posted
Personally I don't find it humorous. The young man was patriotic. He put millions on hold to serve his country. Whether you agree or disagree with the politics behind the recent activity I think you should admire a young man who had ideals.
posted
Beyond tasteless. :vomit graemlin: And is there any reason to believe his assertion that Tillman thought that?
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Ridiculous. At minimum, the allegation that al-Queda wasn't in Afghanistan is pure B.S.
Dagonee Edit: Although it does put an interesting spin on some people claiming they "support the troops but oppose the war." Calling soldiers saps and idiots doesn't qualify as support.
Wow, that's so wrong. Regardless of how you feel about the war(s), maligning the name of a dead soldier (with nothing shameful on his record, even) is just so wrong.
Tacky, tasteless, rude, mean, cheap. Find some other way to make a political point, eh?
Posts: 2849 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
To play devil's advocate for a second, I'm guessing the point of the cartoon is that Tillman's being celebrated for his death because he's a) a national football star and b) a really pretty picture to plaster on magazines to create a groundswell of pathos.
Tillman's gave up one hell of a contract to join the war, and deserves commendation for his sacrifice. But to get the ridiculous media coverage he has thus far? You know it wouldn't have happened if the boy wasn't so stinking handsome and the national media didn't think it could drum up a hell of a lot of money by overcelebrating his career. He's the White Woman of the Month.
Now, the cartoon's in absolutely terrible taste, and I think the cartoonist could have found a far easier way to express his point -- I doubt very many of those who joined the war did so out of hatred for Arabs -- but under his callous treatment of the dead lies a fairly valid point.
Posts: 3293 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
I saw on the news today that several college papers ran articles saying Tillman wasn't a hero, he was a moron jock who got what was coming to him.
There's a line, and that crosses it, no matter what your politics are.
Posts: 2258 | Registered: Aug 2003
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Although to be fair, I don't know if it's suiting to call the guy a "hero." I don't understand how being a soldier is the same thing as being a hero. A soldier is a soldier. A paid representitive of the government he serves.
Not all soldiers are heroes. Not all heroes are soldiers.
I'll admit I don't know the specifics of this guy's career in the military. I honestly don't pay attention to the stories of individuals in combat situations.
Posts: 903 | Registered: May 2003
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posted
I don't recall Tillman ever expressing sentiments portrayed by the first panel of that cartoon. Ted Rall has crossed the line.
Posts: 1592 | Registered: May 2000
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posted
Lalo, the point you find in that cartoon isn't there - you've added it. You're point may be valid, but it's not even suggested by the cartoon. In fact, the cartoon makes the clear implication that he's stupidity is even greater because he gave up a lot of money, as if this somehow makes his life more valuable than people who don't give up million-dollar paychecks to join up. (Edit: In other words, making the same kind of value judgment you find that the media as a whole is making.)
It's insulting on every single level to pretty much everybody in the armed forces.
posted
Couple things- in the first frame on the second row, we have a picture of a CO saying something to the effect of 'Museums burning? Who cares? Get down to Basra, and fix that pipeline!' to a soldier who from the context of the cartoon, we presume to be Tillman.
If I understand mid-east geography, Basra is in Iraq. If I remember correctly, several important Iraqi libraries and museums were burned.
If I understand the reports correctly, Tillman was based in Afghanistan, which had few museums or libraries.
posted
This is where I chime in with the point that people on the Left have it in their capacity to be just as smug, rude, and condescending as people on the Right.
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quote:To play devil's advocate for a second...
I'll hold my breath waiting for you to play Devil's Advocate for an insulting, incredibly offensive, and stupidly-stated (and ultimately wrongheaded) Right-side viewpoint. I expect I'll be discovering new shades of blue, purple, and red while I'm doing so.
quote:But to get the ridiculous media coverage he has thus far? You know it wouldn't have happened if the boy wasn't so stinking handsome and the national media didn't think it could drum up a hell of a lot of money by overcelebrating his career.
