posted
The HitchHiker's Guide to the Galaxy has an answer to your question. It actually refers to the Babel fish:
quote:"...Now it is such a bizarrely imporbable coincidence that anything so mindbogglingly useful could have evolved purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as a final and clinching proof of the [i]non[/u]existance of God. "The argument goes something like this: 'I refuse to prove that I excist,' says God, 'for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing.' 'But' says Man, 'the Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It oculd not have evolved by change. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own argument, you don't. QED.' 'Oh dear, ' says God, 'I hadn't thought of that,' and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic...."
And so I answer your question with two more questions that are a bit more involved. Why do you think? And possibly more importantly "Why?" Satyagraha
Posts: 1986 | Registered: Apr 2001
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posted
Actually, RRR, he lives in Delaware. He also has an AOL account. He called in one time to tell me I was a sinner.
Posts: 9754 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
While my original comment was humorous in nature, I'm still being completely serious. Many philosophers have attempted to prove or disprove the existance of God from Augustine to Anselm to Descartes to Kant. I don't think that there's any hard answer that can say there is or isn't a higher being. Thus, it depends upon your personal convictions and thoughts upon the subject. Satyagraha
Posts: 1986 | Registered: Apr 2001
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posted
I can't prove or disprove God. But, IMHO, there's a lot more evidence for Him than there is against Him. Later, when I'm not at work and have more time to write something longer, I'll share with you some of my experience. It won't prove He exists, but it'll give you more evidence.
I could also refer you to any number of books that might help. The Case for Christ by Lee Strobel is one that's pretty easy to read. Strobel was at one time a journalist for the Chicago Tribune. He has a Harvard law degree, and is a former atheist.
He set out to disprove God and the Bible once and for all. He used his background in law and his journalistic skills to research the various types of evidence that might be used in court case. His findings were enough to convince him that God is real, and his current profession is as a teaching pastor.
Posts: 159 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
Ok. A bit later than I intended, but, as promised...
As I mentioned elsewhere, I was raised in a Christian home, so I've been attending church since within a few days of coming home from the hospital when I was born. I made my decision to follow Christ when I was in junior high school, and was baptised.
Several years later, my church was holding a missions convention in April. On Sunday morning, during the service, the pastor's wife was singing a special. I only heard about the first verse of the song. Somewhere around the end of that first verse, several events from my life began flashing before my eyes.
Flash. I'm in college, and as part of my Linguistics degree, I have to choose between 3 elective series. One is a series of TEFL (Teaching English as a Foreign Language), one is related to Anthropological Linguistics, the other is equally distasteful. I hate public speaking, and I hated the one Anthropology course I had taken. I end up choosing the TEFL track, as teh lesser of 3 evils, swearing I'll never use it.
Flash. I've graduated college and am working for an insurance company as a computer programmer (CS was one of my other 2 majors). The job's ok, but my plan is to eventually return to school for a Masters in Computational Linguistics. I don't plan to be there forever.
Flash. I clearly hear a voice telling me that this would be the perfect time for a short-term missions project.
Flash. I'm back to reality, and the song is finished. I'm sitting in my seat with tears rolling down my face. I don't know quite what I've been challenged with, but there's no doubt in my mind that it's God Who is making the challenge.
Later in the service, there is a missionary couple who share about what they're doing in Haiti. Much of it is the same stuff that missionaries always talk about when they speak, but when the wife speaks, she shares a bit about her commitment to serving with her husband. She talks about when she and her husband got married, she had the scripture reference Ruth 1:12 inscribed on the inside of their wedding rings.
quote:But Ruth replied [to Naomi], "Don't urge me to leave you or to turn back from you. Where you go I will go, and where you stay, I will stay. Your people will be my people and your God my God. (NIV)
She stated that this was the promise she was making to her husband. Little did she know at the time, that she would be spending years of her life in Haiti as a result of that promise. This will become more relevant in a little bit.
