posted
I don't think so. But I thought this was interesting enough to share. The following is a fragment of an interview with a Polish actor, writer and poet, who, after playing a major role in a movie, moved to the US to start things from the scratch.
quote:
Q: You worked in the States for 12 years and apparently the reason you came back to Poland was that you missed talking to people. Is there anyone you can talk to here?
A: There are things I have noone to talk to about here, but in there, I didn't even have company for a cup of coffee. We are closed up, but they are hermetic, inpenetrable. We are like a car on the road, with closed windows, but some air may get through the gaps in the windows. They are in a submarine. Nothing of the outside world gets to them.
(Forgive the hasty translation)
Anyway, all of what he said is against all my experience with Hatrack, and thus America. But that's how he saw it. What do you think? Is there anything that makes you think he is actually right?
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posted
I like America. I think he isn't too far from the truth though. We are very closed indivduals. We value our privacy and are fortunate enough to be able to find places we can be alone. I mean look at the sizes of our apartments and homes-huge. I lived in my parent's home (3 bedrooms) and spent most of my time savoring the isolation I was able to have in my bedroom. We take that same attitude to work with us. They put us in high-walled cubicles to seperate us from each other. They (companies) forget how effective people can be when they work in groups.
(Sorry if this makes no sense-it's 3:00am here)
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posted
It's funny, Kama, because this reminded me some things I often say about differences between small villages and big towns, here.
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posted
I think to make friends you have to be a friend. I mean, if you want to meet and talk to people, you have to take the first step. Here more than other places, perhaps, but people aren't going to just come up and glad hand you unless they're trying to sell you something.
But I can understand a new-comer's reluctance to do that. It's like people who lurk on a BB rather than leap right in. You don't want YOUR heart out there to get stomped on either.
There's more to this too. Americans are among the busiest people in the world, if you believe our productivity numbers and compare things like hours worked per week, etc. It basically means that once we reach adulthood we don't have the time for starting or maintaining a lot of new friendships. Heck, spending Thanksgiving with Caleb, tabithecat and Kayla used up my new friend quotient for the next decade I think! If I hadn't left Orlando at about the same time (thus making it difficult to see people like Icarus, Cor, zgator and Chris Bridges and their various tribes), there wouldn't have been room at all. It's just that I couldn't do the new friendships justice, you know.
Anyway, I don't think Americans as a rule seek out and enjoy being hermetically sealed. We're just better in small groups.
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posted
I wouldn't like to make conclusions basing only on this fragment, but it seems to me he was expecting things to be different, and that's where his disappointment comes from. I mean, it's highly unlikely anyone would just come up to him and start talking while he's drinking his coffee in Poland, either. Friends are made in specific social situations, not in the street. He should have known this.
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posted
This is pretty close to what I am going through now. My highschool years were great, I never felt lonely always had my friends around. And then my senior year, I met Carmen, and we became great friends and then serious boyfriend and girlfriend for 4 years. She was my friend, one who I could tell anything or talk to about anything and everything was great because she truly cared about me.
Now, I have friends, but either they dont really care about me, or they are too busy. I mean, the majority of "friends" that I have now, are friends that I met through skateboarding. They're all 21 to 26 years old and none of them are "going anywhere" in life. I know that I am being a bit judgemental about them, but at the same time, I am going somewhere in life. I need company of people that are active in life, in politics, in religion.
Without my girlfriend, I really do have no one like that. And now that I am in the working field, I dont have very many opportunities at all to meet new people. Everyone already has enough friends, it seems. I guess it doesnt help that I am pretty shy as well. This is one of the reasons, a major reason, why I might be quitting my job and going back to school. To find friends, because I need some.
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posted
I think one of the big mistakes people make about America is assuming it's at all homogenous. Someone from Japan told me that when people there who haven't been here think of America, they think of New York City and L.A.
I'm guessing this actor was in Hollywood or L.A., which seems to be a pretty insular town. Things would probably be different elsewhere.
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quote: Anyway, all of what he said is against all my experience with Hatrack, and thus America. But that's how he saw it. What do you think? Is there anything that makes you think he is actually right?
