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I won’t apologize for the length of this thread, I’m dealing with a very complex issue, and I need thoughts of everybody. What I do apologize for, though, is the rambling nature of how I write, I do tend to go off on tangents...
I’ve happened upon a dilemma, of sorts. Well...its a problem that I’ve been thinking about on and off ever since I decided I’d come to college (sec, ever since I knew there was such a thing as college). I’ve always known that I would attend a college or university, though I never knew where. Being in an Asian family, my parents, and in fact my whole family is prone to the stereotype where they wanted me to go to some big Ivy League or “good” school such as Harvard, Princeton, or...preferably Stanford or MIT. They wanted me to get a good high paying job so I could care for my future family with a good stable income...and so they could retire happy that I was “successful.”
Then, I started asking myself what was success...and the problems start. Parallel with this notion that financial success (and for the sake of argument, I shall call “security”) was the goal of getting a college education, was the notion that money doesn’t equal happiness, and that I should do whatever I could to help other people because even if other people may not be good. I’d been taught we have to help those less fortunate either because it was the Humane thing to do, or because we would be paid back in karma (and perhaps a little of both). A third thing that came up is my happiness, and I should something that I would be happy doing, because if I wasn’t happy at my job or my life, then why do it?
And thus comes my dilemma...when I started college, I wanted to go into politics. Be you conservative or liberal, my goal would have been to help people, to help those that are less fortunate and somehow work in the system to raise the general standard of living for the poor, and thusly making our society better. Or perhaps, go into law (possibly concentrating on international business because I find it immensely intriguing) and do a lot of pro bono work and then go into politics via that route. I would climb the social-economic ladder and use my higher power and status to help others, possibly as a legislature, or even President, who knows. Onto my problem, recently, I’ve become very bitter about society. I’ve very much come to the conclusion that humans are stupid, and with Oregon’s denial of universal health care (hey, I don’t care if you like your health care right now, there are a lot of people that DON’T HAVE ANY). And our current administration’s complete unwillingness to listen to a large portion of the American public (no matter what side you’re on, you do have to admit that they seriously are not paying attention to the public forum). I’m starting to think what can one low person, who is actually currently below the poverty level, rise up? Oh sure, it was possible in the 1890s and earlier in the 1900s with Carnegie, Stanford, and Rockefeller, but now? HA, fat chance in Hell, and I’m not talking about the town in Michigan. But then, I would be helping people...if I succeed. That’d make me happy, right? Perhaps, but, do I want to go through all the bureaucracy? To climb to the top in my attempt to help people just to be beaten down by those with opposite views or those searching for naught but their own power? Thanks, but no thanks. A second problem with this thought, I’d have to dedicate my whole time and life to it, I wouldn’t be able to do anything else, and being recently engaged, Mayday has told me, “I don’t care what you do, as long as you’re happy, and when you walk in the door from work, you’ll be able to put it out of your mind with your shoes coat, relax and dedicate your time to your family,” which is what we’re supposed to do, right?
Then, what could I do? Teach! I think I’d love to teach, I don’t know what, my professors say I’m good at creative writing, in fact whenever I turned papers into one he’d ask “You’re a creative writing major, aren’t you?” I suppose I could teach English.... :: laughs :: that’d be a hilarious turn, even though I did well enough to be in AP English, by no means have I been able to keep track of nouns or subjective verbs nor could I remember the exact spelling and definition of a synecdoche. And, I think I’d be happy, and if I wasn't happy, at the very least, I think I’d be content. I’d be helping students learn so they could move up in the world, and I’d be doing something that I think I’d like. Then comes problem number two, Mayday also wants to teach, she wants to teach elementary (braver soul than I). That means we’d be two teachers. And, we plan on having children sometime in the future. Not any time soon mind you, for we’d also like to travel a little before. The problem is last time I checked...teachers don’t make a lot of money. And I have to provide for my family don’t I? To compound this problem, Mayday has told her parents that she possibly wants to transfer to Beloit (we have a much better teaching program than LSU, at Beloit you get a teaching certificate that is recognized in 48 states and 23 countries as well as a bachelor’s degree in another non-education field in 4 years...or 3 if you really want while at LSU it’s a 5 year program). Few things about this, her parents knows she wants to teach (her mother is a primary school teacher), and her father has continually told her that she shouldn’t because TEACHERS DON’T MAKE MONEY and there’s a lot of stress involved. Second problem, Beloit College is a small private liberal arts college, generally these things cost a lot, though Beloit is very nice with financial aid (and I actually pay less than all my friends that go to state schools who are paying in-state tuition, at University of Oregon, Oregon State University and University of Washington in Seattle). This still brings up the problem with higher education for our children, personally I don’t see too much problem with this, I look at the world a little differently from everyone else I know and am willing to spend however much money I need to get the education that I want, and I know there is a lot of financial aid out there, cost of education isn’t a factor in my book, I am willing to pay whatever I need to get a good solid education that I would be proud of having. (For those of you that disagree and say that a college education is just something used to get a stable job, I’m sorry but I think you’re completely wrong and I won’t listen to you say otherwise, I’ve had enough proof in what I’ve had to show that college is more than just putting something on a resume or technical skills). With this thought, I personally have no fear for my children getting the education they want, but still I need to provide for my family somehow.
