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» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » If You Came Across a Snake Eating a Frog, What Would You Do? (Page 2)

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Author Topic: If You Came Across a Snake Eating a Frog, What Would You Do?
Noemon
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::bump::

Nothing new to add, but I really enjoyed this thread, and it was getting too close to its expiration date for my taste

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skrika03
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Anne Kate believes in killing plants but not animals. [Razz]

quote:
While feeding our class snake last week
It took me a minute to realize that the class was not eating snake, it posessed a snake which it was feeding.

I definitely would have watched the snake eat the frog from a respectful distance. If a humongous giant were watching me eat, I think it might ruin my digestion.

Something really horrible happened with a glue trap at the house my husband grew up at. The mouse almost escaped, leaving a piece of itself stuck to the paper. But it bled to death.

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Telperion the Silver
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I would have done the same thing.
I had a pet snake. A boa, about 6 feet long. His name was Spot. Very friendly and liked to cuddle. We would feed him in a separate cage, so that he would get used to being moved to it to feed and not learn to snap at us when we went into his living cage to pick him up. Watching him feed on rats was very interesting... a bit more gruesome than a frog...kinda scary the first few times. Watching our cute snake becomeing this killing machine... wow.

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Avadaru
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Telp, I have a boa as well (still a baby, about 2 feet long). I absolutely hate feeding her, because I also keep rats and mice as pets. Someone mentioned earlier about "snake-eating-mice" - you'd be surprised at the damage a mouse or rat can inflict on a snake. My snake was attacked and bitten by her prey several times, so now I feed her "stunned" mice that can't hurt her (which sounds awful, but once you've seen a snake kill and eat a live mouse, feeding a stunned one seems much more humane.) At the pet store where I work, someone dumped a 7-foot boa on our doorstep, tied up in a pillowcase. She is covered in horrible scars and bite marks - someone was dumping live rats in her cage. The poor thing won't let anyone come near her without striking (and who could blame her??)

Snakes are my favorite animal, and if I found one in the wild that was eating, I probably wouldn't watch, since I have to see it weekly already, but I would respectfully leave him alone. Snakes do NOT like being watched while they eat, because they are completely defenseless from predators. Stressing them out during and after eating can lead them to regurgitate their food.

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fiazko
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For the snake lovers.
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Belle
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If a snake is non-poisonous and represents no real danger to my children, then it's welcome to live on my property. My kids have been taught to leave wild animals alone, whether it seems hurt or what they are never to pick it up, but come get us.

My mom's cat kills moles constantly. There's one outside on the porch nearly every day. I try to get them up and throw their carcasses far away so the puppies don't eat them. I don't want them to get sick.

It does seem cruel that well-fed pet cats kill. They don't need the food, they don't even eat the things they kill. They just kill for the sport. But, they're instinctive carnivores, and they don't really KNOW that their next meal is coming from me, so I can't really blame them too much.

Had I come across the scenario in Noemon's first post, I would have walked away. I wouldn't have interfered, because I would figure I'd do as much harm as good to the frog trying to save it and risk getting myself bitten as well. Plus, the snake's gotta eat. I wouldn't have particularly enjoyed watching it, I don't think but maybe so.

Great thread. I'm glad you saved it.

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Lyrhawn
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I'd have eaten the snake.


That'll teach it a lesson.

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romanylass
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I have a camera phone that I always carry, so I'd take lots of pictures. I'd print them out, bind them into a book, and have the kids write a paper.
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Kettricken
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I would have watched, I’m fascinated by animals’ behaviour in the wild. Feeding is one of the most interesting and important aspects of that. Whether it was an insect emerging from a pupa, a predator catching its prey or a bird displaying to attract a mate I would be interested.

On TV we see the spectacular animals, for example lions hunting, but less spectacular animals are just as interesting. When you see a cheater chasing a gazelle on a wildlife program, which do you cheer for?

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KarlEd
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I'd have watched without even thinking of saving the frog.

