posted
Ok you believe Jesus is there, but not as fully as in the "exalted" state. Can't you see that someone non-LDS would get upset over this. To me it is a lot like the Caste system in India.
quote:Our Church today isn't even called Mormon. Mormon just is slang for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. The Church of Jesus Christ is the Kingdom of God on this earth. I am sorry that my use of slang has caused so many people anxiety. I guess I bought into the importance of membership into our church the prophet has emphasized.
That's not really the point I was making. Yes, "Mormon" is slang for "Latter-day Saint." Nobody before Joseph Smith's time was a Latter-day Saint, but I'm sure that many people before the Restoration are going to the celestial kingdom. Thus, being a Latter-day Saint is not requisite to exaltation.
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posted
Ummm...well to be honest, besides the people getting upset over just us thinking we're right and they aren't (which is just plain not going to go away because I do think I'm right, which by defenition, makes them wrong) no I can't. I mean to be upset about it you'd have to assume that Christ, who is perfect, wouldn't give you everything you could enjoy, which is the whole point anyways.
posted
Hobbes I view it more as someone who already has a perfectly good Trek bike , being told that oh no you need training wheels because you aren't a good enough rider for that bike. When it is the bike I sacrificed to buy in the first place.
posted
Really? I think I'm still not getting it. The worse thing that can happen to you in the Mormon after-life (this is once you've been judged at the Second Coming fyi) is for you to remain in a place and situation similar to the one you're in now. Everything else is much, much better.
Maybe it should be phrased as, everyone get's really nice Trek road bikes, but you guys who really seem to get riding, you can have a bike that's even better! (Not that there is such a thing ).
quote:Ok you believe Jesus is there, but not as fully as in the "exalted" state. Can't you see that someone non-LDS would get upset over this. To me it is a lot like the Caste system in India.
Huh?
quote:I view it more as someone who already has a perfectly good Trek bike, being told that oh no you need training wheels because you aren't a good enough rider for that bike. When it is the bike I sacrificed to buy in the first place.
AJ, we believe that you will end up in the kingdom that you want and deserve. The only person holding you back will be yourself.
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quote:(which is just plain not going to go away because I do think I'm right, which by defenition, makes them wrong)
See this is exactly what I see Bob arguing against! The "by definition you are wrong" attitude. You can say the first part, without including the second part. And while you may believe the second part, it is rude to say if we are all going to get along in this world.
quote: I'm sure that many people before the Restoration are going to the celestial kingdom. Thus, being a Latter-day Saint is not requisite to exaltation.
I am sure of that too. But I am also sure that if the Mormon church is true, then anyone before the restoration who becomes exalted will have to accept proxy baptism first. Since baptism is how we become members into Christ's earthly kingdom (church), and those baptism are performed by members of his earthly kingdom (whatever dispensation), then they are accepting that Mormonism is true. I think we both agree and are just talking around each other.
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posted
And it's ridiculous to say that you should never claim to be right because that implies that somebody else is wrong. That's not how the world works. The only way to avoid it is to get everyone to agree, and that's simply not going to happen.
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quote: But I am also sure that if the Mormon church is true, then anyone before the restoration who becomes exalted will have to accept proxy baptism first.
Even Christ? If someone was baptized by the proper authority in a previous dispensation, then they don't need a proxy baptism.
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posted
I think you are misunderstanding. I do understand what you believe. And I'm telling you how I then interpret it, because I'm non-LDS and DON'T believe it literally. And to me it sounds like a *glorified* caste system regardless of what you think it is.
posted
AJ, Purgatory is seen as a temporary (whatever that means in an eternal context) setting. If someone makes it to purgatory, they will make it to heaven. ALthough the name is retained solely by the Catholic Church, many Protestant denominations still believe in a "middle state" that is similar to Purgatory.
Limbo is seen as a place of happiness but lacking the beatific vision of Christ. It is seen as either temporary, for those waiting for Christ's Ascension, or permanant, for those unbaptized but without grievous sin on their soul.
posted
AJ, I don't go around just saying people are wrong randomly. But fundemantly, I think that there is a truth, I've gone to a lot of work to figure out what it is, and once I found, what was to my satisfaction, the truth, I believed it. If I am right, then it has to mean that most people alive today are wrong. I refuse to sugar coat it, or deny it. This is not to say I think have complete truth, or everyone else is always wrong, but merely belonging to a religion (a Christian one at any rate) implies that you know something and not everyone else beleives you. Personally, I think explaining that I do indeed think that other's are wrong about the after-life is perfectly relvant in this thread. If someone's offended then I really am truely sorry that I offended them, but this is fundementally what I beieve, and what I'm trying to explain is what I believe.
quote:Even Christ? If someone was baptized by the proper authority in a previous dispensation, then they don't need a proxy baptism.
Of course. I never denied (infact I made it a point) that prieshood authority existed from the time of Adam. We are talking about people who did not accept baptims in this life--hence my use of everyone being defined to that portion of the population. Christ, of course, accepted membership into his Kingdom through baptism to show obedience and example.
