I have my own reactions, but I'd like to share them later, after I get an idea what everyone else feels like without my own thoughts prejudicing other people.
Posts: 3293 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
I heard about this on NPR, minus a lot of the details.
The history channel had a special over the weekend called, "We can make you talk." One of the strongest weapons for breaking the people held in Guantanamo Bay is not that we will torture them, but that we will send them to Syria/Saudi Arabia/etc where torture is common.
This sounds exactly like what happened above. When he didn't confess to what we wanted to hear, we threatened to ship him off to some place they would torture him.
Whoever argues that things like this cannot happen in the US need to realize they can.
There are people who will argue that the pain and suffering of one man is the price we pay to keep it from happening to many more. Its so nice of those people to volunteer another person's pain on the off chance that they will be saved.
Posts: 11895 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
Not saying it didn't happen, but I'd love to see more verifiable data on this case. Not that Canada.com is unreliable or anything, but for something as serious as this, I'd really like some verifiable or verified data before making an opinion. I'm asking this mostly because if there are verified sources for this, Bush can expect his head on a platter within a year.
Posts: 289 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
I watched him deliver this live on CBC Newsworld. CBC has this online timeline. I don't know how much of this you'll see on American news stations though.
Posts: 3243 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
I've found more than a dozen CBC and other links, but all of them are him giving his account. What I'd like to see is some of the officials' accounts of the story (from the Canadian government's perspective). They apparently knew he was being held when he was detained in NY. They supplied US intelligence with detailed information on him. While it looks like the decision to deport him was, at this point, an American decision, it still has a few inconsistencies that could be torn apart by those who are determined to discredit this man.
As far as I can tell from searching, there is no verifiable sources on the internet. There are only different renditions of his official statement to the press and news reports on his statements to the press. No government details or comments, from the US or Canada. Well... not yet.
Posts: 289 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
i agree. i don't know enough about international law to say with any authority, but it would seem that this was a major breach of the law, and one which seems to be the result of policy, not an individual infraction. if this can be proven it's very serious.
Posts: 380 | Registered: Mar 2003
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As of now we know that Washington says it was in contact with someone in Ottawa/some Canadian agency (ie: the RCMP or CSIS) who provided them with information, although their decision to deport him was made without Canadian input. Rather than launching an immediate inquiry Ottawa has asked Washington who they were in contact with and (I assume) they will take more action once a reply has been given. So far, mum is the word. As to why he was flagged as a potential terrorist, no word on that either. Mr. Arar has said on a number of occaisions that he wants to know why this happened to him, but has yet to receive any kind of an answer. The only thing that we seem to have on him was his connection to Mr. Almalki, who was arrested and deported from Damascus and is still in Syria. His treatment while in the US, however, is still a he said/she said battle.
So, basically, it seems like there's going to be some stalling until the public forgets about it and then the case will be quietly swept under the rug.
Posts: 3243 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
Not Nantucket! I know a guy from Nantucket, and believe me, the stories about him are widely misspread.
Posts: 9754 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
Apparently, his case was known before this statement came out. This story didn't just appear out of thin air. This is a case that the US news has not picked up.
There are lots of things we don't know, though. Some of the story doesn't quite add up, at least to me. But I'm pretty sure the Americans and Canadians acted as portrayed, neither of them respecting Maher's rights. The Canadians weren't exactly throwing this all over either, because it seems their government agreed with the US actions.
There is a mindset of fear and anger that I think most of us here at Hatrack don't have. It is encouraged in the military. Nationalism is encouraged in beauracracies and law enforcement, that leads to a similar us vs them mindset that is frightening.
Do I want something done about terrorism and problems in the middle east? Yes.
Is this what I want done? No. No, and no.
It is all in the balance of life and human lives, and this direction is a really bad place to go.
Another mistake I want to point out is this is somehow only Bush's problem. In a lot of ways, the president of the US, while not being a puppet, is temporary. There are organizations and beaurocracies where people are in place for decades. These were the people dealing directly with Maher's case, and others like him. They are the ones primarily responsible for this. Delegation must occur, but wisely. It was a very bad thing for Bush to put even more power into the hands of these people, but they were already there and primed for such action. That is what is more scary.
posted
A war? If we're smart we'll figure out some way to send you some of our cold weather.
Really, all this seems to be doing is further degrade the already abysmally low impression of the US in the eye of the Canadian public. Not to mention more than a little public outcry against our own government. We like to be fair, after all.
Posts: 3243 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
BtL, while I understand your feeling of frustration on the issue, it looks like it's just as much an issue of the Canadian government taking their sweet time on this as well. Is there absolutely no way to get any verifiable info on this at all?
And I wasn't going to mention Mr. Almalki because I didn't really want to start a debate on it. I think the connection with him was stronger than mere coincidence, but perhaps what could help Mr. Arar's case is helping to get out Mr. Almalki.
