quote: Though I don't feel strongly connected to a religion, I do feel strongly connected to the planet I live on and the people I share it with. My sense of right and wrong comes from my heart, and sometimes my gut. I respect and treat others kindly, including animals. I respect laws because I know that (most of the time) they work to keep society safe due to the fact that some people have no sense of right and wrong. That for me is the big quandry - why are some people bad? I've never understood that.
space opera
You know I don't think I have ever really tried to answer that question... I mean it is hard to answer because there are many different reasons one person can come up with, not to mention that "bad" is defined differently from so many perspectives, but I am thinking you mean in the most basic of ways. IE why do people kill, rape, and steal. Or to go back to the thread I pulled this from...
What makes individuals do things that go against their society's moral code?
If you have an opinion on this, or if you have an experience that deals with this, please reply Posts: 232 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
I think it is a good question. Every time you hear about something bad happening, people always ask why the offender did what they did...
Unfortunatly there is no black or white answer, there is however tons of grey area. Emotional response, a disconnection from society due to personal grievances (sp?), an inability to tell between right or wrong, or just straight up insanity.
Each case tends to have its own answer, but is your question more of why are people bad sometimes, or more about why are there bad people at all?
Posts: 232 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
I suppose it's "why are there bad people at all?" even though it sounds childish. I know that we all do bad stuff, but I can't understand why people kill and rape one another. It's like in order to do something like that you have to believe that human life has no value.
posted
Everybody has some moral code -- there are some things that we all believe we should do, and others that we believe we should not do.
So why do we do things that we know we shouldn't? I think that part of it is self-deception. We convince ourselves in the moment of "sin" that what we are doing isn't really wrong. Why do we do this? Because we want what we get out of the sin more than we want to do what's right.
I mostly believe this.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
You have to believe that other human lives have no value.
You ask, "Why do people do something that hurts their society." The answer, they don't consider the things they are hurting to be part of their society.
A soldier in Iraq shoots a terrorist in Iraq. He does not do so because he is bad, but because by being a terrorist, that person has removed themselves from human society as far as that soldier is concerned.
The Terrorist had planted a bomb to kill the soldier. Why? Because by being a western soldier, that terrorist believes that the soldier has removed himself from human society.
A man rapes a woman. Why does he harm another human this way? Because he does not think of the woman as a human, or any woman as a member of their society.
Sometimes the society dwindles down to just the individual. He hurts others not to hurt society but because by doing so he proves that those others are not a part of his society.
Of course, more universally, there are as many reasons for doing evil as there are acts of evil.
Posts: 11895 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
Obviously I have asked myself this any times as it pertains to the man who killed my father.
I think a killer has to have such a low opinion of life, and yet also be so self-centered at the same time. Totally focused on themselves and whatever their problem/anger is.
I also think in this particular case (and possibly in some other well=known cases) it was a suicide wish, in a round-about way. He cared so little for his own life, so he also cared so little for anyone else's. That is why he killed daddy, and that is why, when local police surrounded him after running him down, he raised a gun to point and shoot at them, knowing full well what would happen if you do that surrounded by 10 policemen on all sides of you.
Why he lived through that particular encounter, I don't know either.
Somehow or another, killers and such just think differently than others of us. Is it a chemical inbalance, or is it a monster they have created within their brain by focusing so much on themselves?
posted
People seldom see their actions as evil. A man raping a woman could convince himself that she wants it, or perhaps he is drunk at the time. Terrorist bombing peopel can say it's for God, It's for their country. People fighting in a war can say the same. It's denial. It's ignoring the lurching feeling in the stomach that tells you you're doing something wrong.
Or, sometimes it could be a simple downward spiral. Small actions, petty theft... next thing you know there's a gun in your shaking hand.
But what really scares me and literally keeps meup at night is... If put in the situation of say, a slave owner would I go along with it? Would i be cruel and horrible if in a mob?
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Space Opera, There is a book called The Little Soul and the Sun by Neale Donald Walsh. It's a children's book that I have found to be a wonderful tool in answering children's (and my own) questions about why people are "good" or "bad".