Here comes the point where I ask the journalists: what about journalism? I keep getting told that I’m good at writing, and I actually find it very fun, and not unlike teaching, I’d be able to educate people, albeit not in a classroom, but in a slightly different medium, I won’t say in a different media...for I would be IN the Media. I would have wonderful fun writing (if you haven’t noticed, at times, I really like showing off what I write, ie my college essay). Though, I know journalists don’t make too much money either. But then...what other options do I have? I would love to do PR for a tech company, and I’d probably be rather good at it. For instance, a few friends and I held LAN parties during high school... not small get together, but actual ones with at least 20 people with tournaments, and even though we were small, I (being in charge of finances and press) was loud enough, that after we closed up shop another group offered to buy our website, and we were asked by managers of DefCon1 to go and set up a booth during the summer expo. I have enough financial savvyness to handle long term investments and the stock market, so...to me...making money doesn’t seem a problem, its the other two qualifiers that confuse me, my happiness, and helping others, these two are more important than money for me.
And thusly, comes my question, well not a question per se, but more of a request, a request for thoughts. By no means am I asking any of you or all of you to make my mind for me, I know that decision is mine, and mine alone, instead, I want your ideas, either for possible majors, or jobs, or thoughts on how I could possibly attempt to fill all three goals, or perhaps musings on life in general. I remember very clearly of something my friend said when we went bike riding “We shall go where the wind takes us.” And that takes to Bernard of Now, in my current state on my journey through life and college, hanging my proverbial hat on the rack, and sitting down to ask where the wind could, or might take me. One other thing I’m going to apologize for, and that’s using horrible horrible phrases like “hanging my proverbial hat on the rack.” Satyagraha
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If you got into advertising, you could incorporate all the things you love into your job-- writing, politics, business, creativity. . .
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
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quote: Parallel with this notion that financial success (and for the sake of argument, I shall call “security”) was the goal of getting a college education, was the notion that money doesn’t equal happiness, and that I should do whatever I could to help other people
My hearty applause to you for realizing this concept at a young age, BEFORE you're 40. It is amazing to me how many people climb that "ladder of success", have material wealth, and the suddenly realize that it hasn't brought fulfillment to their lives at all -- just unhappiness.
My older sister did just that -- very career oriented -- top of her accounting class, CPA. Worked for the largest accounting firm in the state as a V.P. Then, as she puts it, one day she realized she was "just helping rich people make more and more money, when they didn't really seem to care about anyone other than themselves, and screw the system."
So she quit, went to work as a CFO of a non-profit organization that helps foster kids. She went from making over $100,000 per year to less than half that. But she's never been happier and looks forward to each day when she goes to work, because she feels like she's making a difference for someone...
Teachers don't make a lot of money, that is true. My other sister is a teacher, but she loves her work. Many of them have secondary jobs (summer or after school) to supplement their income.
Journalist's don't make much either. There is a glut of them. I was a journalist for 15 years. I gave it up to go into computers because I am the single parent of three kids and I couldn't make enough to support them. I can still write (freelance) if I want to. Writing is not closed off to me -- I just don't do it for a living anymore. The other problem I had with journalism --well, it depends on where you work. If you get hired on by a large daily paper, there is TONS of pressure. The environment can be very liberal (a problem if you're a conservative) and unfortunately I know many journalists working for dailys that use drugs/alcohol to escape the pressure of deadlines. It was not a fun environment. I'm sure other venues would not be quite that bad.