Different social expectations make for different experiences. I would say that most Americans are indeed uncomfortable in trying to really get to know new people. It seems t be a skill we often lose after childhood. Of course there are many exceptions to this statement, but I think many Americans who have moved to someplace other than where they grew up hardly know anything about their neighbors. In my case church is the great center of social life as that is where nearly all of my friends are made. The other source of friends is through my wife's culture. Brazilians are very gregarious people and they often feel isolated in the US. Hence, nearly everty time Brazilians meet each other in the US they become friends even if their personalities are very different. Hence my friends are from church and Brazil with a couple of good buddies from work thrown in the mix.
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posted
I would wonder just where in America he lived, and I would hazard a guess that it was a large city.
Growing up rural, where everyone knew everyone, of course there was none of the hermit-like stuff he was talking about. You greeted EVERYONE on the street in the small town or driving by on the road in the country.
However, during a short period of time when I lived in metropolis, I found it very disconcerting that while I was used to making eye contact and saying hello to everyone on the sidewalk , they obviously weren't used to people doing that! I couldn't get anyone to smile back or say hi. It was like I was invading their space by being friendly. I hadn't realize how different social rules were in cities as opposed to very small towns or rural areas.
posted
I talked to a recent immigrant from India, and got the same impression from him. I live in Birmingham, which is a decent sized city in the middle of the rural South, so we have an urban culture, but probably a lot more friendliness than places like L.A.
I asked him what was the thing that took him the most by surprise about the U.S. and he said the lonliness. My heart just went out to him when he said that. He said on the way from home to work in India, he would be immersed in people, and be greeted by dozens of friends, acquaintences, and so on. Here there was nobody, there were no people anywhere, and we didn't greet each other. I think it was a great hardship on him to feel so very alone.
Anna, I agree with the small town/large town thing. When I was at school, at Auburn, a small college town, everyone on the streets greeted each other, and you had permission to speak to anyone at any time in public, at the grocery store, in lines, at the theater. Strangers were always making offhand comments to each other, and laughing over things. Laundramats were particularly friendly places, since you had so much time to kill while things were washing. <laughs> When I got back to Birmingham I had to unlearn that, cause people would definitely look at you funny and move away if you spoke to them out of the blue.
I tend to meet people and make friends everywhere I go. It's a skill, I think, that can be learned. Maybe I need to write a paper or something. cyruseh, would you be interested in learning that skill?
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quote:He said on the way from home to work in India, he would be immersed in people, and be greeted by dozens of friends, acquaintences, and so on
That's why I was a bit surprised at his reaction. Poland is much more like the US in this respect, not like India (and other, more "open" countries). I don't think he would feel more alone (except for the natural isolation resulting from being in a new place, and the language barrier) than if he moved to a different city in Poland. If he wanted to be surrounded by people, it was kind of obvious the US was not the way to go. It's like he's exaggerating his alienation in the US, because he had been expecting something different.
Or maybe I'm reading too much into this.
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posted
Definitely in Oklahoma people are friendlier than the Chicago area. But the advantage of being in a large urban area, is that there are more people doing things. So if you want to do something crazy like showing dogs, things aren't as scattered out and you don't have to travel nearly as far to find people with the same interests. If you like the concert scene (of whatever music) you can find that music. So I think things are divided up into smaller sub-communities with specific interests in a large City. The things bring people from all walks of life together in Chicago that don't exist out in Los Angeles are two a) bad weather and b) the subway. People who have been riding the same subway routes for years get to know each other quite well and have time to chat on the train. With the weather, if there is a bad storm, everybody has to get out and shovel snow, and you are all doing it together. I would assume things are similar in New York. But, Los Angeles has neither and so is probably the most isolated. They might possibly have the more vibrant sub-cultures as a result but that is arguable.
1. Don’t let the fact that you are alone stop you from doing anything you would like to do. Go to restaurants, movies, concerts, art museums, whatever you find interesting and fun. This may take courage at first, but gather your courage to do it a few times, and you will soon find it easy and natural.
2. Enjoy yourself. Whether you are alone or with others, be interested in your surroundings and open to new impressions and experiences.