The basis of the book is that a little soul is talking to God and is telling God that he would like to know what is is to be Forgiveness, to know how to be forgiving, and what it feels like and such. Another soul comes out and says that he will do something to the Little Soul so that the little soul has the chance to forgive, thus knowing what it is to be Forgiving. The Little Soul asks the other why he would do that for him and is told that each soul's purpose is to experience and just as the Little Soul wanted to experience himself as being Forgiveness, the other soul wanted to be Forgiven, thus helping each other to fill their Soul's Purpose.
I was about to delete this post because i'm not too sure how easily what I wrote will be understood, but I hope you got something out of it. The book is beautiful, and well written, (unlike my post). It's worth checking out.
Posts: 25 | Registered: May 2004
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posted
When do "bad" things happen? What are "bad" things? When do they start? It is easy to call murder, theft, rape and so on as bad things. But what about the small things that begin to dehumanize people. When walking in the city, an apparently homeless man walks up and asks for a buck. How many times do I hear "don't look them in the eye and they won't bother you" and people walk on. How many people make passing statements about ANY other person's differences and how they make them different enough to at the very least judge them. Maybe their religion is different. Their skin color. Their job. The amount of money they make. Their accent. Do we personally thank the people that cleaned our room at the Holiday Inn? Or do we shuffly by them in the hall without a passing glance?
When does an act become truly "bad?" Stiffing a waiter's tip? Not letting a teller know they gave you a $20 instead of a $10 as change? Ignoring a scream heard near by because it isn't "my business?"
I hate to quote the old axiom, but they say all evil needs is for good people to do nothing. That still true today?
posted
Maybe some people do bad stuff because they get enjoyment out of it. I know that if I robbed a bank and got away with it, I would feel pretty pumped. I know I would have more fun going cow tipping then say, helping someone who has fallen back up.
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That's a pretting intriguing question with a lot of resonance, but can you expand on what you meant by 'bad' in the quote attributed to you? A singular definition is difficult, but what did you have on your mind as "bad"?
To me, bad equals: murder, rape, child abuse, animal cruelty. I just don't understand why people do those things. I remember a news story a long time ago about a cat that had been set on fire intentionally. I don't understand the longing to bring pain to others.
posted
Hmm...that makes the question more difficult, doesn't it? I think there are some people who do bad things, but I also think there are some people who are truly bad/evil. But now that I've said that, I'm hesitant to name someone as truly bad. I mean, I'd like to think that even Hitler did something positive in all his life. I'm still thinking.
when I first read that first quote, the question that popped into my mind, is that it's terribly difficult to define "bad" (being academically abstract here) in terms of human behavior with out a concrete reference to society.
but then, I think there is a fairly easy and general definition rooted in society. (working on a way to express it - the golden rule, basicallly)
didn't see your post before. The more I see of you, the more I like you; you're just so darn smart. I love what you brought up about good people doing nothing. I've just learned to listen to that inner voice that tells me to appreciate and respect everyone. I worry about people who don't have that voice, or at least don't listen to it.
But then again, how do we get that inner voice? I didn't get my sense of right and wrong from my parents; it's just always been there. I got it from somewhere, right? And does this work conversely for people without that inner voice?
But anyway, you brought up some great points about the relativity of "badness." I'm gonna think about it more tomorrow when I'm less tired!
posted
I think people make decisions based strictly on their understanding of their environment. i.e., their environment and their capability of understanding it. A lack of understanding leads to a lack of responsibility in our actions. For example, people say Jesus was the perfect human. This would be because he had a perfect understanding of all humans, and so his every decision was able to be a positive one. A lunatic, however, does not even understand that a wall is a solid obstacle and acts accordingly . . . I personally take a person's capability for understanding as a measure of their humanity. But that's just the fascist in me, I suppose.
Posts: 16 | Registered: May 2004
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quote: To me, bad equals: murder, rape, child abuse, animal cruelty. I just don't understand why people do those things. I remember a news story a long time ago about a cat that had been set on fire intentionally. I don't understand the longing to bring pain to others.
Space Opera, have you read "Ender's Game"? Do you remember the character of Peter and his cruelty, especially as a child? I look at my son Sanford (almost 5) sometimes and I worry. He has definite potential to become a bully. He enjoys power and the abuse of it. We try our best to teach him right and wrong, but there is no denying that if he has someone helpless in his grasp, he gets a pleasure surge from it. We have to show him with time that he has these desires and that they can lead to very distructive and hurtful ends. He also has good desires and we try our best to bring them out in him.
