posted
Don't blame the victim: I hear this all the time and each time I have to wonder - why not?
If I am a victim of crime, it is pointless for me to sit around blaming others. It may be accurate to do so, but it won't help me stop that crime from happening to me again in the future. It will do the reverse - it will convince me that I don't need to change anything, and thus will ensure I continue to be at risk.
So, why bother blaming someone else when you could be figuring out how to change yourself instead? After all, there are few unavoidable things. For almost anything that happens to you, there's something reasonable you could have done to avoid it. If there is such a thing you could have done, isn't it more productive to worry about that instead of how that other person is to blame for your problems? Finding your own mistakes is the only thing that's going to help YOU.
posted
Ah. Those aren't victims then, Tres. They're survivors.
But let's hope you never become a victim. Because the perpetrator has responsibility for what happened as well.
Posts: 14745 | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
I know this isn't quite withing the range of your argument, but "true" victims have no preexisting understanding of the wrong done to them. An example would be children. How could you blame a child for a divorce, or a mistreatment done to them. I see your point: someone with some years under them usually cannot claim complete ignorance when they are wronged, but some situations require some sympathy.
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posted
Reaches through cable and whacks Tres over the head with a cast iron frying pan. Tres falls over and bleeds profusely from cut on head and suffers permanent damage to seeing, hearing and balance.
How could you allow me to do such a thing to you, Tres? Tsk, tsk. What a pity you were victimized. Too bad it's your fault. Maybe next time you'll see into the future and be able to avoid cast iron frying pans, hmm?
posted
theres probably ceartin situations where there can be some blame on the victim because they were being stupid. Like regardless of waht coby bryant did the chick was stupid to go up to his room anyway. but if he did anything then he obviously needs to be punished.
also, these icons are new to me so I wanted to post it right here: sweeet
But let's hope you never become a victim. Because the perpetrator has responsibility for what happened as well.
I've been victimized many a time, as I'd assume everyone has. I suppose by your terms I just decided to be a survivor instead.
And of course the perpetrator has responsibility. But as the victim I don't need to worry about that. I need to worry about ME, and what I did that led to the problem, and what I can do to avoid it in the future. If I don't, I'm at a big risk, no?
I coach a basketball team. When the ref makes a bad call the kids come up to me and complain. As far as I know, all the coaches I've known react to this the same way: "Don't worry about the referee - you've got to worry about not doing whatever it was that made them think you committed that foul." And there's a good reason for this. Nobody gets any better by blaming the refs, even if they really are wrong. You only improve by fixing your own game.
quote:theres probably ceartin situations where there can be some blame on the victim because they were being stupid.
You don't have to be stupid to make a mistake.
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Someone harms you, you've been fouled. If you were playing by the rules, then it isn't your fault.
Have you been a victim of a trauma, Tres? Done any reading about how people recover from traumas?
Victims actually do enough to blame themselves. They think they deserve it, they think they've done something wrong. Often, it's them thinking it's THEIR fault that leads to continued victimization. Recovery is focused around the victims realizing that what happened is not their fault. They also work on recognizing the situation that they were in and how to avoid it again to prevent a repeated victimization.
But it remains that victims continue to be victims and suffer when they blame themselves. It's doubled when friends and family blame then, tripled when the rest of society does.
Why aren't the majority of rapes reported?
The victims fear being blamed. In this society, with views much the same as Tresopax's, they ARE.
Posts: 14745 | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
Tres, maybe I'm not reading you right, but I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt, and believe that you're not talking about actual crime type victimhood and are actually talking about victimhood mentality. What you're saying is certainly applicable to social situations. I spoke with a woman tonight who was taking a parenting class I'll be helping with in a few weeks. She described one very difficult problem with her daughter, which I listened to, and was prepared to offer some suggestions, which was what she had explicitly asked for. Before I had a sentence out completely, she went on to describe another very difficult problem with her son. I started to clear my throat, and she went on to describe yet another very difficult problem with her *other* son. All of these issues were, of course, the children's problems, not hers. It became clear in no time that she was a victim of her uncontrollable children.
