but I thought it was kinda funny.
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quote:Someone did a similar thing at the April conference. A few young men (probably still in high school, I think) stood in front of a protester and started yelling, "The Church is true!" It was awesome.
Give 'em some of their own medicine, eh? How Christian...
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Too bad, Katie. You'll have to make a trip to Happy Valley some other time.
Tres, "their own medicine" would have involved telling them they're going to hell while holding a sign saying that their religion's founder was inspired by Satan.
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Have you ever been to a football game where the home crowd yelled their chants real loud when the away team came on the field? Would you consider that a way of making peace with the away team? Do you think it's designed to make the away team less angry?
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This isn't a football game, where you agree to battle for a winner. This is like people standing on the sidewalk outside your door and shouting nasty things about your sister during her birthday party.
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So if I went to the Vatican, desecrated some objects that are holy to Catholics, and said that Catholics worship the devil, you would condone my behavior, but if someone walked out of St. Peter's Cathedral and started singing hymns to drown me out, you would call that person un-Christian?
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quote: Give 'em some of their own medicine, eh? How Christian...
He's right. This is not the way we should act, as hard as it is to do, we are still supposed to turn the other cheek and let God deal with those who do these things. I suppose the most we could do would be to ask them to stop. I think that in one conference they said something about leaving the protesters alone, also in the D&C( I think) it says something about forgiving your enemies until the third or fourth time and letting God take care of it.
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I'm not saying that turning the other cheek is not the ideal behavior, nor am I saying that trying to drown out protesters with a positive message is a good idea. It just cracked me up to see three teenage boys stand in front of a protester and drown him out by yelling, "The Church is true!"
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quote:This isn't a football game, where you agree to battle for a winner.
Then why are they using football game fan tactics? Don't tell me they aren't, because I've been to many a football game.
quote:So if I went to the Vatican, desecrated some objects that are holy to Catholics, and said that Catholics worship the devil, you would condone my behavior, but if someone walked out of St. Peter's Cathedral and started singing hymns to drown me out, you would call that person un-Christian?
Who said anything about condoning anything?
quote:It just cracked me up to see three teenage boys stand in front of a protester and drown him out by yelling, "The Church is true!"
Yes, but what cracks you up, they most likely consider hatred. And what you consider hatred, probably cracks them up. There are probably a fair number of people out there who see a sign comparing Mormons to the devil and think, "Yeah, that's awesome! Serves those Mormons right!"
Well, you didn't make any comment about the protesters, but you called the Mormons who reacted to the protesters "un-Christian." It seems you don't have a problem with the protesters.
quote:Yes, but what cracks you up, they most likely consider hatred. And what you consider hatred, probably cracks them up.
Tres, you weren't there. You really don't know the situation, it seems. These people travel across the country to gather outside of general conference and express their hatred of the LDS Church. This isn't an issue of perspective; it's an issue of respect.
quote:There are probably a fair number of people out there who see a sign comparing Mormons to the devil and think, "Yeah, that's awesome! Serves those Mormons right!"
There are probably a fair number of people out there who see a sign calling for the extermination of the Jews and think, "Yeah, that's awesome! Serves those Jews right!" What's your point, exactly?
[ October 07, 2003, 03:07 PM: Message edited by: Jon Boy ]
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Some fools try to live Christ-like, but find forgiveness, humility, and love just too difficult. Its much easier to be Christ-like by fighting Satan. So they gather their weapons and march down to what they have been told is Satan, and they scream and shout.
Their Satan may be mormons, or it may be anti-mormon bigots. Sure, the anti-bigots are better than the bigots, but neither is facing their Satan with love, peace, or forgiveness. (Although, the anti-bigots have a big step up in the humility department than the bigots do.)
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quote:Maybe you need to see it happen before you declare in what spirit they are doing it.
Perhaps. Or maybe I've seen enough similar sorts of things to have a good idea. It's hard to say.
quote:Well, you didn't make any comment about the protesters, but you called the Mormons who reacted to the protesters "un-Christian."
Well, we are already in agreement on how Christian the protesters' actions were.
quote:There are probably a fair number of people out there who see a sign calling for the extermination of the Jews and think, "Yeah, that's awesome! Serves those Jews right!" What's your point, exactly?
That I think you may be acting in the same fashion, without realizing it.
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I've officialy appointed Dan_Raven as my mouth piece in this thread. It seems the best way to protest a non-violent campaing is even better non-violence.
quote: I'm not saying that turning the other cheek is not the ideal behavior, nor am I saying that trying to drown out protesters with a positive message is a good idea. It just cracked me up to see three teenage boys stand in front of a protester and drown him out by yelling, "The Church is true!"
