posted
Ok, we all know that Tolkien's world is supposed to be our world in the distant past. So Dark Lord Sauron, last manifistation of incarnate evil, is destroyed. And Tolkien was a Catholic. That means the story of Jesus is still coming up for Middle-Earth.
So if the Devil is already dead, how can Incarnate Evil make an appearance and tempt JC when he is out in the desert?
We also know that Melkor the Morgoth had suffused the Earth with a shadow of Evil so that the mortal world can never fully be free of it. But Satan is Evil with personality, reserved only for Melkor and Sauron.
So the question is did Tolkien make a mistake in meshing the Primary and Secondary Worlds? OR, did he have a plan in place?
Was this the time that Morgoth breaks through the Doors of Night and comes back to bring about the End of Days? Who can say if the End of Days starts with Melkor's return... the only thing we know for sure is that the End of Days begins with the seige on Valinor... and that could happen any time in the distant future, not as soon as Melkor returns...
What do you all think?
[ April 26, 2004, 02:46 PM: Message edited by: Telperion the Silver ]
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posted
From what I understand, Tolkien vehemently denied *any* symbolism in his stories whatsoever. But, that does not mean that his religious viewpoints did not influence his writing and that there is no sense in trying to find symbolism with in his works. After all, while OSC writes in many universes that vastly differ from the his religious viewpoints, you can still find the influence of those viewpoints ingrained in his works. I don't think either author did such on purpose, but the things that mean the most to us will always influence our art. What means more to a person than their religion? Not much.
Edit: Telp, either I don't my Tolkien well enough to be able to offer insight on your question. But if you flesh the question out a bit more, I might be able to offer something.
posted
Isn't that where C.S. Lewis' Narnia series would come in? He was buddies with Tolkien, after all.
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posted
I think, considering the Inklings' passion for Myth and particularly Lewis's views on it, that tolkien, in creating a Myth, was distinctly trying to create a Myth with ties into Christianity.
However... that's exactly why there isn't room for Christian tales in there. They viewed myths as distorted versions of the Christian truth (not in a bad way, but in the manner of someothing slowly coming into focus). So it stands to reason that it wouldn't be leaving open for some future Christ, but more likely that Christ would fit some figure in the stories. Gandalf would seem the fairly obivous choice there.
posted
Jim-Me, I totally agree with your "slowly coming into focus" statement. Cheers! That's part of the great charm of Tolkien and other fantasy. In fact I think that the hazy blending is the only way to successfully create a great myth. Too many contraditions otherwise...and it also helps to inspire our imaginations.
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posted
Sauron is no more Satan than Frodo is Christ. Morgoth/Melkior is the Satan figure. Sauron is one of his underlings, as Gandalph is an angelic-like creature of the creators.
Remember Tolkien came from the High Catholic school of theology, where there is a whole heirarchy of angels and demons.
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posted
But, Dan, he also comes from the Mythopathic Society, who believed that Myths were "happy dreams" that God sent the pagans so they would be prepared to recognize Christ in their own Mythology.
He would have made hazy analogs, rather than direct and obvious correlations... and he seems to have done just that.
posted
True, if anyone was going to be Satan it would be Morgoth, but at least for the Second and Third Ages Sauron was the Devil on earth.
As for incarnate... I ment that we have the idea of evil or what we call evil actions, the idea of evil. And then we have Evil with a personality, the source of Evil with a humanoid (or flaming Eye) physical shape.
Part of the Prophacy states that the Gods themselves shall grow weary, and the watch on the Walls of Night will fail, and Morgoth will return and lay seige to Valmar...
And then of course we have the return of the Heros, esp. Turin, and the death of Morgoth and the recovery of the Silmarills, and the ressurection of the Two Trees...and the Second Great Music...
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quote:Let us try and blend two "mythologies" for fun... Tolkien's world and the Christian history.
I'm game. It won't be hard, because Tolkien was specifically trying to come up with myths consistent with Christianity.
First, the fall is specifically mentioned in the Simarillion. It states that Men arrived after Morgoth stole the Simarils, and that he thought Man's arrival was so important that he left Angband to see to it personally.
When the men arrived in Beleriand, they could perceive the shadow of the fall on their souls.
The theme is brought out more strongly in the Numenor tale. Basically, it demonstrates that ultimate corruption of man absent Christ. In the description of why men can't go to the Blessed Lands you get some hint of it as well.
There's many, many more. It's clear Morgoth = Satan. Sauron was a lesser fallen angel with corporeal form. The last line of the section of the Simirillian that's actually about the Simirils says something to the effect that his shadow still moves in the world, as do his servants.
Tolkien also makes it clear that evil is ultimately self-destructive (Sauron took the same ruinous path into the void as Morgoth) and that submission to authority is a necessary state.
posted
Well, first off, it's clear that Sauron is not the last supernatural Evil in the world-it's said many times that there will be other Shadows.
Second, in 'Morgoth's Ring', it's made clear that Morgoth actually invested part of his power (originally greater than everything else put together except for Eru) into Arda. While it's not enough to turn everything to evil, the very fabric of the world has a little bit of evil in it (one neat tidbit: gold is one such material Morgoth focused on)
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posted
they destroyed the big looming evil of Sauron, yeah, but there's still the smaller evils to fight and conquor, evils that are in every person.
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posted
Yeah, there will be evil in other times. Gandalf just says they have to do what they can to defeat the evil in their own time.
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