Me --- I'm just trying to make enough money that when my kids all leave home, I can go back to farming/ranching (my first love). Like an old comic strip I once saw that said, "He's a farmboy who had to move off to the big city in order to make enough money to be able to come home and farm."
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"The problem is last time I checked...teachers don’t make a lot of money."
Teachers actually make very adequate salaries, given the hours worked. The idea that teachers are underpaid is a bit of a myth, in fact.
The reality, even, is that most teachers make considerably more per hour than all but the most successful journalists.
In fact, IMO, a family with two teachers is better off than almost any other family; they've got a combined income of at least $60,000, ample vacation time, good benefits, and the guarantee of a social connection to the local community.
Speaking as a former journalist, don't do it if you're afraid of being "beaten down" in politics; the same process happens faster and more mercilessly in journalism, and the pay isn't any better than teaching.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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I know it is trite, but have you read the book, What Color is Your Parachute? I can't say it ever helped me, but it certainly seems to have a method of discovering just what type of work would satisfy you.
Posts: 2473 | Registered: Jan 2000
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@ Tom. You're looking at 'at work' hours only, when you say teachers aren't underpaid, right? Most teachers I know must spend 2-3 hours (3-4 when they're 'green' or teaching an entirely new subject) of prep/grading time for each hour of class time. Very little of that is provided during 'work' hours (and if you're part-time, as I always was, NONE is).
IMO, part of the reason why we have a shrinking pool of GOOD teachers is a growing trend of cutting back on spending this out-of-the-classroom time.
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I think he may be looking at the fact that teachers don't work for the whole summer, or that if they do it's in addition to their normal salary.
Posts: 2432 | Registered: Feb 2001
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I'd like to echo what Farmgirl said about journalism.
I've spent the last 12 years as a writer and editor for newspapers and magazines. Luckily, most of my work has been for small-town newspapers and regionals.
With weekly newspapers, the deadline pressures aren't a daily deal but you will be expected to cover a larger number of stories on a variety of subjects. Truthfully, it can be a real blast and its a wonderful way to feel like you are an active (and hopefully positive) part of the community. For 10 of my 12 years, however, I was expected to churn out 10 - 15 stories per week (including attending governmental meetings), type up obituaries and press releases, help with layout and write ad copy now and then. It's a pretty full life, but newspaper crews are pretty tight knit and filled with quirky folks in the weeklies.
Daily papers are a whole different story. Most of the writing staff of dailies are recent J-school grads and run the gamut from the simple to the cut throat. The deadlines slam you daily and the atmosphere is electric. It can be thrilling, but in the beginning you'll be caught between the hungry shark's pool of street newbies and the Old Guard of veterans that have fought and survived their way to where you are.
Looking to write columns? You'll have a lot more fun and leeway, but less income. Also, forget a J-school (journalism) degree. Most editors could care less about that degree for a columnist. You'll live and die by the quality and quantity of copy you can churn out.
Journalism, on the large or small scale, can be a rewarding and exciting career... as long as you aren't looking to bring down the big bucks. It's hard work, but it's fun.
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Tres, most teachers find it financially non-viable to simply take the summer off. And in my experience, that often means taking short-term jobs that pay LESS than teaching does. If they're really lucky, the school they teach at has summer classes for them to teach.
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Not only that, but teachers are paid far under market value. Daycare prices alone far surpass teachers' salaries, and teachers are doing a lot more than daycare.
For instance, a typical daycare cost in many areas is $75/week-child. Lets see, at 30 children a day per teacher, that's a mere $2250 a week. Subtract around 10% for the rest of the general budget (that's the percentage in my school district), and another $250 just cause we're trying to underestimate (I know, that can be the capital projects fund, its in about the right ratio). We won't even mention transportation, because day cares generally don't provide it.
So a teacher providing just daycare would be going for around $1750 a week. Now, lets see, how many weeks is school for? Call it, oh, lets be conservative, 30. That would be $52,500 a year. And that's just for the day care function, with some very conservative estimates.
Of course, older kids are able to take care of themselves to a large extent; though other problems present themselves with that age group. But consider elementary school teachers; they certainly ARE providing a very daycare like function, AND they're teaching while doing it, not "merely" keeping the kids busy. The price I quoted there for daycare is also for pretty reasonable daycare; daycare frequently gets above $100/week-child, sometimes even up to $150 or $200/week-child in some areas.