I agree it is funny, but not very productive. My seminary teacher(I realize that mentioning my seminary teacher probably makes me sound young and naive, but they do have a lot of useful knowledge) a few years ago told us that contention is of the devil and we shouldn't try to fight with these people or have Bible-bashes because when you attack someones beliefs they aren't about to try to understand yours. Anyway, thanks for clearing that up, I sorta misread what was being said.
quote: I wish I could have been there to see it, that's hilarious! They should do that at every conference.
On second thought, that's not such a good idea for the same reason listed above.
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quote:I was there Sunday morning, and I walked by the guy doing it. Scott is right - sacred things cannot be hurt by those who mock them, they can only hurt themselves. ... Walking away is the best solution I could think of.
You did your community great honor, katharina. We see it.
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Tres, the big difference here is that these kids were not tearing anyone down. I was pleased that they weren't afraid to shout out a positive message about their beliefs. I would be "acting in the same fashion" if I cheered on the people who were arrested for assaulting the protesters.
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Tres, I don't think any disapproval for the protesters is coming through at all, while the disapproval for the respondents to the protesters is quite clear.
Maybe that's the sticking point here? If you are condeming some people, condemnation for the others left unmentioned isn't automatically implied?
Added: It's amazing how a compliment from CT turns me into pumpkin mush.
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I was gonna compliment you for the same reason, but if you've turned into pumpkin mush, what comes next?
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First off. I didn't see the article you were posting because this idiot was going off about the "flaming commie lib". If you bother to look through his site you can find it down at the bottom. Just so you can avoid the pain of hearing this moron spout.
The fact of the matter is, these protesters are idiots. So what? Is this news to anyone? Also they some how managed to aquire a set religious clothing. It is theirs unless it is stolen. They can do with it whatever they want. Also, the fact that they are protected to say whatever they want also protects mormons. I find 2 Nephi along with the biblical theories on Cain utterly rediculous and extremely racist. Christians are allowed to preach that blacks were the first murders and that Anahuac are nothing more then degenrate hebrews.
It's not a philosophy I like, but the cost of preventing that freedom of speech would be the prevention of all freedom of speech. That price is too high.
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quote:For none of these iniquities come of the Lord; for he doeth that which is good among the children of men; and he doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men; and he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile.
That's 2nd Nephi 26 verse 33.
While the Book of Mormon may feasibly be considered a false travesty of scripture, and a historical laughing stock, it is anything but racist. (Note that I do not consider it to be a travesty, a laughing stock, nor racist.)
Not that I want to be contentious or anything. . .
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Frankly, I think reacting to them in a dignified manner is much better than sticking it back at them, even if the counter protesting is nothing more than shouting hymns or threatening baptism for the dead. I understand what those two men did, but that doesn't mean I think they reacted appropriately.
The best thing we can do is simply walk past. Maybe, to keep our own spirit, we can sing a hymn together. Not to drown out the protesters, but only to keep ourselves from getting distracted from the message we had just heard. If we catch their eye, smile at them. Be kind.
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Svid, no one is saying that the protestors are doing something illegal. I'm glad they have freedom of speech. Everyone should. The point here is that they're giant jerks. Having the right to do something doesn't mean you can do it without earning disapproval.
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I don't get the undergarment thing--I think the idea is a little silly, to be honest--but it's a shame there are people who would try to desecrate something you consider sacred. I'm glad you folks are handling this better than we did the rock-throwing incident in Italy (back in the '50's).
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Sometime back in the 1950's, some missionaries from the churches of Christ got themselves attacked with rocks in Italy. I don't know all the details, and it's possible that they provoked it--a good number of us have a knack for making people angry, and it was worse back then.
A sizable number of people were outraged and suggested we go clean the Italians' clocks, or else go to the State Department and ask for retribution against Italy for permitting such things. It was a long time before cooler heads calmed people down. It gave rabid anti-Catholic O.C. Lambert a shot in the arm, too. (Lambert's Catholicism Against Itself reads like a huge Chick tract, and could be where Chick got his information. His only redeeming qualities, to my knowledge, were his sincerity and his attempt to take down Joseph McCarthy--since, as a Catholic, McCarthy was himself involved in an anti-American conspiracy. )
Sounds like you folks have learned to handle yourselves better. Posts: 1041 | Registered: Feb 2002
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You know, when I opened this, I expected it to be about the national defense of marriage week. My bad.
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