posted
That’s what my aunt jokingly wanted to know when she accompanied my uncle to Utah for his brother’s funeral.
I thought that question was in poor taste on so many levels, but I couldn’t come up with a quick retort.
Why I thought it was wrong:
1. The question implied that one group of people could be “kept” by another. 2. The question suggested that my aunt was observing people and assigning colors to them. 3. The question implied that a single ethnic group could lay claim to a color, ignoring the fact that many ethnic groups, including Maori and other Pacific Islanders, Native Australians, and Africans often refer to themselves as black. 4. The question was said in a manner to express disappointment at not being able to find an individual of the preferred ethnicity.
Does it make any difference to know that my aunt is of African descent or that she is a college-educated professional?
While I am on the subject, I might repeat an infrequently asked question: "where are Hatrack’s black people?" I'm pretty sure they would have announced their presence if they were here.
When the Hispanics and Asians here at Hatrack declare their ethnicity in their posts, I believe they are doing so to give us a feel for their background. By simply knowing their ethnicity, we get a feel for the kinds of traditions and culture they might have had in their homes growing up; there’s the possibility of a second language being spoken in the home; there’s the history of hardships that come with being part of an ethnic minority. So expressing one’s ethnicity is often a quick way of saying a lot.
Perhaps Hatrack's Asians and Hispanics also declare their ethnicity because they are interested in finding others with a common background, and that common background becomes fuel for thread discussions. However, I'm sure that we all have enough in common that we could find plenty of topics to discuss even if we were to discover that we were the only African here.
If one of Hatrack’s Hispanics or Asians came to Utah for a funeral, would he keep an eye out for other Hispanics and Asians? Would he feel a sense of relief and kinship when he found someone of his ethnicity? Would he go right up to that person and immediately have a dozen things in common to talk about? I wouldn’t think so. Neither would a person of European descent go looking for other Europeans when attending a funeral in China, unless said European suspected that prejudice against Europeans was prevalent in China and wanted to observe how other Europeans were treated in China.
I think that’s what my aunt really wanted to express. She didn’t see any other people of African descent in Utah and maybe wondered if people of her ethnicity were not welcome here or not treated well. Given the history of racial prejudice against people of African descent, I could see how that might be a constant question in the back of her mind: "how are black people faring in these parts."
I’m glad that I didn’t say anything to my aunt about her question.
posted
Actually, it's probablt the difference from national population statistics that Utah has that caused her to question it. Outside of the larger cities, seeing any ethnicity outside of "white caucasian" is pretty rare in Utah and a few other states. It was noticable when I was there. Of course, I spoke to someone else about it and they told me of a rather rude instance in a hotel there, too: a black couple was told there were no more rooms, and the person I spoke to, who was in line behind them, began leaving right after the black couple. The person I spoke to was stopped and told that there was a room available for them, just not the other couple, with a knowing wink.
The person I spoke to left immediately.
Posts: 1170 | Registered: Jan 2003
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I have heard similar things, and it is like you say at the end of your post -- she just didn't SEE any black people, so in her humorous way was trying to say "where are you hiding them?" Because she noticed an absence of whatever she was expecting.
But then again, I didn't hear her say it, so don't know her tone. But that's just how it rings to me.
posted
I think she was making a flippant comment on the racial homogeneity of the area, which is true. She could have just said, "Man, y'all are a bunch of crackers!"
Posts: 8504 | Registered: Aug 1999
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posted
I'm sick of feeling like I have to apologize for Utah's "homogeneity." One, it's like calling the whole population "cultureless." Two, it's simply not true.
Posts: 5957 | Registered: Oct 2001
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posted
The issue here isn't that Utah is cultureless - it's that it's a lot more homogeneous than other major US cities. It's just a relative observation. Utah culture is a lot more streamlined than other areas.
Posts: 8504 | Registered: Aug 1999
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posted
I kind of had the opposite reaction when I returned home to the South after serving a mission in Orange County (where there are many members of nonwhite minorities, but relatively few blacks — mostly hispanics, asians, and islanders).
When I stepped off the airplane, I was like, "Whoah! Black people! I'm home!" And honestly, I'm hard-pressed to figure out what's wrong with that. There is nothing inherently insulting in noticing an individual's race, or in recognizing the racial makeup of your society. I don't think we gain ANYTHING by being so touchy about race that the mere mention of the subject ruffles feathers. People come from different heritages, and have different common features. Noticing these facts doesn't imply contempt or dislike for one race or another. It's just part of being human.
Posts: 1907 | Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
Even so, Annie, people so often make that observation in a way that makes me feel like they want me, a white male, to apologize for it.
And the "City of Utah" does have some cultural diversity to it, in a pleasing spectrum of subtlety. It's not a huge salad like L.A. or N.Y.C., perhaps, but I think it's enough to be above reproach.
Posts: 5957 | Registered: Oct 2001
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posted
Watched a movie recently where they were asking someone if they'd seen a guy, big and tall, kind of businesslike? The described person was also black, but that was left out. I wondered what was so offensive that they didn't describe his ethnicity? I mean, what if the person being asked had just seen a big, tall, white guy in a suit?