That's why school teachers are underpaid.
Is their salary enough to live on? Sure (unlike, say, librarians'). Is it a pretty decent hourly rate? Eh, its ok there. That does not mean they're paid enough. Being paid enough means you are receiving a reasonable value for the work you do. I could argue that, say, the programmers in microsofts research division are far overpaid -- after all, they don't write the production software for the most part so there's little directly measurable value, and they could live pretty decently on, say, $60,000 a year. Of course, they earn well over $100,000 a year (some of them far over). And they deserve every penny of it. Its easy to tell why -- other people are willing to pay nearly as much for the same function -- its a market value.
And teachers are paid far under the market value given for a fraction of their function.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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Well, the simple way to make an okay living is to become a school librarian -- you're paid like a teacher (of course, you need teacher certs and such as well).
A starting out public school librarian typically makes under $10/hr. They are not classified as a librarian at that time, though, but librarian assistant. When you've got your masters or PhD and some time on the job, expect your pay to go up to as much as $12/hr (though in some areas the pay stays under $10/hr).
Of course, those are averages. High end pay for librarians sometimes gets up to a bit over $20/hr, and there are some extreme exceptions. For a very experienced librarian with a postgrad degree.
And most librarians after a decade or so get positions as department heads, which will typically assure them of at least $20/hr. But far from always.
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Oh yeah, and you're typically only paid for around 30 hours a week (though you really work more).
Most librarians I know are forced to moonlight as things like college professors in order to make ends meet.
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Yes, academic librarians make approximately what public school librarians make. Typical starting salaries are around $25,000, and average salaries are around $40,000 (though that's with a pretty high amount of experience).
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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quote:The idea that teachers are underpaid is a bit of a myth, in fact.
When Belle and I got into this a couple of years ago I did the research and posted on it. According to US Census data, no job requiring a bachelor's degree or more has a lower median income per hour--per hour at work, not even couting the at-home hours--than teaching does.
quote: When Belle and I got into this a couple of years ago I did the research and posted on it. According to US Census data, no job requiring a bachelor's degree or more has a lower median income per hour--per hour at work, not even couting the at-home hours--than teaching does.
Not to mention dollars in relation to the responsibility a teacher takes on their shoulders. What we pay teachers is almost criminal compared to what we ask of them. It says a lot for the teaching profession that our students don't turn out worse than they do.
Look at it this way, if you can get away with paying the neighbor's kid $3 an hour to babysit little Johnny while you and your wife go out for a few hours on Saturday night, why should we pay someone only $12 an hour to watch 30-some kids for seven hours a day, five days a week? Not counting the out of class time they must ALL spend grading papers, doing lesson plans and trying to connect with parents.
Posts: 2848 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote: Teachers actually make very adequate salaries, given the hours worked. The idea that teachers are underpaid is a bit of a myth, in fact.
Given the hours worked... officially, I'm guessing you mean. My school day starts at 7:50 and ends at 2:08. I get to school at 7:00 and leave each day around 4:00. That's about 45 hours per week at school.
I also spend at least an hour each night on planning and preparation, more if I have papers to grade. Add another 5+ hours. Add to this the teacher inservices, workshops, faculty meetings, department meetings, professional development hours, overnight trips, and out of school events (concerts, plays, dance recitals, etc, that your student are performing in) - none of which you are paid for.
Also add to this graduate classes you must take in order to keep your job (at least in my state), because you need to have a master's by a certain number of years after your hire. And those you have to pay for yourself.
So, yeah, we get two months off in the summer. It's nice. It's a perk, and I enjoy it. I still need to work, but its at a job I forget about when my shift is up and with far less responsibility.
Don't get me wrong, though, I love what I do. I wouldn't give up any of the aspects of my job (except maybe faculty and department meetings). I enjoy teaching and working with students and get intangible benefits that I wouldn't get at other jobs.
Unfortunately, on my salary I have no possible way of buying a home in my school district, or really even in my county (and I'm teaching on a third step of the salary guide). And renting takes more than a third of my monthly salary (plus, not getting paid in the summer means I have to bank that rent ahead of time).
So, BYU, there's a tradeoff to make. No one teaches for the money. In fact, you trade the potential for true financial security for the benefits gained from working with students and getting a chance to shape their growth.