3. Be interested in people. Lose your fear of strangers and learn to see everyone as a potential friend. Notice things about them. Imagine what it is like to be them right now, what they might be thinking and feeling.
4. Try to look nice when you are out in the world. It’s not that you must be beautiful to make friends, but groom yourself enough not to look scary. <laughs> The Charles Manson look isn’t conducive to meeting people.
5. Don’t limit yourself. Don’t think only people of a certain age, whose clothes are a particular style and whose hair looks right, are potential friends. Look at kids, old people, people of all ethnicities and cultures and in every profession and walk of life, as potential friends. After all, even if you are more interested in people your age, kids have elder siblings and babysitters, old people have dear nephews and grandchildren, etc. All people are connected. And all people are interesting and worthy in their own right, too. If you are a shy person, could it be that it’s really you who are snubbing everyone else’s overtures?
When people are in high school, they usually separate into groups like nerds, freaks, preps, stoners, band geeks, partiers, etc., and don’t often make friends from other groups. In college, most people abandon those categories and realize that there are interesting cool wonderful people under all classifications. The people who are the least like you are the ones from whom you have the most to learn. Be a xenophile. There are whole worlds of interest out there of which you may be unaware.
6. If you are shy, then make friends with someone who makes friends easily, and you will likely find other friends among their friends and acquaintances.
7. Be helpful. If you see someone struggling with something, be willing to offer your help. Don’t be pushy, of course, but be willing offhand to assist people if they seem to need it. “You look lost, can I help you find something?” “Let me help you pick those up,” (if someone drops something.) Hold the door for someone who has their arms full. (Here in the south we hold the door for everyone who comes behind us, but I know that’s not the custom in other parts of the country.)
8. Smile. (In an offhand way.) If you take too much sudden interest in a stranger, you will put them off, but if you seem friendly, but not particularly eager, you will put them at their ease. The smile you want is one in which you smile with your mouth, but not so much your eyes. The eyes should show benign regard only.
9. Ask questions or comment offhand about things of immediate mutual interest. If you are waiting for your plane you might ask someone if they’ve heard if it will be late. If you are at a concert ask who is the opening band. If you are in line you can ask how long the person in front of you has been there, how fast the line is moving. If you can make a funny remark about something happening in the vicinity, that’s even better. You can’t launch instantly into talking about things that matter. You have to talk about inconsequentia first. Anything that’s minor, and of immediate passing interest will do. There’s a reason why the weather is such a perennial topic of conversation.
10. Be friendly to all who serve you. Appreciate the people who wait on you at restaurants, check you out at stores, and so on. Particularly when you are traveling, they can be very kind and helpful.
11. It’s not about you. Don’t ever be offended, or hurt, or put upon in any way, if a person ever snubs your friendliness. They are a stranger. They don’t know you. Whatever their reaction, it most likely has a lot more to do with how they are feeling today, and what they have going on in their life, than it does anything at all about you. Be blasé about rejection. After all, with strangers, you have no expectation that they are good people, or kind, or polite. They could be afraid of strangers, or too busy, or in a bad mood. They could be anything at all. Accept that and don’t be worried or put off by it, but respond according to how they act. I’ve found that almost everyone is decent, kind and good.
12. Don’t get discouraged. It takes a lot of tries to get one hit. Don’t expect instant complete success. Cultivate friendliness as an attitude, an overall approach to people, and you will begin to make more and more friends. It’s a snowball thing. Give it time and be persistent. With practice and consistent effort, you will eventually get results.
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1. Don’t let the fact that you are alone stop you from doing anything you would like to do. Go to restaurants, movies, concerts, art museums, whatever you find interesting and fun. This may take courage at first, but gather your courage to do it a few times, and you will soon find it easy and natural
Okay, so I'm already failing. I bought two tickets to the upcoming Yanni concert, but I have no one at all in mind to go with me at this point. I just bought two tickets because I didn't want to go alone.
posted
I just want to add that I'm a painfully shy person by nature. Because of my job, traveling a lot, and other things that have happened in my life, I just happened to learn this skill. Anyone can learn it. Like anything, you try and then screw up sometimes, and then you try some more, and get better at it. The most important thing, rule zero, I guess it should be, is just to have courage to try.
