posted
Now that is a good argument dkw. I need to think about it some, but here are my first impressions:
Organ donation and adoption are both legal. If they were illegal, a black market would arise that would be even worse than they are now, where people do pay money for such things.
I think part of the issue is whether an action is voluntary or not. In all of the cases you mentioned above including prostitution there is potential for abuse. If a person chooses to allow organs to be used for transplant upon their death, and no medical treatment was witheld,(and there were no religious objections) I guess I dont see anything wrong with the family selling those organs instead. It would be a nice way to defray funeral costs, and leave a nest egg for my heirs if I didn't have a lot of financial resources in life.
On the other issues, private party adoptions right now often do give the mother lots of money. The same can be said for surrogate mothers, and egg donors as well, and there is nothing illegal about any of it.
If you look at it from most actual abuse to least actual abuse, I would say that organ donation is the least abused. Why? because it is the most highly regulated activity of all the ones mentioned. So I'm not for true capitalism because without regulation there is abuse.
posted
Organ donation and adoption are both legal. Selling organs and babies are not. Sex is legal. Prostitution is not. Seems parallel to me.
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posted
Kat, apply your own logic to paying for a haircut then. The end product that you recieve in payment is shorter hair. That is something done by someone else to YOUR body. Yes you could cut your hair yourself. However odds are you will have a more pleasant experience if someone else does it for you.
Now replace "hair" [and haircut ] above with sex. The logic can still hold.
posted
"The end product of modeling and acting are pictures and film."
Again, you can argue that the purpose of prostitution is to provide sexual release, NOT to own an individual. But if the ownership of the individual is the source of the complaint, surely you'd object to valets?
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posted
dkw Look at it not from the stand point of the "donor" but the "reciever" in the cases of organ donations and adoptions the parties on the recieving end ARE spending substantial amounts of money on medical and legal fees(even if some are covered by insurance can be later written off as tax deductions) even if the "donor" recieves nothing. Monetary Value is clearly attached to both organs, and babies. Maybe it is a good thing because it makes the reciever value the item that much more.
posted
<grin> If you made people (young and old) pay $50 every time they had irresponsible sex, I bet they would start valuing sex more and being more responsible!
quote:Maybe it is a good thing because it makes the receiver value the item that much more
I totally and completely reject the idea that someone should value their life or their child based on how much money it cost them.
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posted
I agree,dkw, however the fact is, a lot of people DO value stuff by the money it cost them. Part of the reason I think adoption is costly is because that makes it obvious that the parents are willing to sacrifice for their prospective child.
posted
Also in adoption the line is crossed between a business relationship and a personal relationship.
Prostitution is clearly a business relationship and not a personal relationship.
A personal relationship can include sex, but not necessarily (as in a friendship or parent-child relationship).
If sex is included, I would hope, it is done for mutual personal pleasure. But in fact, the reasons for having sex in a personal relationship are often much less straight forward, and more ulterior than that of paying for sex as a commodity. Which is more honest?
posted
It may be a purely business relationship for the prostitute, but not always so for the client.
Posts: 6367 | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
*sigh* PSI, there you've got me. My response would be, well if you can't separate the physical and emotional acts from each other you shouldn't be paying a prostitute in the first place.
But the fact is most people aren't that coldly analytical to begin with and aren't capable of actually making that distinction. I forget that my mind is too machine-like at times than the average persons.
Interestingly one of the links on one of the pages Suneun posted, is by an adjunct physics prof who was a physics teacher at USC by day and a call boy by night. I'm sure he had the analytical capability of making that distinction.
posted
I don't think that it is completely true that the end results of modeling and acting are pictures and motion pictures.
These things, in and of themselves provide nothing useful. It is in the responses that people have to these things that the real result of the labor of modeling/acting is. The pictures are used to cause a person to respond to buy or do something. The motion pictures are there to cause a person to feel a certain way. The media they are on are irrelevant. After all, if a movie stinks, that is, people don't respond favorably to it, the creators will likely not get another chance to create.
And if religious issues are not relevant, prostitution is a job that can be seen as a way to cause a person to feel a certain way. I think that if we can safely create a situation where this worldview can coexist, we should, as a society that recognizes the variety of views citizens of this country have. Not every worldview can be accomadated for safely.
Of course, this sentiment is partially predicated on the idea that allowance is not tacit approval, one that is certainly arguable.