Giving up what could well be described as the ideal life to voluntarily place one's life in jeapardy for the sake of one's nation isn't a huge media story? Name me a society on the planet now or throughout history that conceivably wouldn't have 'ridiculous media coverage' of something like this, Eddie.
quote:...but under his callous treatment of the dead lies a fairly valid point.
First of all, it's not 'callous', it's deliberately insulting. The cartoon called him a stupid, racist, murderous puppet chump. That's not 'callous' Ed, and you know it.
Second, the point is not remotely valid. The only 'points' of that cartoon was that Tillman was an idiotic murdering racist sucker, that the Army wants people like that, and that Bush is a diabolical mastermind of evil to rival Lex Luthor.
The point you managed to fish out-that media coverage of Tillman is somehow unexpected or disproportionate-isn't valid, either. The man was printing his own money, but put that aside to enlist. That's a big honking story, and you know it.
'Devil's Advocate', indeed. I would've thought the Devil could get a better lawyer
quote:quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- To play devil's advocate for a second, I'm guessing the point of the cartoon is that Tillman's being celebrated for his death because he's a) a national football star and b) a really pretty picture to plaster on magazines to create a groundswell of pathos.
Tillman's gave up one hell of a contract to join the war, and deserves commendation for his sacrifice. But to get the ridiculous media coverage he has thus far? You know it wouldn't have happened if the boy wasn't so stinking handsome and the national media didn't think it could drum up a hell of a lot of money by overcelebrating his career. He's the White Woman of the Month.
Now, the cartoon's in absolutely terrible taste, and I think the cartoonist could have found a far easier way to express his point -- I doubt very many of those who joined the war did so out of hatred for Arabs -- but under his callous treatment of the dead lies a fairly valid point. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lalo, the point you find in that cartoon isn't there - you've added it. You're point may be valid, but it's not even suggested by the cartoon. In fact, the cartoon makes the clear implication that he's stupidity is even greater because he gave up a lot of money, as if this somehow makes his life more valuable than people who don't give up million-dollar paychecks to join up. (Edit: In other words, making the same kind of value judgment you find that the media as a whole is making.)
It's insulting on every single level to pretty much everybody in the armed forces.
I'm not so sure the point isn't made in the final panel of the cartoon, Dag. To quote: "So when Tillman got killed by the Afghan resistance, one word naturally came to mind: [Daily News editors:] 'Uh -- idiot?' 'Sap?' 'HERO!'"
Now, yes, the cartoon does imply Tillman's an idiot for sacrificing his contract to support, as Rall portrays it, a corrupt war instigated for oil, one which Tillman joined for the sake of killing Arabs and stealing oil. Yes, it's insulting. The armed forces are not the ones to blame for the war, and many of the volunteers are no doubt doing so out of virtue, not bigotry or patriotism. I make no excuses for the man -- however, there do seem to be valid political points beneath the vulgar inappropriateness of the damn thing.
Posts: 3293 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
Lalo, the cartoon does make the points about the corruption of the war you described in your last post, but how does it address this at all:
"But to get the ridiculous media coverage he has thus far? You know it wouldn't have happened if the boy wasn't so stinking handsome and the national media didn't think it could drum up a hell of a lot of money by overcelebrating his career."
I don't necessarily think your sentiment here is wrong, although I think it ignores some realities of the news business. Deaths get more coverage among people that know the person - local boys killed are usually big news in local newspapers, especially the smaller ones. In this case, the person is nationally known, so he gets more coverage. However, the money and looks certainly gave the story more "legs" than it would have had otherwise.
That being said, I don't see how the cartoon deals with the media coverage. Except for the amount of money he gave up, which is not crucial to the punchline, the cartoon would make exactly the same points by using any volunteer who ended up dying over there. Hero would work just as well for any of them.
Beyond that, there comes a time when speech becomes so insulting that trying to extract the valid political points from it is simply not worthwhile. This is especially true when outright inaccuracies or lies are used to enhance the narrative effect.
