quote: I don't want to derail this thread, but I've got to throw this thought out. I think that many of the changes in mentality that occur after one has children are purely hormonal/instinctual, and aren't really a very good rational guide to right and wrong.
This is a difficulty I have with a lot of posts on this forum, in which someone will criticize teen sex as foolish and based on raging hormones rather than love, then come back in another thread and say "I would do absolutely anything for my child." I myself respect both urges -- the teen sex drive and the parental desire to protect young -- even while realizing that neither is really a sensible basis for decision-making and both can have harmful effects on society and individual lives.
I'll just speak from my own anecdotal evidence here. Hormonal changes may account for short-term behavioral changes in mothers, but in fathers of course nothing changes physiologically with the birth of a child. Instinctive protection responses and so forth may indeed come into play, but of course these may just as well be culturally programmed traits and at any rate are affected by culturally defined roles as well as the environment the parents were raised in etc.
At any rate, the same limitations apply to teenage sex. Either way, you are right that these feelings are not a good basis for establishing a moral code, but of course these feelings must be taken into account in defining moral codes. I think a clear and logical reason that society as a whole condones the parental defense instinct and slanders the teenage sex instinct is because generally the parental defense instinct is required to establish a stable civilization (except of course when taken to extremes) while the teenage sex instinct serves to destabilize society.
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An addendum: I'll admit I may just be farther out on the curve than most about this, but the notion of two people of the same gender having sex bothers me not at all. Just doesn't.
But that isn't to say that anything goes. If one of my sons were straight but decided he was into the kind of sadomasochism that includes humiliation and extreme pain, that would bother me. As long as the participants are careful with the pain part it's not illegal, S&M partners of opposite genders can get married without anyone complaining, and unless someone has visible rope marks or brags about their evenings no one at the office ever has to know about it. But it bothers me something fierce.
Mild bondage, ravishment fantasy, scratches and bites and other forms of mild pain I can understand, but I can't reconcile a desire to humiliate or be humiliated with a strong self-image and high self-esteem, and both of those traits are things I value highly. Compared to that, who cares if both people use the same bathroom?
[ March 01, 2004, 04:07 PM: Message edited by: Chris Bridges ]
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quote: Jacare, Chris Bridges had already stated that "Okay, it's not a perfect analogy, but it does reflect the level of concern I have about either of my sons being gay, which isn't much at all. [emphasis added]"
I missed that in reading through this thread. Would it make you happy if I amended my statement to say "Only a vanishingly small number of heterosexual parents would not care at all if their child were gay"?
quote: Chris- do you really think that they would want a happy marriage (where I assume you are defining marriage as any combination of two people regardless of sex) for their kids, or is that what you hope?
It's what I would hope any parent would wish for their kids, and is (in my opinion) one of the defining characteristics of a Good Parent.
I can see why you would say that from your point of view, but I know that there are a great number of things which I do not want my kids to do regardless of whether it makes them happy or not. For me my children's happiness is indeed my greatest goal for them, but I don't want them to happy at the expense of others (for example if one of my daughters enjoyed squashing people as she climbs the corporate ladder) nor do I want them to trade transitory 'happiness' for long-term (for example shooting up heroin to feel happy).
quote: That presupposes that that way of living was chosen. If it's not, and only the gay person in question could answer that from the experiences he or she had discovering it, then why be surprised if the child has a different path?
I think nearly everything behavioral is chosen. If a person is genetically predisposed toward addiction I still think that pursuing an addiction is a choice.
quote:Not to say that there wouldn't be some spirited arguments around the dinner table, but my sons don't have to believe what I believe for me to be proud of them.
Maybe I chose a poor example. Surely there are things which are at the heart of who you are which, if your child chose to do, would cause you extreme distress.
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Maybe I chose a poor example. Surely there are things which are at the heart of who you are which, if your child chose to do, would cause you extreme distress.
I'm guessing you wrote this while I was posting the message above. You're right, as I stated. If my sons chose lifestyles or opinions that lessened them as honorable, intelligent, contributing human beings, I would try to lead them a different direction with my words and my actions.
Homosexuality isn't one of those lifestyles.
[ March 01, 2004, 04:22 PM: Message edited by: Chris Bridges ]
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quote: I'm guessing you wrote this while I was posting the message above.
Yeah, I need to learn how to type faster.
quote: If my sons chose lifestyles or opinions that lessened them as honorable, intelligent, contributing human beings, I would try to lead them a different direction with my words and my actions.
Homosexuality isn't one of those lifestyles.
I can agree that homosexuality doesn't make one less intelligent, honorable etc. However, it is still one of those decisions that would cause me to do what I could to talk a child of mine out of it because of the far-reaching effects it has (in my view) on life after this one as well as in creating and raising a family.
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quote: Would it make you happy if I amended my statement to say "Only a vanishingly small number of heterosexual parents would not care at all if their child were gay"?
Would you amend your statement still further if I presented you with more than a vanishingly small number? *tongue only partly in cheek
I am pretty convinced that the accuracy of this statement doesn't really matter to many who make it. That is, I'm guessing it isn't really a buttress of the argument, but more an aside. Yes?
(Not setting you up, just trying to figure out how it works.)
I don't object to people/society supporting the parental-protection instinct. What I have a problem with is people believing things on the basis of their instinct, and then criticizing others for acting on instinct without showing that the instinct they oppose is harmful.
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quote: Would you amend your statement still further if I presented you with more than a vanishingly small number? *tongue only partly in cheek
I am pretty convinced that the accuracy of this statement doesn't really matter to many who make it. That is, I'm guessing it isn't really a buttress of the argument, but more an aside. Yes?