However, a reality of the ongoing and ever evolving culture of prostitution is that it breeds contempt for these women in the johns (probably in small part an echo of the contempt society has for people who feel compelled to pay to have sex, wrongly or rightly), and many of the women transfer this, in different ways, onto themselves. This is terrible, and I think that a solution like Eddie's has a chance to stop this terrible emotional feedback system.
posted
PSI, that is true, but I think this has more to do with the expectations of various levels of prostitution.
After all, you never heard much in the way of Heidi Fleiss' high-society brothel, in the sense of customers wanting to go beyond the working relationship. Pretty woman makes for a good story, but not a good fact. I think this is due to the the perception of what that type of prostitution entails.
Streetwalkers and pimps and that segment of the prostituion culture don't have that perception, for probably a large number of reasons. I bet a good portion of this is the fact that it is illegal, and therefore "dangerous" (above and beyond the real dangers, which are never mentioned), and the pimps or equivalent do not worry about treating their employees roughly, since they are all doing something illegal anyway.
Another, perhaps more illuminating cousin occupation to prostitution might be massage. It has, to some degree, all the same emotional entanglement problems. How do people feel about massage?
posted
AJ, a Dr. Laura feature yesterday was a letter from a woman who had been a prostitute in her younger years. She said that 90% of her business wasn't even physical...it was listening, spending time, showing interest. She had a regular client for 3 years who never touched her. He just wanted someone to talk with, who made him feel important. When she asked him why he never wanted his money's worth (her words), he replied that he could get sex from his wife. He had a harder time getting her attention than her body.
I'd say that at least for him (and it sounded like the majority of her clients), it was anything but strictly a business arrangement.
Posts: 5948 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
By the way, did you guys know that Barbershops are a front for prostitution in Taiwan? I think that is so funny (in light of getting a sexcut.) That's why there's a barbershop on every corner.
I have no opinion on massage. Up until a few months ago, I had no idea that it had anything to do with anything other than the relaxation of sore muscles.
Jeni- Of course, that looks bad for psychiatrists.
posted
No, I meant, you could say a psychiatrist is selling themselves because they are allowing someone to build a sort of "false" emotional relationship with them in the same way that this prostitute's clients did with her, if that's what we are using to draw our boundary in this particular discussion.
I just meant there are a lot of different angles to this I suppose.
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She calls herself a "licensed psychotherapist"; her only certification that would even slightly suggest that is her one in marriage/family/child counseling.
posted
For the record, I was talking about massage that is, primarily, for soothing aching muscles. You still hear stories of clients becoming too attached to a massuese (sp). Also, it is a purely physical job, whose only result is a person who feels better, no photos, video, or any other intermediary.
Prostitution is fraught with some more serious perils (STDs and pregnancy), but I think this should be addressed, at least when dealing with public policy, at a pragmatic level, rather than trying to stop the idea of legalized prostitution at a religious-specific level (unless you are talking to others in your professed faith).
posted
This is completely based on information I have seen online, so you can call the validity into question. I was under the impression that massage and prostitution often go hand in hand, depending on where you are. (Notice I said often, not always.)
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quote: And transference is an ever-present concern for therapists. Mack?
I can confirm that inappropriate emotional entanglement (not just transference) is an ever present concern. I hope not as much for Mack, since she works with kids. But that’s a big part of the reason that it is not generally considered ethical (and in many states it’s not legal) for a therapist/counselor/psychiatrist/pastor to have a romantic relationship with someone they have previously counseled. (I’m not familiar with the code of ethics for masseuses. [Edit -- but I know there are such, particularly when there are liscencing agencies involved.)
quote: I was under the impression that massage and prostitution often go hand in hand, depending on where you are.
And that is why my friend who is a LICENSED massage therapist gets so ticked off by public stereotypes of her profession. For the record, it just isn't so!
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posted
Actually, it *really* looks bad for wives, which was the point of the letter. The guy just wanted someone to talk to and he couldn't get it from his wife so he went to a prostitute. For three years. Yikes.
edited to add that massages from a licensed massage therapist are heaven on earth. I've got a friend who recently got licensed, and during his training he had to have lots of people to practice on. It's good to be friends with such people.
posted
I know that this isn't so for licensed massage therapists. Isn't it sometimes true in other situations (esp. other areas of the world)? Isn't there a difference between a "massage parlour" and a salon?
