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» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » The War In Iraq is a Complete Failure (Page 3)

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Author Topic: The War In Iraq is a Complete Failure
Elison R. Salazar
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quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
quote:
Originally posted by Elison R. Salazar:

In either case, the current situation in the Mid-East is a screw up of epic proportions by the Neocon's of the Bush administration and nothing could have salvaged it except by the whole hearted acceptance of Ethnic cleansing by the Americans.

That is the opposite of "salvaging".
Right? The point is, don't do half measures when you can do full measures. Its trying to pretend to be a democracy that cares about liberty and self determination gets in the way of getting the job of spreading your affluence done.
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kmbboots
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I prefer we not do full measures when it comes to ethnic cleansing.
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Elison R. Salazar
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quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
I prefer we not do full measures when it comes to ethnic cleansing.

I'm not quite saying that. I am saying that the effort of the United States to act according to its interests while following a soft or Doublethink / Doublespeak about the operation is what doomed itself from the start and the half measures is from trying to achieve the contradiction of accomplishing both or at least pretending to give lipservice to both when either it should have gone full Liberty or full Affluence, if the latter they simply should have fully supporting Iraqi sectarianism and backed one side; or gone full liberty and tried a functional democracy not caring whether whoever gains control is a pliable puppet or not.

They tried to trade away a little security for a little liberty and achieved neither while losing both.

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kmbboots
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Or we should have stayed out of it beyond managing our own borders. There is very little good we ever could have done in Iraq. Iraq has been broken for a very long time - at least WWI - and all we keep doing is smashing the picture up into smaller bits and hoping the big pieces will sell us oil.
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Elison R. Salazar
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Perhaps, but I'm operating under the assumption that even if one of us took the alias of John Titor and travelled back to the year 2000 in time to "warn" people about the disaster of Iraq the democrats would still need balls surgically implanted within them you'ld be laughed off as an Un-American nutjob who hates America and HOW DARE YOU CRITICISE OUR PRESIDENT DO YOU NOT RESPECT THE HIGH AND HOLY SACRED OFFICE!? And there's nothing you can do but hope you can take out both Cheney and Bush and make it look like a hard far right false flag operation.
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Destineer
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Apropos of reparations:

On Reparations, by Adolph Reed

quote:
There's a more insidious dynamic at work in this politics as well, which helps to understand why the reparations idea suddenly has spread so widely through mainstream political discourse. We are in one of those rare moments in American history -- like the 1880s and 1890s and the Great Depression -- when common circumstances of economic and social insecurity have strengthened the potential for building broad solidarity across race, gender and other identities around shared concerns of daily life, concerns that only the minority of comfortable and well-off can dismiss in favor of monuments and apologies and a politics of psychobabble. Concerns like access to quality health care, the right to a decent and dignified livelihood, affordable housing, quality education for all. These are objectives that can be pursued effectively only by struggling to unite a wide section of the American population who experience those concerns most acutely, the substantial majority of this population who have lost those essential social benefits or live in fear of losing them. And isn't it interesting that at such a moment the corporate-dominated opinion-shaping media discover and project a demand for racially defined reparations that cuts precisely against building such solidarity?
Separated from the conspiracy-theoretic subtext, which I disagree with, I have some sympathy for the idea that the left is shooting itself in the foot with a focus on divisive issues.
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Mucus
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quote:
Originally posted by BlackBlade:
From the NYTs,

"...militants turned over the bodies of Shiite civilians they had killed, only to bomb the cemetery during their funerals, according to one account."

Look, murdering people at all is messed up. But that's like another order of magnitude out from messed up.

Yeah, what kind of monster would bomb civilians at a funeral ?
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BlackBlade
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quote:
Originally posted by Mucus:
quote:
Originally posted by BlackBlade:
From the NYTs,

"...militants turned over the bodies of Shiite civilians they had killed, only to bomb the cemetery during their funerals, according to one account."

Look, murdering people at all is messed up. But that's like another order of magnitude out from messed up.

Yeah, what kind of monster would bomb civilians at a funeral ?
You won't see me cuddling up to our drone strike policies. That's seriously messed up too.

edit: In this instance though there's the added nefariousness of pretending to charitably give the bodies of people you've murdered to their loved ones so you can murder them too.

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kmbboots
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quote:
Originally posted by Elison R. Salazar:
Perhaps, but I'm operating under the assumption that even if one of us took the alias of John Titor and travelled back to the year 2000 in time to "warn" people about the disaster of Iraq the democrats would still need balls surgically implanted within them you'ld be laughed off as an Un-American nutjob who hates America and HOW DARE YOU CRITICISE OUR PRESIDENT DO YOU NOT RESPECT THE HIGH AND HOLY SACRED OFFICE!? And there's nothing you can do but hope you can take out both Cheney and Bush and make it look like a hard far right false flag operation.

Yes. I am well aware that stopping the 2003 invasion was impossible. But we have been breaking things in the Iraq for much longer than that. I am convinced that the best we can do is to just stop.
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Mucus
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BlackBlade: It's true that they probably felt an extra twinge of betrayal in the split second between hearing the bomb go off and before they died.

However, you can probably appreciate from the outside it doesn't really make a big difference which monster has a slightly less shiny coat.

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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by GaalDornick:
The analogy is more than imperfect if the bombed out ruin is going away on its own. I believe racism in this country is declining, especially among the younger generations (anyone 30 and under). And by the time those generations are the legislators and law enforcement officers, racism should be effectively gone from the system. IMHO, obviously.

How many years in the future does this opinion think america would be accurately able to say that there's no racism in the system?
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Mucus
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quote:
Originally posted by BlackBlade:
Yeah, I as reading about that. They want oil from North East Iraq, and it looks like the Kurds are going to control that.

Looks like we're going to get this prediction tested.

quote:

Isis insurgents in Iraq have seized several northwestern enclaves from Kurd control, prompting Syrian Kurdish fighters to cross the Iraqi border in an attempt to fend off the assault.
Forces of the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant, known as Isis, began the attack late on Saturday, seizing control of majority Kurdish towns and territory that includes an oilfield and access to the Mosul dam. Dozens of Kurdish peshmerga fighters were reportedly killed.
The fall of the towns marks the first time that Kurds have lost territory to Isis forces and delivers a blow to Kurdish fighters who had argued that they were more capable of defending the country than the Iraqi army, which let much of the north fall into Isis's hands in June.

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/3654aef8-1b13-11e4-b649-00144feabdc0.html#axzz39RedGDl6
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Samprimary
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http://rudaw.net/english/kurdistan/040820144
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BlackBlade
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URL issues.
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