With two teachers in the house, it'll take a few years to get settled. The salary guide goes up each year, and normally hits its stride after the first three - depending on your district. Probably roughly five or so years before you can buy a place for yourselves (provided you save well and have some savings already), then another couple before you'd be financially stable enough to have kids.
Posts: 3960 | Registered: Jul 2001
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I'm not paying my mortgage on time this month. Because $660 went to UCF to pay for the course I need to take. So forgive me if my fuse is short.
Posts: 1112 | Registered: Jan 2003
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quote:Not only that, but teachers are paid far under market value.
If they were paid under market value, they could teach in private schools (where salaries are determined more by free market forces) and make market value. However, those salaries are actually less - thus one might say public school teachers get paid ABOVE market value. That's because market value has nothing to do with what one deserves to get - it's just about what one can get in a free market.
And I suspect there's a simple reason why teacher salaries are low - and it's not because they are just set that way. It's because many many people want to be teachers, despite the downsides, and a high supply drives prices down.
Still, though, new teachers in my county make around 35,000 for the standard school year (I've looked into this for career reasons myself. ) That's nine months - it comes out to more than 45,000 if you multiplied it by 4/3 to calculate the whole year.
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Ummm, Tres, you are aware that the presence of an enforced monopoly prevents the presence of a free market?
Private schools don't pay market value because there is no free market for teachers.
An important side not: while I'm for actions resulting in free market effects influencing teacher salary, I do not think those necessarily entail getting the government out of education; I believe in a completely free market there's just not much demand for education (see: dropout rates), and removing government would result in massive economic disadvantages as a nation from an increasingly undertrained workfroce. Teachers would be much mroe highly paid (as they were back when only nobles had teachers), but there would be very few of them.
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posted
Depends on what you mean by market value. Your "supply and Demand" analysis is incorrect: actually, there is a shortage of teachers nationwide. So why is our market value so low? Not the supply, but the demand. We as a society don't give a darn. We're unwilling to pay more to attract better quality teachers. As far as public schools go, people without kids in the schools don't see the value of paying for it, and nobody wants higher property taxes. As far as private schools go, parents are already paying taxes for the public school slot their kid is not taking, so there is a tighter limit on what they will pay for education.
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Also, most of the private schools that exist nowadays have pay rates that are the results of externalities -- like feelings of religious obligation -- on the part of the teachers there. These further remove the influence of free markets.
Prep schools, on the other hand, pay quite well compared to public schools. They're a much better indicator of market value (though still not much of one, again due to the presence of public schools) since they do not rely on such externalities to attract teachers.
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posted
Good point. I've always made the generalization that private schools pay less, but I am aware of exceptions: non-profit prep schools that actually do pay more (and consequently are unaffected by the teacher shortage). The Pinecrest School in Fort Lauderdale, for instance, pays somewhat higher than the county does.
With the private schools that do pay less, I think a reverse Supply and Demand effect kicks in . . . since, rather than being a commodity as we are discussing them, teachers are in fact people themselves, so human factors play into both sides of the equation, not just that of the "consumers." Specifically, what I'm thinking about here, in addition to the "vocation" effect that keeps parochial and Christian school teachers near the poverty line, is prep schools that can pay less than public schools (though nowhere near as little as Christian schools) because they have other intangibles to offer their teachers: lower crime rates and smaller classes.
And those are two of the longest sentences I have ever posted here!
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I wonder if market forces *do* affect private schools, though. Private schools have less of the problems that plague public schools - mostly because they have a selective roster of students and can eliminate those that are problematic (booting them back to public school).
With a more favorable environment, more teachers prefer to teach at private schools for the atmosphere of learning and the limited social difficulties. With more of a supply of teachers, the private schools can pay less.
If given a choice, at the same pay, to teach at a private or public school, many teachers would choose the former, just because of environmental factors. For that reason, the private schools can pay less and still attract teachers.
The thing is, private schools and public schools are two separate products - one has far more control over the make-up of its student body. That being the case, they can charge the parents more, and pay the teachers less.
Posts: 3960 | Registered: Jul 2001
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This isn't necessarily true, either. I know many people that would be teachers, if not for the often ludicrously restrictive certification requirements. Heck, I don't even necessarily agree that teaching secondary school should require a bachelor's. By adding these requirements, we DO dramatically reduce the supply of people willing to work for under $40,000 a year.