Our daughter Athena, on the other hand, just wants to be everyone's Mommy. If her older brother tortures her and then cries when he is punished, her heart just aches for him. She wants to make it all better even going so far as to say, "I forgive you" when she has done nothing wrong! So if we fear for Sanford becoming a bully, we fear for Athena becoming a victim.
I guess we've got our little Peter and Valentine. That makes Ivy Ender?
Anyway, children come with their own tendancies. Some of those tendancies are destructive to themselves, some are destructive to others. Some get messed up after the horrible trauma they experience at the hands of those who should have nurtured them lovingly.
I do not wonder much at the question of "why are people bad?" Why? Because they want to be.
Edit: Don't you ever want to "be bad"? I know I do sometimes.
good points. societal "casting" (either macro or microcosm) can't be excluded. If the director (or democratic creative-committee equivalent) slaps a mustache on one's face, does a person feel inclined to wax and twirl said mustache, devilishly?
quote: If the director (or democratic creative-committee equivalent) slaps a mustache on one's face, does a person feel inclined to wax and twirl said mustache, devilishly?
Oooo, love the imagery there!
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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Abusive Parenting: A particular woman (Mrs.)that I know has three children(Brother, Sister, Girl). The middle child (Girl)was born just after her husband (Mr.) recieved a job offer in a foreign country. Mrs. says she felt obliged to give up her schooling and follow Mr. for the sake of her children, especially Girl. Mrs. has been unsatisfied with her personal situation ever since, because she did not attend school and for various linked reasons does not have the job or connection to her own family that she wanted. However, refusing to understand that her own decisions led her down the path she took, she blamed her obligations for her unhappiness. She particularly blamed Girl, who suffered through many years of neglect as well as physical and emotional abuse. If Mrs. understood the beauty of her children and what her family could be, this would not happen.
Another woman I know has 6 children, moved over 20 times with her husband and family because he was constantly switching jobs, was forced to work menial jobs for years and years to help provide for her family, and is now divorced. However, she understood what it meant to have a family, and to love her children, and she did love them. To this day she does everything she can to maintain good relationships with her children, and is reaping the rewards that she was able to recognize.
Basically, I feel that the difference between these two women is not the Choices that they made so much as their ability to understand the truth of their situation. I hope that helps. And I hope I didn't emotionally gut you again, but this topic and these examples in particular really mean a lot to me.
Posts: 16 | Registered: May 2004
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posted
My Papa taught me that we all are responsible for our Choices, as bitter a truth as that may be. It is true that the circumstances that one has suffered or one's "lack of understanding" must be taken into account. But does Mrs. understand that she is hurting Girl? I think so. Does she care enough to stop? No, she is thinking of her own suffering rather than Girl's. Misery loves company. When we feel miserable, it is human nature to "spread the love" so-to-speak. Are we aware of the pain we are causing others? We try not to be because we are too focused on our own pain. Are we still responsible? Yes.
Perhaps this has nothing to do with the point you were making, but nevertheless my point I feel is important and worth making. Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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Well, no. I appreciate your examples. I guess the question I was trying to get at is that... what?... they occur on quite a lot of levels and not just those of emotionally dramatic and exhibitionist/validated-righteousness extremes (see landmark post thread). soap opera.
The question of how to make good choices would be a good one for you, I reckon. post, please?
posted
Back to Bev's post about her kids and Peter/Ender/Valentine
I also have three kids. One is very much "bully" material, no matter what has been said/taught, etc. He has seemed to get somewhat a thrill out of that power since very very young.
My other boy is so opposite -- he is so sensitive that if he sees someone else hurting it makes him cry. He would rather harm himself that ever have to harm anyone else.
So what makes the difference? For those of you saying parental -- these children were raised in the same household in the same way by the same people. Why are some people -- by birth -- more "enjoying" of inflicting pain on others, while others aren't?
(and yes, obviously "bully" son picks on "sensitive" son mercilessly. Bully son sees the other as being "weak" and useless)
posted
So, could these tendencies be genetic, then, given the differences within siblings raised by the same parents? As for being bad, sure I've done "bad" things, but I've never had the desire to kill someone or torture an animal. I'm assuming that none of you have either!