The truth is that her kids are not irreemably out of control. The truth is that she is only as much a victim of her children as she has made herself. And so, blaming her children as the source of the problem is the only way. I hope she'll get something out of our class, but in all honesty, I don't think she's ready yet.
In that case, yeah, attaching blame isn't productive, and masks the real issues. But I think if you boil it down, it's not the attaching of blame -- it's attaching of blame in the wrong place. It's taking responsibility for the wrong things (the things outside our control) and not taking responsibility for the right things (the things within our control). That, I think, is the essence of victimhood mentality. Is that what you were really trying to say?
There are real victims, and blame is another word for attaching responsibility. In cases of real victimhood, responsibility must be applied somewhere so that other innocents aren't hurt in the future. So there's a place for blame, I think.
edited to add:
Tres, the basketball illustration isn't fully apt. You're right, it's not productive for the kids to get so bogged down in blaming the ref for the bad call they forget to play the game. But it would be wrong to completely ignore the problem if it's chronic. A ref who routinely makes bad calls needs to be called to account for his mistakes, if for no other reason than so he's aware of the problem and is given an opportunity to become better.
A rape victim *does* need to look at their contributions to the situation, you're right. Maybe there is some contribution, maybe there is none. Regardless of their role, it doesn't mean they let their perpetrator go on to commit further rape. They actually have a *responsibility* to pursue blame of the perpetrator, IMO, though I could see why they wouldn't wish to.
quote:Someone harms you, you've been fouled. If you were playing by the rules, then it isn't your fault.
True, in a way, but as I've said, that's a useless way of looking at it. If a kid gets fouled and nobody calls it, we tell them to either react to the foul more or try to show them what they can do to avoid getting that sort of defense. We don't tell them "well, isn't your fault because you obeyed the rules" because they'll learn nothing from that.
quote:Have you been a victim of a trauma, Tres? Done any reading about how people recover from traumas?
No, I don't believe so. And yes.
I'm not talking about trauma cases where victims are so off the extreme end of blaming themselves that we have to constantly tell them they aren't to blame to help them get over their trauma. That's an exception, where even if they were partially to blame you couldn't tell them, because they'd obsess over it due to their condition. In their case, they've already taken my advice - and taken it far too far.
I'm talking about what regular everyday people should be thinking in everyday life if they are to live well. And most people do NOT agree with me on this, at least not in regards to themselves. I've seen time and time again where something will go wrong for someone and rather than take a look at what they could have done to fix it, they'll blame someone else. I had a friend who failed his Econ midterm and blamed it on his professor's lack of teaching (which was true), completely ignoring the fact that he also did no reading outside of class to try and correct this problem. True, the professor was being unfair, but it was pointless to sit around blaming the professor instead of doing something to avoid the situation. I've found most people think like that in this society - most believe you should hate the criminal, and absolve the victim of any error. It's a big mistake in my view.
quote:[quote]It's taking responsibility for the wrong things (the things outside our control) and not taking responsibility for the right things (the things within our control). That, I think, is the essence of victimhood mentality. Is that what you were really trying to say?
Not exactly.
I'm just trying to say that it's you or the world. You can talk about what the world did wrong to hurt you, but you have no control over the world does, so your talk is just that - talk. But you do have control over yourself, so why not spend the time worrying about what you can do to avoid trouble, and just assume the world is fixed?
posted
apparently my post was not recieved too well.
I think if what coby did supposdly(my example) is true then obviously its his fault for doing somthing wrong. However, the girl was being dumb, she went up to his hotelroom alone in the middle of the night. Maybe he tricked her, maybe she just made a mistake whatever, she was being dumb.