The problem that we have is that we insist on certain outrageous paper requirements for teaching, thus reducing overall supply -- but don't actually have a high enough demand for teaching skill that we're willing to pay what people able to meet those qualifications would be worth in the business world.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
In some states (California among them) there are fewer (or even no) "paper" requirements for private school teachers.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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Well, I don't disagree with anything you've said there, Tom, except I tend to think all teachers should have at least a bachelor's degree. But that's an unexamined instinct, so it might be worth debating in its own right.
Posts: 1112 | Registered: Jan 2003
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Actually, your post makes the same point I was making: that it's not that the supply is over-high, but that the demand is low.
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I thank everyone for your thoughts and arguments, and not to derail the current discussion on education, but I'd like to follow with a couple questions.
quote:My hearty applause to you for realizing this concept at a young age, BEFORE you're 40. It is amazing to me how many people climb that "ladder of success", have material wealth, and the suddenly realize that it hasn't brought fulfillment to their lives at all -- just unhappiness.
I still learned this the hard way, when I was younger, my family was rather well off (enough to be comfortable close to 6 digits), but by my parent's very ugly divorce, Dad and I moved to Oregon to grow flowers, and now even though our supposed income is high, in all actuality we're floating rather low, and still as unhappy as before. And as the divorce showed me, being with, or without money doesn't mean you'll be happy. Though, security would still be a nice thing.
quote:Me --- I'm just trying to make enough money that when my kids all leave home, I can go back to farming/ranching (my first love). Like an old comic strip I once saw that said, "He's a farmboy who had to move off to the big city in order to make enough money to be able to come home and farm."
Could I ask what do you do? I remember you saying that you were in IT, which is a field that I already have quite a few skills in (halfway to my CCNA, and already Net+ certified), though I don't think I could actually have a career in it (I have a love/hate relationship with computers...I love them, but I hate how much I'm dependent upon them, sic: Hatrack).
quote:Teachers actually make very adequate salaries, given the hours worked. The idea that teachers are underpaid is a bit of a myth, in fact.
I won't say too much, because the topic has been nearly beaten to death here, but Mayday's mother is a teacher, and she'll attest that...teachers, in fact...don't make enough. Though...we could move to Alaska...they'd pay prosepctive teachers to move up there. Or possibly international? I would love to teach in New Zealand. As I've said the US (and most of the world) is seriously cramping my style.
[quote]Speaking as a former journalist, don't do it if you're afraid of being "beaten down" in politics; the same process happens faster and more mercilessly in journalism, and the pay isn't any better than teaching.[quote]
That's yet another problem with journalism, it's not that I'm afraid of being beaten down...I just seriously do not want to deal with the insane amount of BS that goes on, and I don't think I'd be doing enough to help people at it either, but freelancing would be a good thing to do, alongside something else, of course. As a former journalist, do you personally think it was worth the experience and your time? I'd like to be able to have a career (not a job, I don't look for "jobs") that I can go home and say "I've had a good productive day and I'm happy."
Ick and Flyingcow: If I may ask, how do you two attempt to make ends meet?
The nice thing about being a first year undergrad...is that I've still got a few years before I have to finally decide on a career...and if I still don't know...hey, that's what grad school is for! (go more debt!) Satyagraha
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It's a question of perspective. Most teachers feel they don't make enough--relative to their qualifications, primarily. This is not the same as saying we literally don't make enough to live on. Cor and I pull down about $60,000 a year, with which we can live a middle class existence. (It's getting harder and harder with the grotesque property tax increases in my county; our mortgage went up three hundred a month last year and will go up another three hundred a month this new year. But that's neither here nor there, I guess. ) Now for comparison, this is more than most "blue collar" workers earn in a year, not counting overtime pay. (On the other hand, we are each making below the median US annual income for workers across all careers, which last time I checked was around $35,000 or $36,000.) So we're certainly not poor. We just have the hubris to think that we should be paid consistently with what other workers with our level of education earn.
