posted
Ok, this thread may not go too far but I had an interesting(at least to me) thought this morning related to the thread concerning Hispanic culture, immigration and America...
Given that it has been theorized that by a certain year in the near future that over half of US citizens will be Spanish speaking. As I understand it, that statistic represents purely spanish speaking Americans.
If a military draft were to take place, wouldn't that mean that a full half of the eligable males in our society would be exempt because of the language barrier? It would be very impractical and dangerous for the military to carry over the bilingual tolerance that society instills today as soldier need to be able to keep up in fast paced perilous situations like todays combat can represent. Is this a valid (though purely hypothetical) arguement for a language qualification to citizenship? And if anyone knows, what do other bilingual countries do about this dilema?
Posts: 181 | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
I hypothetically argue that anyone posting on Hatrack must know how to spell argument and literacy in the title of their thread before posting their argument.
posted
To me, one aspect of being a citizen is the responcibility to defend ones country when called upon. And if the inability to speak the common language, the language of the countries hereitage, in which all of it's sacred documants are written, prevents a citizen from fulfilling that requirement, then I think I have an issue. Again, hypothetically, if there is conflict in which the military draft had to be reinstituted (not very likly I admit) there would likly not be an oppurtunity for the military to teach it's hispanic soldiers english before being pressed into service.
Are there other emergency situations when this might occur? ER doctors, EMTs. Certainly there are careers where those who can not speak english are limited currently. Even educators? Am I the only one who has had the experience of having a foreign professor that truely no one could understand even though they appaently spoke english?
Posts: 181 | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
Hi, PaladinVirtue! I missed your debut at Hatrack.
You might want to check out how Canada deals with the English/French multilingual nature of their country. It's fascinating.
Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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It is by opinion that one language should be taught to everyone in the world. I don't care which one, whether it is one currently used or not; but to ensure that people from different countries can discuss there problems with out a translater, which undoubtly will have some bias and will mistranslate or translate in a way that the argument is misunderstood. Not that the translater will neccesarily do so purpose, but do to so many words having different meanings and what have you it is bound to happen.
The argument always arises that people will lose their cultural heritage, and my answer remains the same as it always has. I don't care if people from one nation learn their "native" language, but they had better be learning the "universial language" as well.
But in regards to a English literacy test to become a United States citizen, I would have to say that I would not support such a bill because it promotes nationalism, which in the end will cause a contest of wills. Just look at World War I, WWII, or even our recent expeditions into the Middle East.
Until the language barrier is broken we will continue to do this:
(hops off his soap box, and hopes he got off before the soap box tumbled down the hill) Posts: 129 | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Given that it has been theorized that by a certain year in the near future that over half of US citizens will be Spanish speaking. As I understand it, that statistic represents purely spanish speaking Americans.
I'm pretty certain this is incorrect. It actually counts bilingual people.
-o-
Baseball teams seem to manage pretty well under the circumstances you describe. How complex are the communication needs of a private? Walk here, go there, shoot at the bad guys, duck when the bullets fly. In the sixties, were people in fact exempted for not speaking English, as your post assumes?
Posts: 1112 | Registered: Jan 2003
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quote: Are there other emergency situations when this might occur? ER doctors, EMTs
Speaking as an EMT -- we have already run across many instances of times where our PATIENT speaks only Spanish, and no one on our crew speaks Spanish, so treatment is difficult at best, nearly impossible if they are frightened or confused. Many times have had to wait 20-25 minutes for an interpretor to arrive to help out.
I see this becoming gradually less of a problem, though, as English-speaking emergency workers take courses in Spanish just to address this problem. So we are coming to THEM -- but I don't know if they are making the same effort to learn our language.
quote:but they had better be learning the "universial language" as well.
Tower of Babel, revisited.
No, I think everyone realizes eventually things will have to come to a central, common language. Whether by design or by default, it will eventually happen.
posted
The main problem that the military/intelligence community has is a lack of sufficient number of people who can fluently speak a foreign language.
It's easy to immersion-teach a recruit into a good understanding of militaryAmericanEnglish. What's hard is teaching someone the civilian nuances&connotations&slang of a foreign language.