On a side note, it doesn't seem to strange to me that it was eating the frog from behind. If the snake isn't a constrictor (i.e. kills it prey by squeezing it to death), it probably doesn't have the luxury of eating head-first prey. Most of the prey it's gonna catch will be fleeing, so the tail end is what it will grasp, then, by the time the prey is actually beyond the point of escape the snake is probably too committed to change ends unless the grip is especially awkward. (Just my theory, not being a herpetologist or anything. [Wink] )

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BelladonnaOrchid
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Hmmm....this raises the question of what one would do when coming across a snake eating an elephant?
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Enigmatic
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Once at the parents' house we saw a hawk that had attacked and downed a bluejay. This was at the birdfeeder in the backyard, about 10 feet away from the window. We watched as the hawk plucked feathers out of the bluejay, which was cawwing loudly. The interesting thing is that other bluejays would divebomb the hawk during this process, not exactly attacking it, but swooping past quickly as if trying to make it flinch away.

Mom wanted to go down and scare the hawk away, but Dad and I said "Hawk's gotta eat too." The bluejay did actually get away after about 5 minutes or so. It seemed to have lost a lot of feathers by then, so I'm not sure how well it did longer term.

--Enigmatic

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Noemon
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quote:
Hmmm....this raises the question of what one would do when coming across a snake eating an elephant?
I'm still going to go with "run like hell while it was still occupied with the elephant".
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BelladonnaOrchid
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Boa Constrictor Eating an Elephant

...from The Little Prince by Antoine de Saint-Exupery

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The Reader
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I would have watched the snake eat, from a distance. I find this stuff interesting.

About two months a go, a litter of kittens my parent's cat had were just big enough to hunt, and they did. They caught a small bird. By the time I found them playing with the bird, they were well into hurting it, so I let it play out. If I had found the kittens earlier, I would tried to let the bird go.

The kittens were dragging the bird all over the yard. I was following the kittens in their movement when my 4-year old sister came to watch. She reached in to free the bird, but I held her back because I was afraid the kittens might hurt her, or the bird might be diseased. I convinced her to not touch the kittens or the bird, but she continued to watch. I didn't have a problem with that. I think it's good that she was interested.

I figured that the killing wasn't worth watching any more because it was getting dark, and I couldn't see the ground so I wanted to leave. My sister stayed to watch, so I couldn't leave her there because she might try to free the bird again. She seemed concerned for the bird, which she should have been because it means she feels empathy, but I told her that cats do this kind of thing because they are animals that hunt naturally, and it wasn't wrong for cats to do this. She understood what was happening at that point, and became fascinated with the process.

It was very dark outside at this point, and Mom wanted her inside. I tried to get her inside, but she kept going outside to watch. I think she still felt bad for the bird, but she knew there was nothing she could or should do. She just wanted to see nature happen.

The next day, I found the bird half-eaten by the swingset. Apparently the kittens had their fill.

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KarlEd
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quote:
The next day, I found the bird half-eaten by the swingset.
I'd be careful of letting any children around that swingset. [Eek!]
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Goody Scrivener
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I didn't realize that this was an old thread bumped at first... I was going to post a comment about how all the nominally freaky animal stuff seems to follow Noemon (or he's following the nominally freaky animal stuff, perhaps...)
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Farmgirl
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[ROFL]

(it took a second or two for my brain to figure it out, KarlEd -- but I finally did!)

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The Reader
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It is a docile old swingset that is only three years younger than me. It is 18. It has never harmed a child unless that child repeatedly provoked it, like a dog, and that has happened very rarely. I'm sure it felt bad after having harmed a child because it had only acted on instict (i.e., tipping to one side when someone swings too high). It is probably the most trustworthy swingset I have ever know. It always makes sure the kids don't into the street. I would trust it with my wallet.

I doubt it ate the bird, as KarlEd suggested. I think it was probably the demonic rocking horse that sits near the swingset.

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Stan the man
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[Smile]

Yep, I would probably watch too.
<-----wonders what snake tastes like. Probably like chicken....

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Ryuko
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I was about to come here and say the same thing I said almost two years ago...

quote:
I would have watched. I don't think the thought of robbing the snake of its meal would have even crossed my mind..
Except less intelligently. I was just going to say, "Watch." ...I wonder what that says about me?
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Noemon
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It's been a while since we've had a thread purge, but I'm bumping this just to be on the safe side.