I think Bev's on to something with the whole choices issue. But what stops people from making bad choices? I don't think childhood trauma could explain it. I grew up in an incredibly abusive home but still managed to get a pretty good grip on right and wrong. I don't know; I'm not trying to act like I know the answer, 'cause I don't. I just think it's an interesting discussion.
quote: As for being bad, sure I've done "bad" things, but I've never had the desire to kill someone or torture an animal. I'm assuming that none of you have either!
I'm sorry, but I have had those desires.
Frankly, it surprises me that anybody would assume that nobody in the room has had those desires. Those desires are not rare, and they do not make you a monster.
posted
Thanks for clarifying, mph. I was trying to keep an open mind, but what kept running through my head was, "This guy has the desire to torture animals???"
posted
Speaking of evil and Peter, this is my favorite part about OSC's Shadow series. I'm frankly not nearly as interested in Bean nor Petra as I am in Peter and his parents.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote: So, could these tendencies be genetic, then, given the differences within siblings raised by the same parents?
Well, some of these questions reach into the metaphysical realm. From the LDS religious perspective, each individual is made up of genetics, envorionment, but also a personality with tendancies, abilities, affinities, that already existed before they were born. So when an LDS looks at these issues, that is going to be part of the perspective.
quote: But what stops people from making bad choices?
Another question that gets into religion (for me). What is a conscience? Are we born with it, or is it learned? We (LDS perspective again) believe that every person is born with something called the "Light of Christ" that allows them to be able to discern between good and evil. Whether people choose to do good or evil is still their choice. But the ability to know the difference is innate.
I do think that to some extent, a "conscience" is learned though. While I believe that we all have the innate ability to discern good and evil, I also think that those feelings are easy to ignore over time and the more you ignore them the easier it gets. Being "raised" to have a conscience helps us to be more aware of that inner feeling of "right" and "wrong", it can also alter and manipulate those perceptions.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
The ultimate root of evil, which leads to all bad behavior, is the choice to indulge and exalt self at the expense of everyone and everything else.
The only remedy is to place God at the center, so you can follow His example of Self-sacrificial love, so that you can participate in the mutual ministry of all the children of God, and care responsibly for all aspects of God's creation.
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posted
Ron, I must respectfully disagree that placing God at the center is the "only" way. I'm an agnostic, so God isn't at my center, and I still manage to feel a connection and responsibility to all others on the planet. I understand that religion plays a major role in choices for a lot of people, but to say that following God is the only way to remedy exalting the self at the expense of others is leaving a lot of people out of the game. I manage to avoid that most of the time (since none of us are perfect) without relying on God's example.
posted
While you may not agree with Ron's conclusion, I think his premise is correct:
quote:The ultimate root of evil, which leads to all bad behavior, is the choice to indulge and exalt self at the expense of everyone and everything else.
I am convinced that the root of "bad" is selfishness - putting one's own desires above all else. So, in my opinion, anything that you do that detracts from rampant self-gratification and selfishness - be it God, Mother Earth, humanity, family, etc. - helps to avoid "bad".
posted
Bev, thanks for that thoughtful response. I totally agree that being "raised" to have a conscience can smooth or roughen the road for a person. I also like the Light of Christ idea. Is it fair to say that the LDS church assumes then that people are innately good?
posted
Ludosti, I would agree with Ron's premise as well. It just tends to get my hackles up when someone gives an "only" type solution, especially when I know from personal experience that the conclusion is incorrect - maybe not for Ron, but definately for a lot of others.
posted
Yes, I would say that the LDS Church does believe that people are innately good. However, we can effectively destroy our conscience (or lessen the influence of the Light of Christ) through our own bad choices. There is also the idea that we need to learn to "put off the natural man" - meaning that we need to learn how to master our own bodies and wills.
posted
Space Opera, you evidently do believe in an abstract ideal of "Good." That is what you would place at the center. The difference is that I personify that Good as God. I would submit that true Goodness has to be a Person. Something that is just abstract and impersonal could not be truly Good. Only a Person could have an independant existence apart from any human conception of Him.
I believe that each individual is required to make a choice between Good and Evil, however those things are manifested in his life, however well he may understand them. God will save and welcome into eternal fellowship with Himself all who thus choose Good, taking into account their culture, upbringing and understanding. But it is easier to choose Good if you understand more about it when you see that Good is a Person.
[ June 03, 2004, 12:41 PM: Message edited by: Ron Lambert ]
Posts: 3742 | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
I disagree that LDS doctrine says that people are innately good. The way I read it is that people are innately innocent, but have an innate sense of what is right and wrong. We then choose between good and evil.