Posts: 8501 | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote: No, I think everyone realizes eventually things will have to come to a central, common language. Whether by design or by default, it will eventually happen.
Unfortunately, it looks more and more like that lingua franca will be English. While that is convenient for me, it makes me sad for the entire world. What a screwball language!
Out of curiosity, does anybody here speak Esperanto?
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote: Don't people already have to know English in order to take the citizenship test?
I think this may be because the tests are administered in English.
I don't think we actually have an official language in the US, am I wrong?
So there's still room to make SPANISH the official language, since soon Spanish-speakers will be the the majority. AND I think that everyone should have to learn SPANISH in order to join the military so that everyone can be understood.
posted
My best friend's husband works for the INS. There is an english literacy requirement to become a citizen, but it is extremely simple.
quote:English language and American history requirement: An applicant must demonstrate literacy in English. The INS takes into consideration the applicant's education and background. Until recently, only applicants who were over 50 years old and had been legal permanent residents of 20 years or more were not subject to the English literacy requirement ("50/20 rule"). Now, however, an applicant over 55 who has been a legal permanent resident for at least 15 years is also not subject to the literacy requirement ("55/15 rule"). Persons eligible for the 50/20 or 55/15 waivers are still required to pass the U.S. government and history exam, but may be questioned through an interpreter.
I asked him about this recently, and he said that the applicant has to be able to write a simple sentence, and he uses the "street guide" to evaluate it. That is, if he picked up the paper on the street, and could figure out what it was supposed to say, it passes. The citizenship test is 10 questions randomly chosen from 100 US history and civics questions on a computer database (for example, who was the first commander in chief of the US armed forces?), and the interviewer reads the question to the applicant (in English) and the applicant has to answer 6 of the 10 correctly to pass. That is the extent of the literacy requirement to become a naturalized citizen.
Posts: 26 | Registered: Dec 2003
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posted
I do think Spanish-speaking people who immigrate to the United States today will do themselves a big disservice by never learning how to speak fluent English. Although it's becoming increasingly necessary for businesses, service and care providers, and the English-speaking citizenry in general to learn to communicate in Spanish as well, non-English speakers are going to be at a disadvantage most everywhere they go in this country. If I moved to Mexico or to any other primarily Spanish-speaking country, I would expect to have to learn to speak Spanish fluently or be at a big disadvantage. I am all for learning someone's language so I can communicate with them when they come to live in my community. It's common sense that they would learn the language of the community they've moved into as well, so that they can participate in that community.
Even at church on Sunday, non-English speakers run into a big problem. In the last ward I was in, we had several families from South America who spoke very little English. We set up headphones and enlisted anyone who spoke Spanish to perform live translation during sacrament meeting. Due to sheer lack of resources, however, those people could not participate in the other classes, but had to form separate groups for Spanish-speaking classes. So we hardly saw them at church and couldn't get to know them as well. They were at a disadvantage, even after everything we could do.
Posts: 5957 | Registered: Oct 2001
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posted
I should point out that I think all immigrants should learn English.
But only because it makes sense in order for things to run smoothly.
But I don't think it should legislated, and if the national language of the US became Spanish, I wouldn't be opposed to learning it.
Posts: 6367 | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
What I am hearing reading all of these responces is that:
A) People who can not speak passable English are at a distinct social and economical disadvantage.
B) It can be a problem, potentially life threatening, when someone is unable to speak the common language in an emergency.
C) That there IS a english requirement to become a citizen ( something I was not aware of, thanks Polly ) but that it is extremely simple.
D) Some argue that the responcibility lies more with the current citizens to learn spanish, or other languages, than it is for new citizens or others to learn english because the US does NOT have an official language. And apparently to make english an official language would be un-american?
posted
I just don't understand why it is un-american, anti-diversity, anti-freedom to require people to learn about and speak in the language of the country that was founded to respect and protect their freedom when they become citizens? No one is saying that they must lose their own cultural heritage. But once they become a US citizen, I think it is rude for them not to embrace the culture of this country. Including it's language.