Now, depending on what you're used to, you might look at 60k and wonder how one would make ends meet, but the reality is many people do make do with less. We live in a pretty nice house in a very nice community, and we have one pretty new middle class car. And we live paycheck to paycheck. We do have a pension plan, but we don't actually contribute more to it ourselves, whereas other teachers do. We could do it if we made do with less, but we have made our choices about where we want to live and bring up our kids, and we are paying for them. We don't worry too much about what would happen if one of us lost a job. First of all, we have unreal job security. My school opened with a couple of math vacancies and lost a couple more math teachers after the beginning of the year. With the current teacher shortage, I'd pretty much have to have sex with a student after sharing crack with him to get fired. And beyond the shortage, I am more qualified than most high school math teachers are, and I have ten years of experience and consistently excellent evaluations, and several nominations for awards. [/brag][Actually, I'm sorry if I'm coming off like I'm bragging here, but I'm trying to give you insight into my work world, and from what I know about you, you would also be successful and in demand in any career.] And, let's say somehow I did get fired . . . I could always leave my underpaid field and make more money somewhere else. (I've had offers, so this is not just fancy.) Are there other things that could cause us to lose income? I guess so, but, like most Americans, we'll have to keep our blinders on and assume it won't happen to us.
Unlike a lot of young teachers, we don't work in the summer. It isn't really as necessary when you have two incomes, since, as I said, we make about what most people in the US make. Most schools will, if you request it, hold back some off your pay as you earn it so that you can still have money in the summer. Some teachers think this is ludicrous, because they can budget themselves, and they'd rather have the money they've earned in their bank accounts than let the district or school earn interest on it. (This is what they tell me when they take my order at Outback Steakhouse during the summer. ) Our old school would continue paying us semi-monthly during the summer, as long as we were under contract for the next year. The year we left, we got the summer money in a lump sum. Our current school system gives us a lump sum in May, but it is still easier to make ends meet this way instead of getting the money at the time I earn it. At least for me it is.
It's pretty common for young teachers to work a second job during the school year or tutor, but we seem to get by just fine without. Besides the two income versus one income factor, I guess the size of your rent and car payment is the big factor here. If you're going to teach, resign yourself to the ordinary apartment, not the luxury condo. Or you'll work yourself into an early grave.) Most older teachers don't do the two job thing, but many tutor or teach summer school. I have done both, but not for some time. During the school year, my time when I'm not doing schoolwork belongs to my family, hatrack, and my writing. During the summer, in addition to taking classes, I write and we play. I'm not giving these other things up. It seems dumb to me to take a job where one of the big perks compensating for your low income is time off, and then work during your time off. Heck, if that was how you felt, you should have gotten another job!
That's all I have time to post for now on how we make ends meet . . . if I think of more later I'll post it.
Posts: 1112 | Registered: Jan 2003
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Then again, that cheating won't last too much longer. When I came back from eight months in Europe and an internship in Atlanta, I had really no money at all and came back to live with my folks. I started substitute teaching (if you think *teaching* pays too little, try living on 65 dollars a day), but that wasn't giving me anything close to what I'd need to live on my own.
Moving to permanent subbing last year, I bumped my salary up to a cushy $130 per day - but I had to pay my own health and dental on top of that, and did not get paid for days off, snow days, or sick days. While my bank account was growing a bit, I still didn't have the income to pay rent in my area.
I was hired as a middle school math teacher this year and love what I do, and now have the money to move on. In my searches, I've realized just how difficult such a move will be.
Now, I live in West Orange, New Jersey at the moment, and teach in Montclair. This is a pretty well-off area and a pretty well-off school district, so I make more than a lot of people in different places in the country. Plus, as a math teacher (as Ick stated) I'm a hot commodity and they gave me a couple steps higher on the salary guide.
So, I'm currently making $38k, which boils down to roughly $2600 per month after taxes. My first thought of buying a small house fell flat when I discovered the cheapest two bedroom in about a twenty or so mile radius (that wasn't in Newark or similar) cost $200k, and taxes would be another $5k per year on top. Ha. No way to afford that without putting close to $50k or so down.
I'm now looking at renting, and the cheapest one-bedroom in my area runs for roughly $950/mo, down a little for living closer to high-crime areas and up considerably from there. Average would be in the $1100/mo range - which, if you'll notice, is roughly 40-45% of my salary. I can't afford that and car insurance, food, and other expenses (like furnishing said apartment) - at least without continually dipping into savings.
So, I cheat. Living at home allows me to bank some savings while I look for somewhere I might possibly afford. I've got some leads on a couple of places that might charge less than $800, and my New Years resolution was to move before I killed either parent - so, I expect to be out within the month.
But, living in a single bedroom apartment likely a ten minute walk from the "not so nice" areas of town isn't exactly what I think you're looking for. With two incomes, I'm guessing the situation would be a lot easier.