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posted
maybe i am backwards in my thinking. I mean, I really would enjoy having some better friends, but is it wrong of me, to truly just be looking for a girl that I will one day marry? I guess I shouldnt try and rush things, but I am getting really impatient.
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Look at it this way - if you expand your social circle, you're more likely to meet more girls, and the odds are better you'll find someone you fit and love.
Dating and socializing is work, and it's a pain sometimes. With rare exceptions, I doubt she'll knock on your door, though. You have to do the work to find her.
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posted
I'm shy. Hyper shy. It was so much EASIER to meet friends in college. I had all kinds of friends. Christains, pagans and heathens, people who liked to sit on the floor watching Disney movies, people who liked to drink illegally in their room then I'd get to taste nasty alcohol and wonder why the heck people like that stuff so much. It was so great! I had all sorts of ways of meeting people. But now, having not had a job for 1 year and now that I have a job It's so hard to meet new people. Let alone.... Potential Lovers. How can the opportunity to engage in debachery with someone who worships me unsue if I can't even make friends? I've lived near Boston for about 2 years and I still don't have any new local friends! It's awful. Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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Colleges are the friendliest places on earth, I think. It's much harder to make friends out in the world than at school. Most people in the world are already set. They have their family and their friends and aren't so open to new social experiences. It just means your hit rate is going to be a lot lower, in general.
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posted
I've made more friends within the last 5 months (since I started working) than during the 5 years of university.
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I should go back to college. I'm sick of the real world. I can't even get a nice, good paying job at a library like I had when I was in college. In stead I barely have aquantances (Sp) and a lot of my closest friends are on the internet.
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posted
I am a naturally friendly person, and it has been much harder for me to make friends now that I'm working a 8-5 job. Hatrack has filled a bit of that void, and meeting the hatrackers that are close has helped a little bit too. It is nice to know that if I absolutely needed a shoulder to cry on I could call any of them, and they would let me come over and do so, even if it is a bit of a drive.
But for the first time in a long time, I'm definitely in that boat, of wanting to make friends but not being able to get out enough to do so.
posted
Oh, and once you have a group of friends, it becomes a whole lot easier to make more. I used to do this at school, too, like I do in Parachat, only we didn't have a name for it like newbie fishing. But I'd be on the lookout for interesting new people and start talking to them (often in laundramats, for some reason) and then I'd get them to start hanging out with us.
The golden phrase "My friends and I are..." (going to see a band play tonight, having a get together at Chewalcla, doing a block party, going to the free flick, watching a play, whatever) "...you ought to come too." Once you can invite someone to group things, it's much less scary for them. If it's just one on one it seems like it matters a lot more. If it's a big group, they can change their mind at the last minute and it won't be a big deal.
Don't stop making friends once you already have friends. Then it's time for you to think of the people who don't yet, and how they need you to reach out to them. And to remember that new people are the life blood of any group and recruitment is the key to having an interesting mix that will last.
[ December 11, 2003, 11:21 AM: Message edited by: ana kata ]
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I have to do it anyway. I didn't like it in high school either, and so didn't really have any kind of social life until college, when it exploded. Gave me the taste and need for people, and a few of the skills of socializing to get them. Not all, though. That's come recently. I've had to grind in social skills the way LDs study reading. It's just as learnable and just necessary, though. I'll never be a good politician, but this social world of ours is part of a package of happiness, and by some grim sense of humor, it's the part I have to labor at.
If I don't have friends, I get depressed. It's amazing - fear of depression has done what the gilded lure of popularity and my parents' years of entreaties failed to - motivated me to be social. To potentially get my heart stomped. To call people and stick with even those that are hard to be around, because most people are good at the heart and they are worth it.
It is possible. It just takes (for much of this geeky, bookish, adorable tribe of mine, especially me) work and courage. It's okay - you can always come back and complain to Hatrack.
posted
I'm fiercely loyal to the few friends I do have. I just seem to like small groups of people instead of hanging out with 50 people and not saying anything as I am a person of few words who dislikes parties and most social gatherings.