Am I going to get offended if someone calls me a white girl with auburn hair?
Carefully avoiding a true description of the man puts more stigma on being described as black than describing him as black would have been.
Posts: 438 | Registered: Apr 2004
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From the LDS perspective on cultural and ethnic diversity in metropolitan Utah, I am aware of several LDS congregations here in the metro area, established for speakers of other languages. One of two 600-member Portuguese-speaking congregations meets in my building. My friend is the bishop of the Navajo ward (congregation) in Provo. There are two Japanese-speaking wards in Salt Lake. There are at least four Tongan wards. There are several Spanish-Speaking wards. There are also Russian, Laotian-Thai, Korean, Samoan, Chinese, and Cambodian congregations, each with 300 to 600 members. And that’s just LDS congregations.
The stated goal of these non-English-speaking congregations is that they are a temporary waypoint for immigrants to ease their integration into the main body. The members of these congregations are urged to join their local, English-speaking congregations as quickly as they feel comfortable. My friend is the branch president of the Portuguese congregation, and he views the members of his congregation as temporary, his job being to get them ready to attend an English-speaking ward.
The Black people in my neighborhood speak English and attend their local ward as one would expect. They don't feel a need to drive clear across town to attend church with other black people. Neither do they have their own corner at the cemetery, nor do they hang out at the airport to welcome black visitors. There is not any particular place one could go around here to satisfy one's burning desire to see a black person. They are "streamlined," meaning they don't stick out.
Posts: 2655 | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote: Carefully avoiding a true description of the man puts more stigma on being described as black than describing him as black would have been.
This reminds me of a few years ago when I was new in an area, a woman I had just met was explaining her relationships to several people I already knew. She was trying to describe her brother-in-law, and she gave me his name, height, build, coloring, his wife's name, how he usually dressed, what kind of car he drove... finally she whispered to me, "He's the one without an arm." If she'd only said that FIRST, but of course, how insensitive is that?
Posts: 2069 | Registered: May 2001
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posted
For the next time they're behind you, you can answer "Right behind you so they can kick your *** when you make such an inconsiderate remark."
That's just me though, the person probably was just commenting on the homogeniality of the place, but I find myself very offended when race is considered in almost any way shape or form, I don't see it as a factor for anything when comparing people. Of course, my superior skin allows me to almost never burn, and Jackie Chan movies have taught us all Asians are great at martial arts, but that's just genetics. Satyagraha
Posts: 359 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
I spent three years in Laredo, Texas. The town has a population of almost 200,000 and is 97% hispanic. It has the largest minority population of any city in the United States.
There are only two or three families in the town that are non-hispanic that consider themselves natives to the area (lived there many years). Most non-hispanics are just people that have been transferred in by their companies and then leave after a few years in a different transfer.
I used to have a black man working for me there as my assistant manager. He told me that there were two other black men in town (that were there for the baseball program at the juco) and one family. He said that he had never felt like such a minority in his life, but that he encountered a different kind of prejudice.
For many of the people in the town, he was the first or only black man they had ever seen. Many wanted to know if the stereotypes were true or asked why his palms were not as black as the rest of his skin. A lot of women threw themselves at him for the "honor" of saying that they "dated" a black man. He hated this.
He also hated the fact that he had to drive 2 1/2 hours north to San Antonio just to find someone who knew how to cut his hair.
Utah is not the only place in this country that has few blacks. There are others, like Laredo, that also have few whites, orientals, or indians!
Posts: 279 | Registered: May 2004
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posted
I get really peeved when people won't use the most obvious descriptor when they are talking about a person. There is NOTHING wrong with being, black, white, dusky, or any other desciptive term you can imagine. The onus lies in two areas, your perception of the descriptive term and the message that you include. Simply using the term black to describe someone's skin color is NOT prejudicial.
Posts: 2022 | Registered: Mar 2004
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Well, except for the occasional visit by Irami Osei-Frimpong, some folks here have pretty much chased AfricanAmericans off this forum fairly quickly after they announce their ethnicity. Nothin' like several threads proclaiming eg "RodneyKing viciously attacked 24 police officers by beating his head and body against police nightsticks." to make this forum sound like a friendly place to discuss ideas. Wouldn't surprise me none if more than a few read-only visitors decided, "Well, that's a bit too friendly for me to wanna join in the conversation."
Kinda like this thread proclaiming insensitivity to white folks' feelin's cuz "my aunt...of African descent" "jokingly wanted to know" "Where do you keep your black people?"
Despite the ridiculous title of your post, I think you raise some pretty interesting questions. More intriguingly, nearly every post that followed it bears witness to the legitimacy of your aunt's question. i.e. This place is soooo white! (well versed, but white, nonetheless)
anyhow, the one bit I didn't get was your judgement that your aunt's remark was "wrong"?
fallow
edit: and while I'm asking questions... why is is that I can NEVER make a single post without a freaking spelling error? damn hatrack gremlins!
"The issue here isn't that Utah is cultureless - it's that it's a lot more homogeneous than other major US cities. It's just a relative observation. Utah culture is a lot more streamlined than other areas."