Actually, quite a few of the younger teachers I work with live with their parents. Those that don't either already have their master's degree (putting them a few thousand dollars up on the salary guide) or struggle quite a bit.
It's no wonder there are so few young teachers, and more and more "alternate route" teachers coming in from other fields later in life, who already have a house, kids and savings - and often a second income in the household. I can probably count on one hand the number of teachers in my school who are younger than 30, and can name at least 20 who are older than 55.
So, at the moment, cheating works. In a month or so, I'll be in that "struggling" department. Maybe at some point I'll get my master's and leapfrog up the guide, but that a pretty costly investment that takes several years to recoup.
Posts: 3960 | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote: I’m starting to think what can one low person, who is actually currently below the poverty level, rise up?
If no one ever tries, no one ever will. I don't mean to sound young and idealist and I don't mean to target you at all, but this attitude, in general, is very discouraging...
It's also a horrible thought that the more confused (and corrupt) America gets, the more it leans towards a... (can't think of any other word for it) dictorship.
Can't offer you any career advice until I figure out where I'm going myself!
Posts: 8473 | Registered: Apr 2003
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Idealism is a lovely thing, and what I'd like to pass on to you is that I was very idealistic about what I would or would not do until I had my son and then I realized how much I needed just in terms of providing for his basic needs: medically, housing, child care, food, clothing, etc. So, I threw a large portion of idealism out the door (otherwise you'd find me still working in small non-profits serving the less fortunate) until I get this blessed child raised and on his own.
Child Care: It costs the parents and arm and a leg, yes. The teachers recognize the least portion of this fee. Most teachers in early education and care earn well under $10.00 per hour, most often with NO benefits, including sick days, vacation, etc.
Posts: 5609 | Registered: Jan 2003
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Oh, I'm not suggesting child care teachers earn a lot, I'm suggesting that the value provided by teachers, after other costs of education are subtracted out, is still quite high.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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quote:If no one ever tries, no one ever will. I don't mean to sound young and idealist and I don't mean to target you at all, but this attitude, in general, is very discouraging...
It's also a horrible thought that the more confused (and corrupt) America gets, the more it leans towards a... (can't think of any other word for it) dictorship.
I'm actually very idealistic, though I take it with quite a bit of salt too. After all, nobody is more ambitious than someone at the age of 17 declared that he would become President of the United States, I still have it in the back of my mind, too. I remember a very specific thing that my father keeps telling me. That I should rise to a higher social status, and use my greater power and wealth to help others less fortunate...but...I can't think of any way of doing that and being happy, I want a career that I will love doing. Satyagraha
Posts: 1986 | Registered: Apr 2001
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Have you ever read "Rich Dad, Poor Dad" or "Rich Kid, Smart Kid"? There are more ways to get financial security than just with "a job." You are young and idealistic enough to make it work.
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My husband bartered to get Robert Kiyosaki's game, Cashflow. It's awesome. Maybe I'll write a parody, though, called Sane Dad, Crazy Dad. My Dad worked a modest government job all his life, but made a million in real estate.
Something you find out about Lincoln was he really valued the ability of anyone with ambition to rise. But you also find out that this most noble seeming president had to make compromises just like every successful politician. If you're idealistic, I don't know if you want to be president.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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@ Tom. You're looking at 'at work' hours only, when you say teachers aren't underpaid, right? Most teachers I know must spend 2-3 hours (3-4 when they're 'green' or teaching an entirely new subject) of prep/grading time for each hour of class time. Very little of that is provided during 'work' hours (and if you're part-time, as I always was, NONE is).![[Wall Bash]](graemlins/wallbash.gif)
I've been considering going into that field. Drat. How much DO librarians make, fugu?
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) That's nine months - it comes out to more than 45,000 if you multiplied it by 4/3 to calculate the whole year.
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) Now for comparison, this is more than most "blue collar" workers earn in a year, not counting overtime pay. (On the other hand, we are each making below the median US annual income for workers across all careers, which last time I checked was around $35,000 or $36,000.) So we're certainly not poor. We just have the hubris to think that we should be paid consistently with what other workers with our level of education earn.![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
) Our old school would continue paying us semi-monthly during the summer, as long as we were under contract for the next year. The year we left, we got the summer money in a lump sum. Our current school system gives us a lump sum in May, but it is still easier to make ends meet this way instead of getting the money at the time I earn it. At least for me it is.![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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