Posts: 289 | Registered: Apr 2002
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Ami, it is Bush's problem if this gets verified. His current cabinet gave border patrol a great deal more power than they previously had, and apparently, since September 11th of 2001, tactics of the intelligence community have changed drastically. The thing is, if this account by Mr. Arar is verified, it will be directly because of decisions made by Bush's cabinet, which will directly reflect on his decision-making since the ordeal two years ago happened.
Posts: 289 | Registered: Apr 2002
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Joe has a paper on his desk. He can push the paper forward or he can stop it at his desk.
The piece of paper deals with a Syrian born male. Joe sees a stack of paper indicating that this Syrian born man may be a terrorist. None of it is conclusive. It is all circumstantial.
If Joe pushes the paper on, then he is just one of many who have doomed this man to torture and degradations galore. Joe is just following orders, just following procedures.
If Joe stops this piece of paper, his name gets noted as the person who let the man go. If the man is a terrorist, and kills someone, then Joe will get all the blame.
What is Joe's motivation to stop the paperwork? Why should Joe not rubber stamp the procedure? Why should Joe fight it? Sure, he has a duty to humanity, but Joe is not a judge. He is a 9 to 5 under paid worker who wants to go to lunch and flirt with the women at the water cooler. His sports team may have lost last night.
Sure there is Joe's concience, but Joe must also look after the welfare of his family. Joe must also look after the welfare of all the people who may be hurt if this Syrian is really a terrorist.
Joe pushes the paperwork on.
Joe could be American or Canadian or Syrian or Lebonese. He could be with the RCMP or the FBI or the guy who beats the prisoners into signing the appropriate forms.
Joe is not sadistically evil. He is not Draculan/demonic/laughs at your pain evil. He is something I find more scarey. He is apathetically, unstoppably, beaurocratically evil. He is Borg. He is the Dalek. He is the clone warrior. He is a force of nature that cannot be withstood, but may be contained only with Herculean efforts.
Posts: 11895 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
I'm not as worried about Joe the Beaurocrat as Joe the enforcement officer who emotionally abuses the man, though both are cogs in a machine that has too many cogs and not enough human compassion.
Now, think of Bush as being the ultimate Joe, who really only gets his job for 4 - 8 years depending on how popular he is. How popular he is depends on how much the American public likes what he has done. He couldn't have done much of this if the American public hadn't agreed with it. He would have backed off immediately if there had been any real outcry other than those who always decry such actions. We, the American people have some responsibility too. We gave up some of our rights, because we figured it wouldn't be us and we felt that the possibility of a few innocents was a necessary price for our safety.
Most Americans don't believe that what happened to Maher could happen in America. I didn't, for a while. But I've been around a few more military, recently, and I've talked to my husband about his military experience. I see how people can get to the point where they don't care about another individual if that person is labelled as "the enemy".
Posts: 3495 | Registered: Feb 2000
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I just wanted to point out that I'm well aware of the fact that Canada is doing as little as it can in this matter. Our delay tactic is pointing fingers at the US and saying we can't act until they say anything. They, of course, will say anything. Issue is forgotten, everybody wins!
Posts: 3243 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
But BtL, that's unfocused outrage that gets no answers and works toward settling nothing. We need answers here to try to fix whatever caused this, if this is truly a case where there was no evidence to justify Mr. Arar's treatement.
Posts: 289 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
>> Not saying it didn't happen, but I'd love to see more verifiable data on this case. Not that Canada.com is unreliable or anything, but for something as serious as this, I'd really like some verifiable or verified data before making an opinion. I'm asking this mostly because if there are verified sources for this, Bush can expect his head on a platter within a year. << (GreNME)
This has been all over the Canadian media since shortly before Arar was released. It definitely happened – that is to say, American officials deported a Canadian citizen to Syria.
However, what isn't clear is how much Canadian involvement there was in Arar's deportation. We know that Arar asked to be deported to Canada, but if someone at the Canadian Security and Intelligence Service or the Department of Foreign Affairs said "no thanks, we don't want him," then the heads rolling will be Canadian heads rather than American heads.
Thus I am now saving my outrage for whoever is ultimately determined to be at fault. This is one case where I definitely support a complete public inquiry, and I'd definitely like to see more cooperation from the US on it. Right now Ambassador Celluci is pretty much stonewalling us, and I find it infuriating.
Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000
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Yeah, Twink, I know it's been all over Canadian media. I'm still not convinced the personal story is without holes, nor that the "fault" lies squarely on any set of shoulders just yet. You can't verify Mr. Arar's story with more accounts of Mr. Arar's story.
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Given that our government has yet to contradict him or even question his issued statement, I'm prepared to accept it for the time being.
Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000
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But that doesn't seem circular to you? I mean, it definitely has me curious, but I'm not just going to accept it.
I'll still advise friends who are even of slightly Mid-Eastern descent to be wary of traveling in the US, though. The incident in Florida (which, by the way, everyone seems to have forgotten) last year was the moment I began feeling that way.
Posts: 289 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
Does anyone know all of the departments that were involved in this fiasco on the US side? Anyone know ways to find out?
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