Towards the end of the service, an opportunity is given for people to share testimonies. I publicly confess that I believe that God has called me to the mission field. I don't know where, or even the exact timing of when.
One of the other guests we had that morning was a representative from our denominational missions department. He approaches me after the service and says that they want to help me to fulfill my calling however they can. He asks me to make sure I get them my name and address so they can keep in contact with me. I get distracted talking to other people, and fail to follow through on that before he leaves.
Later that same week, I was in a Bible study with some friends who do not attend the same church that I do. They knew nothing of what had transpired on Sunday, as I had not shared anything about that with them yet. During the prayer time at the end of the service, one of the ladies opens her Bible, and reads Ruth 1:16. Whoa. If I had any doubts about whether God had been speaking to me, they were pretty much banished at that point. The book of Ruth isn't one that I'm used to hearing regularly. For the same passage to come up twice within a week, is a bit too much of a coincidence.
Two weeks later, I get a letter from a Wesleyan World Missions recruiter (I later learned that the church secretary had provided my address to the representative before he had left the conference) informing me that they had heard that I was interested in missions. They had a need for an English teacher in Czechoslovakia for the following school year.
Uh oh. This is EXACTLY what I had sworn I wasn't going to do. I'm immediately on the defensive. Every fiber of my being wants to say the timing is not right. I'm supposed to go to grad school first, THEN go out on the mission field, right? God couldn't possibly have meant NOW.
I drafted a 2-page letter back to the recruiter explaining my thoughts, and informing her that while I am not opposed to going to Czechoslovakia, I'm not sure the timing is right. I meet my pastor for breakfast, and have him read over the letter before I send it. He has a couple of changes he suggests, but overall thinks it's good. At the end of the meeting, however, he scares the crap out of me by telling me, "Bob, you're going to be on the mission field within a year."
Two months pass and I haven't heard any response to my letter. Unsure how to take that, I place a call to Wesleyan World Missions, and spoke with the recruiter. She has been involved in preparations for a denominational conference, and claims to have a desk piled high with things she hasn't attended to recently. She remembers having received the letter, but requests that I give her the weekend to relocate it. I'm to call her back on Monday when she'll be able to more coherently talk about what I've written, and where we should go from here.
By the time I call her back on Monday, she's found the letter. She asks if I'm still unsure of the timing. I assure her that I'm not really sure of anything at the moment. After we've talked for a while, she suggests that I let her send me the mission department’s application. It's good for 2 years, so if things don't work out for the Czech assignment, then it's still not necessarily time wasted. I'm to continue to pray about the situation, and she suggests that maybe even through filling out the form, things might become clearer.
I follow her suggestions, but I'm still not sure at the time I send in the application what I'm ultimately going to do. I still have a hang up with the thought of standing in front of 20 or 30 people at a time and having to teach them how to speak English. I absolutely do NOT want to do this.
While a lot of this has been going on, I have joined a Bible study with some friends at Ohio State University, called Experiencing God. This study is designed so that there are 5 lessons for the attendees to complete during the week, and a weekly meeting to discuss what we've read/learned through the previous week's lessons. I'm astounded how each lesson seems to speak directly to the doubts and issues that I'm facing in this decision of whether or not to go on this mission trip.
By the time that the recruiter has received and processed my application, and we talk again, a friend of mine has an opportunity to go to Russia and take them some dialysis machines that are being retired from the hospital where she works. She approaches me and says that the hospital also has some computers that they would also be willing to donate. Thanks for the complication.
It's already late July at this point, and my friend is heading to Russia in September. That's an awfully short time to raise the funds that I would need. As I'm talking with the recruiter after this offer, I mention it, and share my concern about the timing. She laughs, and asks me when I think the Czechoslovakia trip would be -- also September, of course.