(Not setting you up, just trying to figure out how it works.)
Mostly I was just agreeing with DB in my own poorly-worded way which generally serves no purpose other than to deflect the gist of my argument away from what I meant to say into what others think they heard me say.
So, yes, it was an aside and a pointless one at that, since I already said that I agree with DB.
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Jacare - and that's where we have disagreed before, and will again, so I'm very glad we get along anyway Posts: 7790 | Registered: Aug 2000
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quote: don't object to people/society supporting the parental-protection instinct. What I have a problem with is people believing things on the basis of their instinct, and then criticizing others for acting on instinct without showing that the instinct they oppose is harmful.
I can agree with you on that.
quote: Ahhh, that makes more sense.
Maybe there is yet hope that I will one day communicate effectively.
quote: Jacare - and that's where we have disagreed before, and will again, so I'm very glad we get along anyway
Yes, we certainly can.
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As a lefty, I'd prefer that my children were right-handed because it's an inconvenience and there are few benefits to being left-handed. Perhaps this is because there isn't much of a left-handed culture and I don't see it as an integral part of my identity. However, I wouldn't want to force a naturally left-handed child to switch to right-handedness because I think that causes more problems than it solves and might be traumatic for him or her. I guess I feel the same way about homosexuality. I would rather that my children were heterosexual to spare them the pain of living in a society that doesn't fully accept this behavior, and because I'm on the fence about the morality issue. But I wouldn't try to change them or love them any less if that's the way they were born.
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What if being left handed keeps someone from being autistic?
Being left handed is a right brain trait, and being autistic is a left brain trait. Realizing that this is somewhat genetic, what if the genetics so combined that the left-handed part forces them to use more of the brain than the autistic gene normally lets them use? What if gender contributes as well. Someone with a Y chromosome is more likely to be autistic than someone with two X's, it is documented and it is due to the way normal brain functions are distributed between the halves in different genders.
CT tell me if I'm out to lunch and I know this doesn't really belong in this thread, but it is something I've been wondering about traits overlapping and cancelling each other for a while.
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I haven't heard that before, AJ. Being left-handed is probably better than being autistic. Still, being left-handed is pretty darn inconvenient and possibly dangerous when operating heavy machinery designed for right-handers. Anyhow, my little brother is right-handed, and he's perfectly normal. In fact, he's a lot more athletic and social than either Funny or I, both lefties. And when he writes on chalkboards, it doesn't smudge. Posts: 3546 | Registered: Jul 2002
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I will not entertain the idea of having my own children until such time as I am financially and realistically capable of providing for them the kind of life that I myself would want to grow up in.
That said...
If I had children I would want them to be whatever they felt comfortable being. This is because I grew up in a time and inside of communities where that was basically impossible for me to do, since I am homosexual.
On another level I would be happier to have a gay child because I would like to personally share in a coming-of-age experience that might have mirrored my own, had my circumstances been different than what they were. It would be quite a learning experience to watch someone (especially someone of my own genetic material) grow into themselves without having to deal with a home life that was inherently unwelcoming to their basic personality. To be a part of it would be an honor.
On still another level I know that pressures at home are not the only thing gays have to deal with. They are a minority and will always be subject to the discomforts of minority status wherever they go, whether or not my government eventually recognizes them as equal citizens. So for that reason I would be perfectly happy having a straight kid.
In fact, David, I think that the memetic reality of parents everywhere hoping against having gay children is that humans are not all that great at valuing diversity. Were society to eventually recognize homosexuality as within the normally occuring range of human dispositions, and further recognize that it was a facet that does nothing to inhibit their ability to contribute to society without great effort (such as the aforementioned blindness), people will still, like you, prefer to have children who are more like themselves.
And that's absolutely okay.
On yet *another* level I believe that it is also YOU who is being a bit disingenuous here, David. For while I have no doubt that you would prefer to have straight kids to gay kids, I also have no doubt that, once you HAD a gay kid, your preferences would cease to matter anymore.
I remember, for instance, the outpouring of love that this community extended to the Card family several years ago when their youngest son died from complications related to his illness. Parents do not wish to have disabled kids, but as any of us familiar with the Cards' expereinces are already aware, the uniqueness of having a child who does not fall into normal categories carries with it its own special value.
And having already raised two decent people in the Bowles philosophy, I have no doubt that you too would be able to love, cherish and nuture a homosexual child and perhaps in the process even learn a few things from them.
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JohnKeats- Thank you for your answer. Though I've never thought of homosexuality in the same light as disability, your analogy to love of specialness certainly holds true. I like that.
It is difficult to come up with fair comparisons on this subject; I had difficulty using the one I just did because of the possible connotations that it entails, but you "get it" so I don't have to explain further. Thanks.
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quote: As a lefty, I'd prefer that my children were right-handed because it's an inconvenience and there are few benefits to being left-handed. Perhaps this is because there isn't much of a left-handed culture and I don't see it as an integral part of my identity.
See, that's strange to me, because I'm left-handed and wouldn't care one way or the other if my child was left-handed or not. I've always been able to use right-handed scissors and such -- I actually revel quite a good deal in my left-handedness, being only 10% of the population, getting to have my own left-hander desk in college classrooms (always in the back and against the walls! glory be!) And i think i like it because it just shakes things up a bit. When I played softball it was a definite advantage, and i got a cool Black left-handed glove instead of the boring brown righty gloves. And i always feel a camraderie when i see another person is a southpaw too! It's annoying to write in pencil for extended periods of time, but it's a small price to pay for being wicked cool and left-handed! Posts: 3516 | Registered: Sep 2002
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If I had a left handed kid, I would probably punch him a lot and keep him locked in the closet.
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