I suppose a more obvious example would be a guy walking around the bronx at 3 AM with money sticking out of all his pockets. Yeah if anyone jumps him its obviously thier fault, they did somthing wrong. However, it was really stupid of the guy to do that. (dont mistake that Im making a direct comparision with the coby thing)
(now more fun with these cwazy emotocons) Posts: 1896 | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
I can see the sense of what you are saying. In other words, if something isn't right, don't whine about it, figure out how to fix it. Be proactive. Work around the problem or find another solution. It's the way for people to become empowered instead of victimized.
Yet until there is a recognition that something is wrong, there's no real impetus to change it. I'm thinking of this in terms of social problems like racism, domestic violence, child abuse, rape, and sexual harrassment in the workplace.
Realize, too, that one really crucial way the victim can fix problems in our society is with legislation. What I find interesting is that when the victim does take steps to change things, people at large often don't like the results. For instance, it was black people who worked and struggled and got the legislation removed that enforced segregation in public facilities. It was also black people, often black children and college students, who actually took the direct brunt of the brutality required to bring the new laws into practice, because all the laws in the world were of no use if they were not enforced. When they did this, it upset a lot of people, many who claimed they believed in fairness and law and order, because they blamed the ensuing riot upon those who quietly sat down and ordered lunch at a counter, for instance, instead of those who beat them up for doing so.
Another example would be how the victims of sexual harrassment in the workplace were able to successfully help themselves by getting laws written and enforced against it. That has made a tremendous change for the better in the atmosphere in our workplaces, and in the ability of women to earn a living. Yet many people who decry the requirement for "political correctness" are the same ones who think everyone should deal with their own problems.
I'm not being very coherent now. I probably should write this later when I have had more sleep or something.
[ January 08, 2004, 05:57 AM: Message edited by: ak ]
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posted
Tres, when I hear the phrase, "Don't blame the victim" I think of the rape victim refusing to get up on the witness stand to prosecute the rapist because the rapist lawyer will make her out to be the cause, not the result of the rape.
You are not talking about that.
You are talking about people who build houses in flood planes, build multi-million dollar hotels on coasts known to be routinely hit by hurricanes, and people moving into the middle of the forests suprised when a forest fire burns their house down.
In those cases, blaming the weather for your lack of forethought would be useless. Rebuilding would seem foolish.
But take another look at your basketball analogies. A player is fouled but the other opponent is not caught. What do you tell your players? You teach them how to react better so that the fouler will be caught next time. Part of you does blame the fouling opponent, though you are doing something about it.
Case two, a ref makes a bad call. Your responce is to keep on playing, but don't you also keep track of the bad calls that ref makes, so you can make sure they don't keep happening? Some responsibility does fall on the bad ref.
Blame and responsibility is rarely a 100% thing. I've seen cronic drunk drivers try to explain thier accidents not on their alcoholic intake, but on the fact that the other driver stopped at the stop sign that any regular driver would have blazed through at 3am. Should the other driver plan on running stop signs at 3am from now on?
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posted
I had a sunday school teacher when I was 17 who complained about this lady at his work who would wear a pink thong under white translucent pants and eventually sued for sexual harassment. It seemed a little odd that he was telling us about it. I have obviously forgotten what it had to do with the lesson.
Of course, I live in an earthquake zone. And I think the folks who live on the Mississippi flood plain are foolish.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
I think Dan's post is well put. I think people who are fed up with the proliferation of Maury Povich like shows where everybody whines about how they have been victimized sometimes get the false impression that it's all or nothing, that there are tons of people out there using whatever bad they can find in their lives as crutches for as long as possible. And I don't know that that's necessarily true. It seems simplistic to me. I can think of very few people I know who are actually that extreme. I think the reality is that most people do a little bit of both. They blame wrongdoers and they seek to avoid being victimized the same way again. But it's cathartic to tell your friends what a jerk your boss is, or how stupid that cop was. Doesn't mean that person isn't also going to learn from the experience, but that's not what they share with you, because that's not what your friends keep you around for. When people communicate, be it with a friend or somebody they meet on the bus, they're not interested in having somebody agree that they should be much wiser in the future. What they want is someone to be on their side. How many of us like to go into any depth about our failures? As a teacher, as a parent, as a spouse, as a writer, as a human being, I've had many successes and many failures. I happen to think I'm a good teacher/parent/lover/human being/whatever, but beyond that, I want my friends to think well of me. So I don't dwell on my failures here.