At this point I figure I'd better be applying for a passport. If either of these things ends up being what I'm going to do, I'm going to need it. I go the post office and fill out the paperwork for the passport and turn it in. They ask if I need a rush put on it. It can take 4 to 6 weeks for the passport to be processed without the rush. Since I'm not entirely sure I'm going anywhere, I tell them not to bother
Sometime within the next week, without consciously making the decision, I decide that I'm going to take the missions trip to the Czech Republic. Somehow, once I finally gave in and said, "yes" to God that I was willing to go, my desires of what I wanted to do changed completely 180 degrees from what they had been just a week before. All of a sudden, I wanted to go teach more than anything else in the world. I contacted the recruiter and told her my decision.
She got me in contact with the director of the school where I'd be teaching, so I could interview with him. The interview went well, and they said they'd be glad for me to come. My passport has just become a potential issue, because I don't have 6 weeks before I need to be heading out.
I needn't have worried. My passport arrived in my mailbox 1 week to the day from the day I requested it. To me that was just confirmation from God that I had made the right decision.
I inform my employer of what I am planning to do, and that I would like to take a 10-month leave of absence. My boss assures me that he doesn't think that would be a problem, and he starts the ball rolling with Personnel. As it turns out, Personnel was not willing to grant the leave for 10 months; their maximum is 6. By the time this decision is handed down, I don't have 2 weeks notice left to give. I am so sure that God will take care of me in this, that I don't hesitate in telling my boss that I quit, and he needs to consider the date that I originally told him what I was planning as the start of the 2-week notice, as I'll be quitting at the end of the week.
I had 2 weeks after I quit my job before I had to fly out to the Czech Republic, and God used that time to give me one last confirmation before I left. I attended a student conference with my friends from OSU, and one of the teaching tracks at this conference just "happened" to be related to TEFL. I asked some others who had attended this conference in previous years, and they said those classes had never been offered at this conference before. Of course, I chose to attend these classes as a refresher.
To give you an idea of how closely that Experiencing God Bible study tracked with the decisions I had been making, I left before the study was finished, and the main topic of the lesson that we would have discussed the week I left was, "In order to join God in what He is doing, you will have to make major adjustments in your life." If flying across the ocean (my first time ever to be on a plane, by the way) is not a major adjustment, I don't know what is.
When I look back on this whole experience, I can't help but be amazed at the hand of God in orchestrating the whole thing. I didn't really want to be obedient to God through this whole thing, but I chose to do so anyway.
I don't really know what kind of an impact I made on each of the students I taught while I was there, or what kind of an impact I made on the people who attended the weekly bi-lingual church services the other teachers and I were involved in preparing and presenting. I only know, for sure, of one person who made a profession of faith, and that came 2 years after I returned home. That's a story for another time, though. This post is already long enough to be a landmark, and it's only my 32nd!
I also learned that teaching English really isn't my forte, but I had a blast during the year I was there doing it. I would not trade that experience for anything. My faith in God is a lot stronger today because of my obedience to Him at that time, and there's no way that anyone can convince me that God isn't real, or that I don't matter to Him.
Sorry for such a long post, but it was very difficult to express everything I wanted to share and have it be any shorter. Whew!
posted
I can't prove or disprove God. But, IMHO, there's a lot more evidence for Him than there is against Him.
Interesting. I'd be glad to see your arguement. Personally, I think there isn't any evidence at all that "He" exists.
Posts: 3060 | Registered: Nov 2003
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quote:Phanto says: BlueJacsFan, could I have your arguement that you promised? I'm interested in hearing it.
(Yes, I noticed the tongue-in-cheekiness of our post.) Actually, I only promised to share with you some of my experience. But, since you asked, tell me your explanation of creation. Where did this world and all that is in it -- especially all the various life-forms -- come from?
The universe is way to ordered for me to believe that things just "happened" to fall together in just the right order to create life. The probability of the necessary amino acids combining in such a was as to form a protein molecule are pretty staggering. Check out this site for more of the specific problems with the Darwinistic theory of evolution.