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posted
In response to Jeni: It's possible that his wife would have been surprised to find out that he was going to a prostitute because she wasn't communicating with him. Maybe she would have listened more if she'd known this.
I know it's not possible to extrapolate on this situation given what little we know about it. I can say that my Dad said the exact same thing about my mom when he began cheating on her. (He insisted it usually consisted of talking to someone who "cared") I think it's a cop-out.
Oops, double post. Speak of prostitution, and a whore appears.
But I'll admit, that at the end of the day, after listening to complaining and whining from customers and kids, I don't have a lot of tolerance for it left for my husband, who has more of a right to my ear than just about anyone.
Posts: 5948 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
PSI, even if some massage places do overlap prostitution, that certainly doesn't mean most are. THe ones that are sketchy are obviously so. Believe me, there are lots of places (up here in MA at least), that are totally legitimate, and provide a variety of different massage techniques, from general therapuetic, to deep tissue, to injury-focus.
These are the places I am talking about. These are the places my previous job had someone come from, once a monce, on-site, to provide massages to people who wanted them (and paid the 15 bucks for 15 minutes).
No hanky-panky going on, believe me. However it is a profession that has many of the same issues as prostitution, and its end result is much the same as prostitution's.
posted
Scott, then you have never had a full body massage. A full body massage includes the buttocks and groin muscles and breast areas. One of the things they train professional massuses in is strategic towel wrapping and towel tucking for locations as they go through their routine. This is for two reasons, one to make the patient feel more comfortable, and secondly to establish boundaries so that the patient maintains emotional distance.
posted
Incidentally hairdressers deal with emotional entanglement issues all the time. Why do you think it is that they are known for knowing all the gossip, whether or not they choose to divulge it. Before there were therapists, their were hairdressers.
posted
Not everyone thinks every act of sex is intimate, Scott. You and I can be unable to view or participate in the act under anything but intimate circumstances, but I don't think we can speak for everyone.
posted
I think that, for myself, there's nothing wrong with massage. I wouldn't want to be massaged in any intimate areas. If for some reason I had a legitimate injury requiring massage in one of those areas, I would encourage my husband to get trained to do it.
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posted
I'm so confused by the comparison, PSI, I don't even know what to say!
edit: ah, i get it now. Well then, I take back my own comparison. My main point was that an adult making the decision to hire themselves out as a commodity, using talents or abilities they possess -- happens everywhere, every day. A woman in my area is looking for a vocalist to travel around with her to venues and sing while she plays the piano. I think this would be a fantastic oppurtunity for me -- using my vocal (physical) talent for money and to provide entertainment. How is it any different than if I were to decide to sell my sexual talents instead?
posted
I'm assuming you are making a point regarding the selling of organs and babies verses the selling of sex, ie, a woman can choose to sell herself, but a baby or and organ cannot. My response to that is, nothing that we sell or trade can decide whether or not it wants to be sold. I guess I don't really know what point YOU were trying to make.
added: Okay.
I think they covered most aspects of the talent and ability argument somewhere in the last page or two. I don't think I was around for most of it.
posted
Hey, all I’m trying to do is point out that the issue is more complicated than whether or not one approves of pre-marital sex. Which, come to think of it, is what I’ve been doing through this whole thread. There aren’t only two camps here – it is possible to accept pre-marital sex while deploring the idea that anyone would use it as a “deal-breaker” for a life partner. It is possible to accept pre-marital sex but not legalized prostitution. It is possible to not approve of pre-marital sex for reasons other than “because God says so.”
As soon as people start lumping other people’s arguments in to groups – “well, you believe “x” so you must also believe “y” I get antsy. When anyone starts saying, “the only reason you have a problem with “x” is because you believe “y” I get even more antsy. All I’m saying is that we need to look at each issue individually, and not dismiss someone’s position on one because we think we know their position on something else.
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
Dana, you are great for shades of grey!!! You are right it is a delicate issue at an individual level. I am not by any means endorsing prostitution as a life style for everyone.
posted
Actually, dana, your very point is the reason I started posting on this thread in the first place -- to show that not everyone who supported pre-marital sex viewed it as something that should be used to test out prospective partners for sexual compatibility and thus, relationship compatibility.
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] above with sex. The logic can still hold.![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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And that is why my friend who is a LICENSED massage therapist gets so ticked off by public stereotypes of her profession. For the record, it just isn't so!
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Dana, you are great for shades of grey!!!