It seems to me like we are now trying to excise culture from state in the same manner we seperate "church and state". There is no preferred culture/history/language. And it is PC faupaux(sp?) to disagree with this. Nothing is distinctly American. As long as you live here now, then you are as american as anyone. Not a good idea IMO to forget what this country is and where it came from.
While the above sounds so exclusive, that is not my intention. It's not that we don't have plenty of room here for those seeking the same oppurtunity and freedom that my ancestors came here for. Ideally I want us all to be included in this nation. But one step to making that happen is all speaking the same language.
posted
Ok now this is my subject, you see I am a linguist. My specialization is in Spanish and Japanese, yet I also speak French, Italian, German, some Russian, Afrikaans, a smattering of Greek and Malasian, and a proficiency in American Sign Language. (not to mention that pesky American language...English)
I find it amazing that in travelling to any other country as a tourist, you can find someone that speaks enough English to help u find a hospital/bathroom/nightclub...etc. ;yet, to actually work in non English speaking areas you must know enough of the language to work and produce results.That means you must be proficient in the language at least the local dialect, yet when you come to America as an immigrant and wish to become a citizen...you can have special teachers to teach you all that you need to know..in your native language! To actually take the test...Vietnamese, yup we've got it, Laotian, yup got that too...Spanish...of course 26 countries have Spanish as their main language. (a coworker just took the test and passed..as did her Laotian mother..who took the test in ...not English..you guessed it..Laotian!) Why is it that we must make exceptions for everyone else when no other country (besides England) makes the same exceptions for us? In an emergency ,when a Russian woman who speaks a little English calls 911 like she sees on tv... to help her husband who is unconscious on the floor, and there is no interpreter available, what can she do? Yes, the number automatically comes up on the 911 system with the address and all that, but while she's waiting for EMS to get there and help, he dies because she couldn't understand what the 911 operator tells her to do to help....she then blames herself because she coudln't understand and goes right out to learn English (another co-worker, who has 11 siblings, had this happen when all of the kids were at school.)
So what if people speak another language besides English? I think it is an excellent idea that all people become fluent in a second language, but I also think it's an excellent idea to have at least an understanding and ability to converse in spoken and written English here in the US.
This may just be my opinion, but I speak from experience and a continual study of other languages and cultures. Most of my international friends have found the easiest way to actually learn English.....is to watch tv! What an entertaining way to learn!
posted
"And apparently to make english an official language would be un-american?"
Yep. If Americans had wanted to hafta speak English, Americans wouldn't have kicked the English out*.
* Okay, okay. The English didn't wanna deal with a bunch of spoiled brats when there was a whole world to conquer with richer lands to exploit.
Posts: 8501 | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote: "Meanwhile, the poor Babelfish, by effectively removing all barriers to communication between different races and cultures, has caused more and bloodier wars than anything else in the history of creation."
While the idea of a universal language is appealing, the pragmatics of it are simply horrifying. To start off with, no matter what language you choose, there are going to be avid supporters and detractors of it. I'd be surprised if that step along didn't lead to a fair amount of bloodshed. Second, being able to speak a second language, even just part of one, reveals to me a certain level of cultural maturity. (Yes, this does mean I find the American culture in general to be horribly immature, but that is another thread). I find it an interesting factor when I'm attempting to gauge people as to whether or not they've taken it upon themselves to learn a second language. Supposing somehow a single language was chosen, how would it be enforced. There are some countries who do not have the resources to teach all their children two languages. There are probably even more countries who would simply refuse to do so (for reasons of finance, culture, pride, etc.).
I believe the consistent hindrances encountered by not speaking the native language of a country will either lead to a person developing a profound level of patience, or a desire so strong that they take it upon themselves to learn said language. For example, I'm likely in the minority of non-Spanish speakers here. When I decide I will be living in this area for a decade or more, it is a really strong possibility that I am going to learn Spanish. Now, just because I can't even answer a serious thread without proving myself a hypocrite, I do believe that certain aspects of daily interaction require a proficiency in the native language (voting, driving, simple ability to understand laws, etc.). The ability to understand that level of English should probably be required for citizenship (in any country).
Feyd Baron, DoC (who is posting with this name just to dispose of the annoying "New Member" title.)