Posts: 159 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote: (Yes, I noticed the tongue-in-cheekiness of our post.) Actually, I only promised to share with you some of my experience. But, since you asked, tell me your explanation of creation. Where did this world and all that is in it -- especially all the various life-forms -- come from?
I don't have one. There is no solid, compelling evidence to push me in any direction.
quote: The universe is way to ordered for me to believe that things just "happened" to fall together in just the right order to create life. The probability of the necessary amino acids combining in such a was as to form a protein molecule are pretty staggering. Check out this site for more of the specific problems with the Darwinistic theory of evolution.
How many planets are there? How many years have passed? It's not too unreasonable to propose that on one of the trillions of planets over the billions of years a bizzarly unlikely combination of events occured.
Not saying, mind you, that your attack isn't a problem on Evolution. It is, in fact, the biggest factor against it, at least IMO.
The thing is you give a problem on a specific theory of how life started. Then you propose your own theory, namely God.
There still, however, is no evidence in favor of God as a valid answer. While in favor of evolution are a plethora of supports.
Furthermore, even if we discredit evolution, that doesn't automatically make God a good theory.
To make my thoughts clear:
Question: How did life happen?
Answer: Umm... random combination of proteins led to a heterotrophic organism. Take some more randomness, and you get autotrophic organisms. Which leads to oxygen, which leads to aerobic respiration et cetra.
Question: So much randomness! Not good theory.
Answer: Eh. Trillions of planets! Billions of years! Good theory!
Question: Maybe. Any other ideas?
Answer: God!
Question: Why?
Answer: Uh...there aren't any valid attacks on my theory?
Question: Okay. Now where are the supports?
Posts: 3060 | Registered: Nov 2003
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posted
Firstly, the origin of life has nothing to do with evolution, and any site that claims or suggests such can be quickly adjudged scientifically clueless.
Secondly, that article makes laughable claims. For instance:
quote:Let us for an instant suppose that life came about by chance as evolutionists claim it did. In this case, the right- and left-handed amino acids that were generated by chance should be present in roughly equal proportions in nature.
utter nonsense. Lots of things that arise "by chance" can have a heavy bias one way or the other. For instance, say I make a series of die rolls (on a six sided die). If a die roll's total is 4 or greater, then I add 1 to the total of every die roll that follows. If a die roll's total is 3 or less, then I subtract 1 from the total of every die roll that follows. After a relatively small number of die rolls, my total is always going to be one way or the other. According to this site, that's impossible. Also, how on earth do they know protein left and right handed protein structures are equally likely? We certainly don't know that for a fact. In fact, we know that the likelihoods are not the same in many situations! see here: http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB040.html
Then they start making false claims:
quote:how not even a single right-handed amino acid gets involved in the life process, is a problem that still baffles evolutionists.
No such thing. There are right handed amino acids that get involved at times. Certain cell membranes, for instance, use them.
Having found not a single thing that takes more than a few seconds thought and/or research by someone with a basic knowledge of biology to dismiss on that site, I suggest you take your "evidence" from somewhere else.
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posted
This debate has been done a million times and never leads anywhere. The problem is, both sides believe that the naturalist's explanations and the belief in an intelligent creator are mutually exclusive.
Posts: 6 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
As I originally stated, I cannot prove or disprove God. Nor do I believe anyone else can either.
Being taught about God from infancy may have me somewhat predisposed to a belief in Him, so it's going to take someone a significant amount of effort to convince me that He doesn't exist. It makes sense to me that someone or something created this world, and the life that is in it. Believing that the earth and life on it happened by chance is the equivalent, IMO, of saying that No One + Nothing = Everything.
I agree with you that I haven't heard any other theories that make any kind of sense to me. Especially taking into consideration experiences like the one I shared the post above, I'm willing to make the 'leap of faith' that Creation was the result of the actions of a Supremem Being. The one I choose to believe is that Creator is the God of the Bible. I have not encountered any evidence that refutes that belief.