That is an interesting point that you bring about about Good being easier to understand if you believe that it's manifested in the form of a person instead of an abstract idea. I think even I do that to some extent, just not with God. I tend to think of Ghandi, Martin Luther King, Jr. and others of their ilk as "good" and seek to learn from their lives. You've definately got me thinking now.
posted
LDS perspective as I understand it: Children are born innocent and blameless with a divine "spark" in them. But with the body comes the animal aspect, the "natural man". We have a scripture that says that the"natural man is an enemy to God...." as MPH (edit: oops! T'was ludosti) stated. So within man we have the yearning for the divine and pure but also the natural instincts. I could extrapolate this to say that a "survival of the fittest" attitude comes from that natural side. It is the law of this world, the law of survival. But it is innately selfish and leads to suffering. We must "put off" the natural man, overcome it, and adopt the ideals of God.
From the LDS perspective, a person can be agnostic and even atheist and still be influenced by the truths that come from God and choose to follow them. But we do believe that a full understanding of God and His plan and the effects Christ's atonement are necessary to successfully "put off" the natural man and become what God intends us to be.
So do we believe that man is innately good or evil? I guess the real answer is we believe both--that man is dual in nature. We must choose which influence to follow.
FYI: Also in the LDS perspective, we do not believe that the body is evil. In fact, we believe that the body is an essential and eternal part of the soul, that the spirit is incomplete without it. But we believe that the animal nature of this mortal body must be in subjection to the will of the spirit, in obedience to it, if you will.
posted
Space, I love these kinds of discussions. Would you mind answering some questions for me? What kind of agnostic are you? And if you're not sure about God, why do you bother trying to be good?
See, I don't get morality if one doesn't believe in God. I don't understand why anyone would bother. Good is hard work. If there's no higher power demanding I behave like Him for a greater payout, you can be sure I'd only be looking out for number one.
I don't believe people are good. I believe people are selfish and have to be taught to think of others. Even the passive child example, like Valentine, is inherately selfish. It's a learned behavior to get the desired response from mom and dad. Their parents scolded Peter for being a bully, so Valentine was the anti-bully. It's just another way to play the same game.
Posts: 2283 | Registered: Dec 2003
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posted
I never mind questions, AvidReader. I don't know exactly what kind of agnostic I am. I supppose the easiest way to describe it is that I'm just not sure that there is a God. I'm very open to the idea that there is one, but I have a hard time believing that humans were created by some master in the sky. However, sometimes I swing towards believing more; at those times I would describe myself at best as a Deist.
As for why I bother to be good, as I said above, even though I'm not sure about God, I believe that I do share a connection with all other people and animals. I even believe that I share a connection with nature. Because of this connection, I can't act in ways that harm others or harm the connection between us. I believe that all other life deserves dignity and respect.
In some ways, if I look at it logically, I suppose I could ask myself why bother if there's no reward. But the truth is, I just can't help it. I *feel* that connection, no matter how much I try to deny it. I just want to get through life as gently as possible, and leave an inheritance of gentleness and reverance for life to my children. I suppose I don't have to worry about after-life punishment, since I'm an agnostic, but the guilt I would feel if I did something to intentionally harm that connection and responsibility I feel would eat me alive. I can't ask a deity for forgiveness and feel the relief afterwards.
All life is beautiful. If I harmed the connection I would be a destroyer of beauty. As I said, it's a "gut" thing for me. Case in point: today I was blowing up part of my kiddos' swimming pool when an ant over my hand. I flicked my hand to get it off and the ant landed in the water. I felt so bad that I had to stop working and rescue the ant. I realize this might make me sound weird, but hey, even an ant doesn't deserve to suffer.
quote: I realize this might make me sound weird, but hey, even an ant doesn't deserve to suffer.
how can an ant "deserve" something? positive or negative?
I understand that might sound facetious, but that's a deserved question. Yeah, you might be weird for being agnostic, for rescuing critter minutiae from your unintentioned but recognizably inescapable ant slaughter. But, I think you're even weirder for presuming a spectrum of judgement surrounding the ant's existance.
posted
AvidReader, see this thread for why people who don't believe in God still act morally. (And ignore most of the long posts if you wish, as they're mostly irrelevant to the discussion.)
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