I'm delighted to find that this thread is still around, by the way. As I was driving to work this morning I was thinking about the original incident, but on reading my initial post and my subsequent "additional detail" posts I realized just how much of the experience I'd forgotten.

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ketchupqueen
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Heh, this is my first time reading this.

In response to the original question, I'd probably look away, and then a few minutes later tell the wide-mouth frog joke.

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Little_Doctor
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How about a Snake regurgitating a Hippo?


WARNING: This is an actual video.

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BlackBlade
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My wife owns a ball python, and she feeds it a mouse about every 3-4 weeks. I grew up watching documentaries and I always remember National Geographic ones where they would say, "We all wanted to save the fawn from freezing to death, but we must never interefere with the course of nature." Initially I was shocked and it hurt me, but that turned into admiration for thinking rationally rather then letting emotion guide their work.

I saw the cruelty in nature, and realized that it was balance, and no creature was given greater preference over another.

The snake has every right to eat, as the frog does. Frogs eat bugs, why dont we stop them from doing that? Because we sympathize with frogs, but we often find bugs hard to humanize and sympathize with. If there was a plant that could make noises, I think we would have a much harder time eating it.

We had a Black Lab named Pepper, when I lived in Malaysia and she was the best dog I have ever seen. She could swim and play fetch without ANY training whatsoever (she was a laborador retreiver, go figure) she barked at the cats that would try to go through our garbage just outside our yard and the cats learned to ignore her.

One day I went out into the yard and found a cat dead, and completely disemboweled. I was so glad I had watched my documentaries because I handled the sight quite well. I carefully removed the cat's body from our yard. The next week I found another cat similarly mutilated. I read up on it and it was my opinion Pepper had a bloodlust since tasting cat blood. She was not any more agressive towards us at all, but her annoyance at cats had turned to rage. I startled a cat once and as the cat tried to get away from me it mistakenly jumped into the yard where Pepper was waiting with teeth bare. The cat was dead in seconds. Pepper never ate the cats, just killed them in a very vicious way.

Should we have punished our dog for acting on its instincts? She never once harmed a human being, and she clearly thought the cats needed to be killed, she was not eating them.

To this day I am not sure if I had a greater responsibility to protect the stray cats that ventured into our yard.

I am glad you left the snake alone Noemon, though I am very suprised it chose to eat the frog from the legs up rather than head first. Snakes usually prefer to eat head first as it is much easier than feet first. The fact the frogs leg turned brown suggest the sname was using a "hemotoxin" rather than a "neurotoxin" but I could be wrong.

Be careful with snakes, there is no sure fire way to identify venomous and non venomous. There are some characteristics that MANY venomous snakes share, but there is nothing universal.

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BlackBlade
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quote:
Originally posted by Little_Doctor:
How about a Snake regurgitating a Hippo?


WARNING: This is an actual video.

sorry for double posting. That video makes me sad becaues the people obviously antagonized the snake so much that it vomited its food so that it could be mobile again and get away. The stupid thing is the snake most likely will not reeat (if thats a word) the hippo but will most likely leave and kill something else, possibly a person this time.
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Little_Doctor
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quote:
Originally posted by BlackBlade:
quote:
Originally posted by Little_Doctor:
How about a Snake regurgitating a Hippo?


WARNING: This is an actual video.

sorry for double posting. That video makes me sad becaues the people obviously antagonized the snake so much that it vomited its food so that it could be mobile again and get away. The stupid thing is the snake most likely will not reeat (if thats a word) the hippo but will most likely leave and kill something else, possibly a person this time.
Normally, I'd agree with you, but there could have ben any number of reasons those people were trying to get the snake to regurgitate. If this took place in a zoo, for example. They would have to move the snake back to it's area and dispose of the Hippo's body before people arrived to look at them. That could have been traumatizing for little kids.
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BlackBlade
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Does it look like they are in a zoo?
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Little_Doctor
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I'm not saying it is definetly a zoo. But we can't possibly prove that it isn't. I was just using it as an example anyway.
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neo-dragon
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I would have watched. I don't think that I would even consider saving the frog. It's nature. It's the food chain. It's the circle of life. Whatever you want to call it. Everything lives by killing something else. The snake isn't doing anything wrong.