The website I linked above makes some interesting claims. I admit that I'm not a biologist, and I don't have an in depth understanding of what it takes to create life. What I have read from this site and from other sources is enough to convince me that it's extremely complex, and despite the number of planets out there, I still have trouble wrapping my head around the idea that it all fell in place, and all works together so seamlessly just by accident.
Posts: 159 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
Ralphie: Note that I, the usual suspect didn't post it this time. I posted a completely different h2g2 quote instead. Satyagraha
Posts: 1986 | Registered: Apr 2001
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quote: This debate has been done a million times and never leads anywhere. The problem is, both sides believe that the naturalist's explanations and the belief in an intelligent creator are mutually exclusive.
I don't think they are mutually exclusive at all. That is, I believe in God, and in evolution by natural selection. I don't think the two beliefs contradict one another.
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posted
I just wish people who wanted to go around saying how science is so clearly misguided and wrong would consider actually learning a little science now and then, instead of repeatedly putting forth easily refutable claims. For instance, that site currently says right handed amino acids never occur in natural processes, which is a complete falsehood. I'm certain they've been told the correct thing by someone who knows better (they're a high result in google for the (non existent) "amino acid issue") why has the site not been corrected?.
I repeat, I looked around that site for a bit, and I could find not a single claim that someone with a good basic understanding of biology and a bit of minor research could not poke full of huge, gaping holes. I'm willing to show how for any particular claim someone would care to point me to.
I can't help but feel that maybe your beliefs about the origin of life on earth might be a bit better founded, BlueJacsFan, if you didn't allow yourself to be taken in by base charlatans.
posted
The whole argument about evolution really has little to do with proving or disproving the existence of god, it all comes down to an argument about probability theory.
the initial claim which was made in support of god's existence, that creation requires a creator, is even less convincing, and requires little more to refute than to ask who created god. if god can exist in such a way that first causation is not necessary, there is no logical reason all of existence cannot also exist without first causation.
or, (to argue against god's existence), we can look at the problem of evil. if god is good and loving why would he allow evil to exist in the world?
these arguments go on and on and always ends up nowhere.
Posts: 380 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
A Christian friend of mine once sent me this lie that has circulated for decades as "proof" of The Bible and thus proof of God. I explained to him why the claim is patently ridiculous from a mathematical, logical, and scientific standpoint and he remained unconvinced - after all, I'm not a scientist so what could I possibly know about it. I emailed NASA public relations and forwarded to him the reply I got that "yes" the story is false, and I sent him to www.snopes.com. Eventually, he conceded that the story was a myth, but continued to rationalize that "hey, it's faith promoting and helps people believe in God" so it's still a good story. I've encountered this line of reasoning quite a bit. To at least a few "Christians", it's OK to lie if it's in the service of God.
THAT is why the site linked above has not been corrected.
posted
Considering the amino acids would more than likely have been formed in an achiral environment yes, there should be a 50/50 ratio of them. Somewhere along the line there must have been some sort of selective pressure to push it to the left handed forms; but we have no idea what that would be. It's one of the biggest mysteries of modern biology.
It was curious to see that the extraterrestrial amino acids isolated from the Murchison Meteorite had a statistically significant preference to the L configuration. Does that mean that there are other cosmological environments that are rich in L enantiomers? Why would they be? Does it have any impact on life on earth? Does it mean there might be life on other planets that displays the same handedness?
As an aside, it's also worth noting that amino acids aren't exclusive to earth so I don't wanna hear any more "They can't be formed by random chance" arguments. Can they organize into the ridiculously complex organisms that litter the earth today? God only knows. Unless he doesn't exist. But either way I don't know.
posted
I found a quote somewhere by someone; I know I wrote it down, but I can't recall where... but it's not too hard, so here goes: "The existence of God will never be proven. Must we lift a candle to see the sun?" --Unknown (I think it starts with a "W"...)
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