When I was nineteen I got three tickets one day while driving my girlfriend's car. She had just come home from a month in the hospital for myasthenia gravis, and I took her car out to get us some food. I got pulled over because one headlight was burnt out. I got pulled over around 5:30 in the afternoon, and while it was starting to get dusky, it was far from dark. Legally, I didn't even have to have my headlights on yet, but I did. In addition to that ticket--not a warning, mind you, but a ticket--the cop gave me tickets for not finding her registration or proof of insurance. I won't go into detail here, but truly he was a sadist, who only stopped writing tickets when I finally stood up to him (over a fourth ticket he ended up not giving me). The guy was really and truly a jerk. But I could have avoided the situation. I could have checked the headlights before I got in the car. I could have refrained from driving a car whose registration I did not know the location of. Did I break the law? Yes. The fact that most cops would not have ticketed me under the circumstances doesn't matter. Do you think I spent a lot of time telling my friends that I foolishly put myself in a position to get three tickets? No, I told them what a nazi jerk this cop was, and they were appropriately sympathetic. But guess what? I have never again driven someone else's car at night without verifying that both lights work, and I have made sure that I carry proof of my own insurance in my wallet, not in my car. So while I whine, that doesn't mean I haven't learned from the experience.
(And this is only the example I'm willing to tell you!)
It's also worth noting that for victims of more serious offences, giving voice to your outrage and hurt is cathartic and possibly healing, and is a natural stage in the process. Ultimately, though, so is letting go of the anger.
I spent much of my late teens and early twenties ticked off at my parents for all that they did wrong, until I realized that I was letting the anger destroy me . . . I was failing to appreciate the good in my life because I was so bitter.
I'm not waffling here--I'm making the point that yes, people need to learn from what happens to them, and learn to avoid being victimized, but that doing this is not mutually exclusive with acknowledging what has been done to you, venting your legitimate anger about it, and wanting your friends to support you. There are certainly people who do more venting than growing, but I don't think it's as much of an epidemic as you seem to think it is.
A couple considerations on why the perception of the blame game might be bigger than the reality: television, especially talk television, loves to wallow in the pitiful. But does that mean it's so common? Television always wallows in what sells, and in what is sensationalistic. Big time generalization coming here, and I'll apologize if I fail to put it non-offensively . . . a larger than proportional percentage of the people who are home during the day to watch television are undereducated, and many can't distinguish between cheap emotionalism and high drama, and these shows pander to that audience. Another thought: you mention a friend who is a student. I would say that a larger percentage of teenagers and young people prefer to blame others rather than themselves because this is a natural part of being that stage in life. Teenagers, whether they're actually in their teens or merely as mature as teenagers, are reaching the age where they see less and less difference between themselves and adults, and they want adult powers and rights and dignity, but when faced with adult-like expectations and responsibilities, want to be children again. They want someone else to take care of it. They're on the border between childhood and adulthood, and they want to be able to control exactly where they ride that fine line. This is a natural stage, just as it's completely natural for a three-year-old to tantrum. It's not new. Whining teenagers aren't a modern invention. Heck, they can even be found "in a galaxy far, far away"!
On the other hand, I wonder if you aren't talking about more serious issues, though you are safely vague in this thread. I have seen you make statements like this in the past in regard to acquaintance rape and discrimination. If that's what's on your mind, I would reiterate that it's certainly possible to do both: to learn to avoid being victimized, while expressing your legitimate anger at both past victimizations and the need to take upon yourself the responsibility for protecting yourself from the evil of other people.
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the chick was stupid to go up to his room anyway. but if he did anything then he obviously needs to be punished.![[Party]](graemlins/party.gif)
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