*edit*
You know, I feel silly. I only just realized how old this thread is. And here I thought it was a new discussion! [Big Grin]

[ August 30, 2006, 02:51 AM: Message edited by: neo-dragon ]

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Tatiana
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People who say "it's life" would you try to save a human from a predator? If so, how is that different? Humans are a species whose population is out of control, they're damaging the ecosystems they inhabit, by every good game management policy, we should be trying to limit their population. Would you try to rescue a human child from a mountain lion?
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Lisa
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See, I saw this subject line, and all I could think of was:

"If you give a snake a frog...
... he's probably going to want a rat to wash it down."

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Noemon
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What if you teach a snake to frog though? What then?
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theCrowsWife
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You'll run out of blankets?
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BlackBlade
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quote:
Originally posted by Tatiana:
People who say "it's life" would you try to save a human from a predator? If so, how is that different? Humans are a species whose population is out of control, they're damaging the ecosystems they inhabit, by every good game management policy, we should be trying to limit their population. Would you try to rescue a human child from a mountain lion?

Many people do not consider the life of an animal equal to the life of a human being Tatiana. You would have to address that belief first.

If you could save the life of just one woman, who was the least important of all human beings (not a bad person mind you, just unimportant in the grand scheme of things) but at the cost of every single animal species that human being could handle losing. What would you choose?

I think that largely determines whether you would save a human being from being eaten by say a starving mountain lion.

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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Tatiana:
People who say "it's life" would you try to save a human from a predator? If so, how is that different? Humans are a species whose population is out of control, they're damaging the ecosystems they inhabit, by every good game management policy, we should be trying to limit their population. Would you try to rescue a human child from a mountain lion?

<shrug> People are people. Animals are animals. It amazes me how many people are losing that distinction nowadays.
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Libbie
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I definitely would have pitied the frog, but left nature to take its course. My husband and I have a couple of pet snakes (corns), and we love them dearly. We hope to breed snakes some day, too, but only if we can be sure we could find them really great homes first.

Putting the frog out of its misery might have been more merciful for the frog, but the snake may have then left it without eating it. Many wild snakes will not eat prey that isn't obviously alive up until it's mostly swallowed, and many wild snakes, especially youngsters (which this one sounded like) have to go a month or more with no meal.

I'm not sure what kind of snake you encountered, but it sounds like it may have been a garter snake or a similar species. We have few poisonous snakes in the USA that aren't easily recognizable. (I'm assuming you're from the USA because of the way you spell - color rather than colour. If you're not, I apologize!) The motion of the jaws on the frog's leg that you described may have been pumping venom, or it may have been normal snake-jaw action. Many kinds of snake use this funny "walking jaw" move to edge forward on their prey without letting go. It's especially useful when the prey is still struggling - and then once it's died or calmed down, they use the "flowing" motion you described.

Or, it could have been a rear-fanged snake like a whipsnake or a catsnake. They do have a very mild venom that comes from small fangs in the back area of the upper jaw. I only know of Asian rear-fanged snakes, but there certainly could be some in North America!

The fact that the snake didn't try to coil around the prey leads me to believe it was a garter of some kind. Most other common snakes would have coiled up and constricted their prey.

The fact that it ate the frog legs-first makes me think it was still a baby. It's unusual for wild snakes to do that. Most will wait until their prey is subdued, then let go of it and swallow it head-first.

Somebody mentioned the fighting mice - it's true that rodents can fight very hard against snakes, and a lot of snakes in the wild and as pets lose their lives due to bites, scratches, etc. It's not a bad idea to feed pre-killed prey to captive snakes to prevent this. Even lab mice can get some fight in them and your pet snake will be toast. We feed our guys frozen, thawed rodents that have been humanely killed (by somebody else. I love rodents, too, and I wouldn't want to do the deed myself!)

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Libbie
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quote:

It does seem cruel that well-fed pet cats kill. They don't need the food, they don't even eat the things they kill. They just kill for the sport. But, they're instinctive carnivores, and they don't really KNOW that their next meal is coming from me, so I can't really blame them too much.