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posted
Well, it's like any game, like tennis, say, or skateboarding. It's work at first, and not much fun when you suck at it, but if you stick to it and keep trying and building your skills, it eventually becomes very fun. Also, since almost nobody is good at this, once you ARE, you become someone who can help everyone else out a lot, someone people can gather around. It's really a good thing to know how to do. And the payoff is huge.
[ December 11, 2003, 11:31 AM: Message edited by: ana kata ]
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posted
Syn, you're going for options here. Anne Kate is absolutely right. You don't have to do huge groups - but all of the above holds true for small groups as easily as large ones.
*hug* Current method isn't working. Maybe try this?
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quote:The smile you want is one in which you smile with your mouth, but not so much your eyes. The eyes should show benign regard only.
This is the one part of your post that I disagree with, Anne Kate. When I see someone smiling, and the smile doesn't extend to their eyes, I tend to take it with a grain of salt, since that's often a halmark of an inauthenticity.
I personally just smile, and don't think too much about it, and it seems to work out. I do have a friend though, who walks around beaming all the time. He's just an incredibly happy, if somewhat spaced out, person, and I know that he freaks many people out. He has a lot of friends, and a very loving extended family, so it isn't causing him any problems socially, but a lot of people know him as "that weird smiling guy".
posted
Yes, Noemon, I don't know if I described that well. What I mean is that your smile should show mild friendliness, not over-eagerness or fawning or fatuity.
[ December 11, 2003, 11:42 AM: Message edited by: ana kata ]
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posted
I dont mind having a "few" friends, infact, thats what I prefer. The problem is, the few friends I have now, are not the kind that I can really talk to.
This is the only way I am able to explain it:
Mine and Carmens friendship was so close, that we talked about everything. I knew everything going on in her life, and she knew everthing going on in my life. I could tell her, "so and so from work said this to me, can you believe that?" and she would know who Im talking about and really care about it. My friends that I have now, could hardly care less about something like that.
I miss having that close friendship with a girl that I love, and thats what I want. Ive tried a couple of things so far, but have had no success yet. hmm.
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posted
cyruseh, I know what you mean. I miss that too - I miss my best friend being able to know instantly everything I meant when I said something, and loving me for the fobiles.
It's hard to be without that once you've had it. I hate starting over at the beginning. The beginning is where you are, though. The choice now is to start over and get it again, or to stay put and wish for a transporter.
I haven't found the transporter yet. I guess it means starting at the beginning. Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
When I was at Harding University making friends was much easier, because I was in the Honors Scholars group--the top tier of the honors program, a small group of people who (while they might not think like me) typically enjoyed the kind of philosophical discussions I like.
Then I came home and entered Murray State as a grad student, and suddenly I was alone. I'm quiet enough that making friends doesn't come easily. I don't worry about it a lot--I once stayed in the dorms totally alone for a week due to a snowstorm without getting lonely--but it would be nice to have someone to talk to like that in person. Not to mention have romantic prospects before I turn old and grey.
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posted
On Reoccuring people At least having a steady job means I get to see the same people almost each day, which is rather nice. Every once in a while some beautiful person will walk in. Maybe after ages I'll make some friends. I saw a girl who had offered me a ride back in... September? i think. Saw her today. But it's hard to make friends at work. I miss being away at school in a dorm cramed with folks and catching the same stupid colds.
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posted
Hmmph. At least people have stopped trashing my home town.
L.A. is a big, big place, and I don't claim to have been close to all over it. But I have met friendly people almost everywhere I've been. The best place to meet people is either on the bus or waiting for one. It's the only thing I really miss from when I didn't have a car. (Although the very THOUGHT of trying to get places on the bus with three kids in tow gives me the collywobbles.)
But you can meet nice people waiting in lines anywhere (and if you live around here, count on spending lots of time in lines!) -- not everyone will be on their cell, using their Palms, or otherwise occupied.
I've met friendly people in stores, walking down the street, in the library (ok, technically the library I usually go to is in Beverly Hills), and yes, even in coffee shops!
But y'all can trash Hollywood all you like. No one actually LIVES there -- there's just stores and tourist traps and the Bowl. Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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