Dagonee Edit: If you get a chance, could you please respond to my repost in the Methodist thread?
quote:I make no excuses for the man -- however, there do seem to be valid political points beneath the vulgar inappropriateness of the damn thing.
Sure you are-calling it 'callous' is a prime example. Given what was actually said and implied, 'callous' is clearly excuse-making. The word means indifference, not necessarily a malicious indifference. What was here was clearly mean-spirited and insulting to the dead and to many living people.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
Just for the record, as someone who disagrees with the administration on many counts;
And who disagrees more and more every day as some of the details that were either unknown (extensive use of private contractors for prison and intelligence work) or hadn't been highlighted enough ("the Geneva rules don't necessarily apply here");
I find the cartoon incredibly offensive. It's good to be reminded that those who like to think of themselves as "progressive" can be every bit as nasty as some of those on the "right" (you ought to read some of Limbaugh's stuff over the past week.)
Glad MSNBC took it down - the question is why it was put up to begin with.
Posts: 4344 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Let's talk about Tillman a bit and specifically what makes him a hero.
Tillman played college football at Arizona State University and distinguished himself as both a scholar and an athlete. A very serious fellow, he never got in trouble and had a reputation for being very introspective and extremely well-grounded.
He was selected in the middle rounds of the NFL draft by the Arizona Cardinals and jumped at the chance to play for his home team. He signed a $3 million a year contract and as he went to rookie training camp, we get to see a good example of what kind of guy he was. While the other rookies were driving to camp in their brand new sports cars and Bentleys, Tillman rode his bicycle... he wasn't going to take a chance at spending everything he was earning on the off chance he didn't make the team.
And he did make the team. He played well and after three years he was up for free agency, where other teams can offer a player more money to come play for them. He rejected an offer for almost twice the money he was making to stay with his team and his home town. That, in this day and age, makes him a rarity. It wasn't about the money.
Then 9/11 happened and both Tillman and his younger brother (who was working his way up through the minor league pro baseball teams) both decided that they would both put their careers on hold and join up with the Army to help defend their country. Tillman actually asked his coach and the team owners for permission to walk away from his career and contract and received it. He also said when this was all over, he'd like the chance to compete for a spot on the team again. Not just waltz back in, but actually compete for a roster spot again. And when he and his brother left, there was no more fanfare than a simple blurb or two in the sports journals. Why? Because they both refused to do interviews, they weren't seeking glory.
Both went through basic training as enlisted men and did not try of OCS (Officer Candidate School), something their college degrees would have given them a shot at. Both went on to Ranger School, possibly the roughest training school in the world and one destined for combat operatives. Both could have taken quicky safe careers in logistics or public relations or something, but they chose to go to where the problem was. They didn't join the Air National Guard so they could call themselves veterans after the war.
And so Tillman went off to Afghanistan. So how did he die? On patrol near the Pakistan/Afghanistan border, his unit was working through a narrow pass. He was in leading the point element, with a second squad following in trail. The second unit came under fire from mortars and small arms. As they were pinned down and unable to maneuver out of the area. Specialist Tillman gathered up his element and worked back and up the slopes. They were able to return fire on the attackers and gave the second squad a chance to get out of the area. As Tillman's group disengaged, he was shot and mortally wounded. The men in his squad carried him back and he later died from his wounds.
This was a man of sacrifice, who believed in things bigger than himself. He never stood on a soapbox and supported either political party. He never took his term of service as a stepping stone to bigger and better things. He gave away a fortune and fame because he believed in placing himself in harm's way for his country and his fellow countrymen.
He went and did his duty and never ever once thought that he had wasted any of what he had been given. He went to do what he thought was right for no reason other than that it was the right thing to do. This wasn't a career choice, or a way to live out a gun nut's fantasy, it wasn't to write a book or sell the movie rights.
And someone had the gall to spit on his grave?
I'm disgusted and saddened that we have become so jaded.
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