Posts: 3 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
I wonder how many american-born, american-citizen students of this country would pass such a literacy test.
Especially in very poor southern school districts.
Then again, if this test were a requirement for american-born people to be citizens, then maybe people in Florida wouldn't have mucked up their ballots so much.
posted
I think there is something kind of like a straw man going on here, when people post to argue that it is bad not to know the language of the country you live in, and that not knowing it can cause you to lose opportunities, receive inferior service, and even die. Is anybody actually arguing that it is not desirable for people living here to learn English? I don't think so. Of course it is in every (US) American's best interest to learn English. And if you don't, well, you reap what you sow.
The issue here is whether or not it's the government's place to enforce that, and raise the bar on forcing people to learn English in order to gain citizenship. I would say that it's not. In my mind, this country has always stood for living and letting live, as much as possible. So I just don't see this as being the government's place.
quote:I just don't understand why it is un-american, anti-diversity, anti-freedom to require people to learn about and speak in the language of the country that was founded to respect and protect their freedom when they become citizens?
I think sometimes our patriotic fervor as a nation runs high, and we start thinking about what we should make others do in order to make them better Americans. But, as I said above, I think we lose sight of what makes America special when we do this.
Incidentally, I object to your characterization of this as a literacy requirement. Not knowing English does not make you illiterate. I'm trying not to read too much into that particular word choice.
Out of curiosity . . . would this be a test for naturalized citizens only, or for US born citizens as well? If the draft is the basis of your concern, do we exempt females, since they are not registered with selective services--or do we deny them citizenship? What about handicapped people who would be unable to serve? What about profoundly mentally challenged people? Would one be denied citizenship if one were a Native American who only spoke, say, Cherokee?
quote: No one is saying that they must lose their own cultural heritage. But once they become a US citizen, I think it is rude for them not to embrace the culture of this country. Including it's language.
We need a term for this . . . it isn't quite a strawman, but it's similar in that it is portraying a situation that, in my opinion, doesn't actually exist. I work in a heavily ESL area, and of course I come from an immigrant background myself. The only situation I know of where people genuinely have no interest in learning English is very elderly people (which is not to say that all elderly are this way). Immigrants know that all the best opportunities go to people who can speak English, and all the best entertainment is made for them as well. Virtually every ESL student--which is dozens--and non-English speaking adult under 70 I know wants to learn English and is trying to learn English. Some of them simply try and fail. As a math teacher, I know that no matter how hard I try, some of my students will simply fail to learn math. It's a shame, but life will go on for them. They will find a career where their need for math is minimal, and nobody will judge them for it once they are out of school. Frankly, learning a new language as an adult, once the brain's "window of opportunity" for languages has closed, can be extremely difficult. Very few of us can say that we have successfully learned a second language after the age of 13 or so--I have not. So I would say that the people who have not learned English are not refusing to do so because they are rude and hate America. I would say they have failed to learn English because it's a hard task.
As far as embracing the culture, I would argue that immigrating and seeking to become a citizen are signs that somebody already has embraced our culture.
-o-
I have another point I want to make, but I have this bad habit of placing important points at the end of long posts, past the point where people's eyes have glazed over, so I think I'll hit submit and then post it by itself . . .
Posts: 1112 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
Another important point that I raised in Storm's thread (but that might need more emphasis than I gave it): people see statistics on how many people can't speak English, and see these percentages stay the same over a period of time, and conclude that the people who don't speak English are not learning it. In fact, we have a continuing influx of immigrants, and so the more realistic scenario is that most immigrants do learn English, but their numbers are replaced by new immigrants. To make it concrete, suppose I take a poll and find that there are a dozen people in my neighborhood who speak no English. Over the next ten years, nine of them learn to speak English, but another ten non-English speakers move into my neighborhood. I take the survey again, and find that now there are thirteen people who can't speak English, and conclude that they are not bothering to try . . . I mean, they had ten years and none of them managed to learn English!
(This is not my apologistic conjecture, by the way . . . this is a legitimate criticism that is raised by one of the sources I cite in the other thread.)
And so the existence of large numbers of immigrants who are not interested in learning English and make no move to do so is a mathematical illusion.
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