Plus, it's probably good for their mental health to act out their natural role. It stinks for the poor innocent prey critters that are then left without being eaten, but at least it does help keep their populations down. [Frown]
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Noemon
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The snake's having been young makes more sense than anything I've been able to think of to explain the fact that it ate the frog legs first.

I'm relatively sure that it wasn't poisonous; this took place in the woods in Yellow Springs, Ohio, and there are only three species of venomous snake native to the region--the copperhead and two varieties of rattler. I'm familiar enough with all three of those to be able to recognize them when I come across them in the wild, and this snake wasn't any of them. Given that, I'd say that the jaw motions that I observed were some form of the "walking jaw" thing you're describing.

I didn't know that most snakes were given to constricting their prey, by the way; that's really interesting!

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Libbie
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quote:
Originally posted by Little_Doctor:
How about a Snake regurgitating a Hippo?


WARNING: This is an actual video.

That was UNBELIEVABLY DISGUSTING.
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Libbie
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quote:


I didn't know that most snakes were given to constricting their prey, by the way; that's really interesting! [/QB]

Well, most snakes in North America, anyhow! We have more colubrids here (constrictors) than venomous snakes.

Although, my corn snakes are constrictors, and they never constrict. Maybe it's all about personal snakely preference.

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Libbie
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Here's a site that lists all the snake species of Ohio, btw...if you still remember what he looked like, maybe you can identify him!

http://www.ohiodnr.com/wildlife/resources/reptiles/reptiles.htm

Mystery snake revealed after two years...? Heehee.

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neo-dragon
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quote:
Originally posted by Tatiana:
People who say "it's life" would you try to save a human from a predator? If so, how is that different? Humans are a species whose population is out of control, they're damaging the ecosystems they inhabit, by every good game management policy, we should be trying to limit their population. Would you try to rescue a human child from a mountain lion?

Of course I would try to save a human life. Why? Because I value a human life more than any animal. That's part of nature too, looking out for your own kind. Do I really need to justify that?
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Tatiana
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So it's different because it's your own species?

I have this thing about animals, I always have since I can remember, that I see them as individuals, as people. It's not that I don't see people as people. I do. It's just that I see animals as people too.

Humans are animals. Is it just sentiment that causes us to value each other's lives more highly than we do the lives of other species? Some of my favorite people are cats. All cats are people to me, and my cats are my children. I think people who feel there is any sort of difference in kind (rather than degree) between humans and our kindred animals are mistaken.

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neo-dragon
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Fair enough, but if you had to choose between saving the life of a random human child and a random kitten, you would save the human, right?
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Noemon
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quote:
Originally posted by Libbie:
Here's a site that lists all the snake species of Ohio, btw...if you still remember what he looked like, maybe you can identify him!

http://www.ohiodnr.com/wildlife/resources/reptiles/reptiles.htm

Mystery snake revealed after two years...? Heehee.

Thanks Libbie, what a great resource! I'm browsing through that (now bookmarked) site, and will let you know what I come up with.

By the way, I can't remember whether I posted in your welcome thread or not, but I'm awfully glad that you've decided to become a member here.

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Noemon
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Looks like it was probably a very young black rat snake.
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Little_Doctor
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quote:
Originally posted by Libbie:
quote:
Originally posted by Little_Doctor:
How about a Snake regurgitating a Hippo?


WARNING: This is an actual video.

That was UNBELIEVABLY DISGUSTING.
Pretty sweet huh?
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Tatiana
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neo-dragon, that's a false dichotomy, I believe. All such situations admit of solutions that go beyond "choose A or B".

I would save the kitten (being uniquely suited to that, due to my understanding of cat behavior and instincts) and send someone else simultaneously to save the child.

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MightyCow
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Keep in mind that the animals generally have no warm, fuzzy feelings toward you. Animals aren't people. Given the opportunity, they will eat you, eat your food, invade your territory, spoil your water, and pass on any number of diseases. Nature is all about survival.

I think if I saw the snake eating the frog, I'd bite the snake. Let him see how he likes it!

Edit: Tatiana, I hope you never get a job as a babysitter. It worries me that anyone would save the life of an animal before a person, unless it were a particularly special case (i.e. the person is trying to kill you).

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