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posted
You're right, AJ. Our missionaries do not take the approach of "your beliefs are wrong and ours are right." Instead, they try to take shared beliefs and then add to them.
Okay, Alexa, I think I understand you now.
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posted
Does anyone know the difference between recieving the Holy Ghost and having the influence of the Holy Ghost? If the Ghost can inspire you, why do you need it at confirmation?
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posted
To be honest when I first heard about the Mormon idea of the afterlife, I thought "How Nice. They've solved lots of the pressing problems with normal Christian theology."
But the more I think about it the more it becomes offensive to me. Either Christ's salvation applies to everyone in Heaven equally or it is pointless and completely contrary to what He taught while alive on this earth (even Paul endorsed the idea of "equality and freedom in Christ")
So when I believe in Heaven (which I vacillate on about half the time I'm agnostic) I can't believe in a Heaven with boundaries between people (I know if you are at the higher level you can travel down but there are boundaries the other direction), to me that is a totally foreign concept to the Gospel as I read it.
quote: The worse thing that can happen to you in the Mormon after-life (this is once you've been judged at the Second Coming fyi) is for you to remain in a place and situation similar to the one you're in now. Everything else is much, much better.
From my understanding of what I have read, Christ's coming will not be the final judgement. It will be "a" judgement, to be sure, but your own personal Final Judgement happens at the time of your own personal ressurrection. Those who are already members of Christs church are more likely to be facing their FJ at the time of Christ's return because they have enough knowledge to live by. Many many people won't face that until sometime during the millenium or after it is all done.
AJ: Brief rundown on LDS Plan of Salvation: Celestial K.=presence of Father. Terrestrial K.=presence of Christ Telestial K.=presence of the Holy Ghost. I am not sure that they are separate "places". They may be, but I think the more important distinction is that they are a separate sort of "existance". Is what we are saying offensive? Yeah, I can totally see that it is. That is why a lot of people are upset. But I will say again, none of us are going to dare claim that just being LDS qualifies you for Celestial Glory. That is between them and God.
To receive a celestial glory, an individual must accept all the commandments they receive from God with a willing heart and do their best to follow them. Ignorance doesn't work, and having the knowledge and not living up to it doesn't work either. When we receive these commandments isn't important. For many it will be after this life. It is the willingness of heart and faith that really matters. A rebellious heart that rejects God's words will not be able to bear a celestial glory. They wouldn't want to be there. They'd hate it. But for those who do receive all that God has to offer with an open heart, they will be able to receive it.
Realize that part of celestial glory is either becoming like God and personally continuing His work or assisting with that work (there are differing degrees of glory even within the Celestial Kingdom). These are people that God has proven, that He trusts implicitly because they can be trusted. This life is a test. Those who have done all that God has asked them to do, are given huge responsibilities. If you are not interested in those heavy responsibilities, a "lesser kingdom of glory" will still be more than your fondest desires, IMO. No, I dont' imagine anyone would be disappointed with what they receive. We ALL are going to get better than we deserve. (Uh, except for those who accept none of God's gift.)
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posted
Another thing about the "we're right, you're wrong" attitude that just cropped up recently, is the whole coffee, tea and liquor thing. It has been stated by several people that it was a very common belief at the time by at least several U.S. Christian denominations. (I know people in normal Christian denominations that believe this today and did long before much of the documentation started coming out about damage to one's health) And yet those statements about other denominations believing the same things have been somewhat blatantly ignored in a couple cases to believe that "you" (generic) had a better handle on The Truth about coffee, tea and liquor. I find it[the LDS ignorance on an historical subject]laughable.
posted
bev I understand what the LDS church teaches. I was just trying to explain my reaction as a non-LDS to it. Then you try to re-explain it. It is basically what I've already heard. I'm simply telling you my reaction to it which remains the same.
This is *exactly* the same thing that is going on with the baptism issue. You <generic> keep re-explaining yourselves thinking that the explanation will make it less offensive. When the re-explanations (after awhile) eventually become offensive to the other side because yes we *heard* you the first time! We are just telling you what we think. I've posted very little in this thread until the 22 and 23 pages but I can assure you I've read all the way through it several times. And after consideration felt it time to put my oar in.
posted
Jon Boy I wasn't trying to be rude. I apologize. But how do you <generic> expect me to believe everything else you say when your beliefs have skewed the factual view of relatively recent history?
And people are still insisting they are right on the subject instead of gracefully saying, "oh I was unaware of that bit of history."
AJ (And I really did burst out laughing in front of my computer when the claim was originally made about Mormons having the whole coffee tea and liquor abstention thing before anyone else)
posted
Alexa, difference between influence of the HG and gift of the HG IMO: The Spirit (the influence of the Holy Ghost) influences all mankind inasmuch as they are willing to be led by it, but will not abide with that person. It will come to testify the truth of something, most often. Having the gift of the Holy Ghost transforms you, if you receive it. Just because it is given, doesn't mean it is received.
I look at the apostles of Christ as an example. Before receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, they were natural, weak, and "human". The influence of the Holy Ghost had testified to them the truth of Christ and the gospel, but their minds still couldn't grasp what the gospel really meant. Their faith was still in "infancy". They became afraid numerous times. After receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, they were fearless. Their minds were opened and they understood more intrinsically the principles of the gospel. They were deeply, profoundly transformed.
Receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost is essential to the transformation that we must go through to truly receive Christ. Have I received this transformation personally? That is a difficult question to answer. I fear that I have not, and that is not good. If we don't receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, we have not truly accepted Christ. Of course, to truly receive it, it has to be given by the proper authority. It is done by the laying on of hands.
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quote:But the more I think about it the more it becomes offensive to me. Either Christ's salvation applies to everyone in Heaven equally or it is pointless and completely contrary to what He taught while alive on this earth.
Or, in other words, "I think my view is right and the the Mormons' view is wrong." See? It's pretty near impossible to talk about beliefs without saying that someone else is wrong.
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posted
Banna, I can see that it's irritating to be told you're wrong, and I absolutely agree that missionaries would not be terribly persuasive if they said things like that, but I'm not sure why you're upset with Jon Boy.
*thinks*
Unless this is a missionary thread, in which case we almost ALL need to go back to the missionary guide, because I'm certain that my missionary self would have kicked me by now.
I suppose I'm saying that sometimes people don't...couch things in the most persuasive terms when they're not seeing themselves as official representatives. Representatives, sure, because you can't get away from it, but not the offical kind.
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posted
Sorry, AJ, I thought I was giving new information with the "responsibility" thing.
On the coffee, tea, alcohol thing, let me rephrase what I said before: my point was not that the LDS church was the only church to forbid such things. I did verbally recognize that other churches have. I gave it of an example of a religion being ahead of the general knowledge of society rather than behind. God said: "These things are bad for you," before science did. Whatever other religions forbade, coffee, tea, and alcohol were very strong practices in society at the time. Still are. It was not LDS vs. other religions, it was LDS (or "a" religion) vs. society.
But I also said that we believe God (according to LDS revelation) said: "It is bad for your health" and I am not aware if other churches believed they were bad for your health, bad for other reasons (like addiction, expense, abuse) or didn't say why they were bad. I simply don't know.
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Above I was just trying to explain my own thought processes with regards to LDS teachings and what has happened on this thread.
I wasn't trying to target JonBoy (other than in the one specific response) and I apologize if you felt targeted. I tried to make that clear by specifying <generic> you's
posted
Dude, this thread seriously needs a new name. Let's vote on what the new name should be. How 'bout "LDS vs. the World"? Or "Register a complaint about Mormons here". Or "I'm right, you're wrong." Or "How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the LDS"
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Here's a question for the general public: Do you regularly find other religious beliefs offensive? The Catholic version of the afterlife doesn't offend me, nor does the Buddhist afterlife or anything else. If a Catholic told me that my view of heaven was wrong, I wouldn't take it personally or find it offensive. I'd just consider it to be a different opinion.
So who's the weird one? Me, or everyone else?
Don't worry, AJ. I knew you weren't attacking me. I was just saying that it seems inconsistent to say that it's rude to tell someone else they're wrong and then turn around and do essentially the same thing by saying someone else's beliefs are pointless and contrary to what you believe.
posted
Jon, the dividing line, for me, is when my name is brought into it. I’m not offended by you believing whatever you want. But if you presume to do something on my behalf or in my name that is contrary to what I believe, then I am offended.
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posted
It's tough to offend me. What comes closest, but is really more just annoying is to have somebody tell me I'm going to hell, for whatever reason. Like it's their job to decide.
Misconceptions about what Catholics believe is much less so, but is also minorly annoying. And I'm more annoyed at Catholics that perpetuate the misconceptions than non-Catholics who happen across them.
I don't even mind being told I'm wrong. It happens often enough. But I mostly just chalk it up to differences in interpretation and assert my free will to choose what I believe. No biggie.
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posted
I don't find any relgious beliefs offensive. In fact, I take offense at only two categories of things: That which is actually vile (e.g. abuse of innocents), and that which is obviously intended to offend. The first category is relatively small. The second is easy to spot, because it has no apparent purpose other than offense.
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posted
Fishtail I wasn't trying to speak for catholics above. I was just commenting that Catholicism seems to have more in-between options possible than most other brands of Christianity excluding LDS.
You are his brother, and we are all in this together. We are all traveling on a road and must each help eachother out. Some of us have better directions than others. Some of us know more of some things than others, and other people know more of something else. We all have different abilities. We even have different goals and I suspect we had different goals before we were born.
In the end, we will ALL of us be given the fate we will be the most comfortable with, other than ceasing to exist since (within our theology) that is impossible.
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posted
Yah, I didn't think it would help, I just didn't really know what Tom was asking.
By the way, I want to apologize to AJ. I try to be very careful about stating things to show that I know that they are my beliefs, that I understand that they aren't facts to everyone else. I'd like to blame early morning stupidness for the outburst, which was rather disrespectful. AJ, I have the utmost restpect for you, and I think you're a wonderful women. I'm certainly not mad at you, nor think that I'm in any way superior to you. I hope there are no hard feelings.
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