Maybe, but as for the homogeneous nature I'd say that Oakland or Washington DC is more homogeneous (majority black) than Salt Lake City is.
Posts: 232 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
I thought that Salt Lake had a lot of different cultures. Not many blacks, 'cause apparently they all live in Tooele. But there were quite a few Native Americans, among with some others.
I'm about as white as it gets (ancestry is English and German), and I definitely notice it if I'm in a crowd of people that is all or nearly all white. It makes me nervous.
Now, you have to understand, I grew up in southern California, which is definitely multicultural. Fresno, the largest city close to where I live now, is also hugely multicultural. And the town I live in is about 80 per cent Hispanic. So I'm used to being around people from all backgrounds and with all shades of skin color. It's a mix I like very much.
So, while I wouldn't have used the specific wording in the title of this thread, I might well have said something like, "It is awfully white around here, isn't it?" I guess I just find it more natural to be around people with a wide variety of ethnic backgrounds.
Posts: 2454 | Registered: Jan 2003
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quote:...this thread proclaiming insensitivity to white folks' feelin's
fallow:
quote:...your judgement that your aunt's remark was "wrong"
I've concluded that I was wrong to be offended. I think anybody traveling in a strange place, and finding himself in the minority, is going to be curious to know how others of his ethnic group are faring. However, I think it would have been better in this case to ask directly rather than to affect stereotypical ethnic mannerisms and dredge up painful images of one group "keeping" another.
Posts: 2655 | Registered: Feb 2004
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I'm putting myself (him) in my aunt's shoes. The application seems more universal if I change gender in the middle of the story.
C'mon Fallow, skipping a logical step or two and allowing the audience to fill in the blanks is your trademark. That's what makes your posts so fun. Posts: 2655 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
Er. Heh. Skillery, dude, I think you're reading too much into this.
Imagine you were a white person thrust into a state of startlingly homogenized black people. Let's also toss into the mix a famous stereotype of all-black states, or of states with black elites, that whites are judged to some degree by their skin color and dialect, if not outright persecuted.
Would you notice if you were in a state with no white people?
Colorblindness isn't a virtue. Especially if you're a member of the minority you're supposed to be colorblind to.
Hell, I'd get nervous in Utah, and I'm a big honking gringo. I imagine I'd feel the same if I were fully white. Going from the notable diversity of Los Angeles to staggeringly white Utah would throw me for a loop, at least initially -- and I'm a white boy. I feel for your aunt.
Posts: 3293 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
Hey, Eddie, if ever you are in Utah and starting to feel nervous, just get yourself up to the University of Utah campus and scream "Sanctuary!" They'll take you in and help you feel comfortable. Posts: 5957 | Registered: Oct 2001
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So if I'm nervous in Paducah because of all the black people, that's not bad?
Just looking for clarification. It'd be convenient and easy, though not particularly moral IMO, to revert to the standard attitude in my home county.
Posts: 1114 | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:aspectre - What the hell are you talking about.
Thank you, Ralphie. I had the same reaction, but I thought since I don't open every thread, I might have missed something. But aspectre's recounting of Hatrack's history seems really out of character for the place ...
Posts: 1907 | Registered: Feb 2000
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I don't really take notice of ethinicity unless I actually see a picture of a person. Heck I mix up some of the hatrack male and females on a regular basis.
That having been said, I echo lma. It was extremely weird to move from Southern CA to Norman, Oklahoma. I went from being the different minority (in the neighborhood that I lived in) to looking like everyone else. The thing was the people who didn't look like everyone else were shocked that I talked to them. That made me sad.
I feel much more comfortable in Chicago. I also fear less for the one I love, who is multi racial, because here he blends in more.
posted
After all I said yesterday about people not feeling a need to drive across town to be with others of their own ethnic group, I was listening to the sports talk show on KSL radio last evening, and they were talking about why the Utah Jazz is having trouble luring good players, and one reason that was mentioned is that there really isn’t a black community here. Then some guy called in claiming to be black, and he said that all those black basketball players have to do if they want to be with other blacks is to drive to Ogden..."that’s what I do." I think he was lying.
Posts: 2655 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
I haven't noticed a particularly large black population in Ogden. Hispanic, yes, but that doesn't make Ogden all that different from many other Utah communities.
Posts: 1652 | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
That ties in with my comment about Tooele. I did notice a lot more black people in Tooele, West Valley, and other 'burbs than I did in the actual center of Salt Lake City.
Regarding "noticing" black people: I was raised in a place with no white people besides my family and a couple others. The majority was black and I feel nervous when I haven't seen any for a while. Maybe it sounds stupid, but I feel more comfortable with blacks than anyone else.
At any rate, seeing a few in West Valley (at Cracka' Barrel) was a breath of fresh air for me.
posted
Living in Missouri I have visited Branson, quite often.
One would imagine this bastion of WASP culture -- Silver Dollar City which enjoys bringing back the good old days of the 1860's-- would be very pale. The crowds are diverse, and becoming more so every year. My favorite note, when I visited there during their World Culture Tribute, they had shows from around the world. The only show which required you to arrive an hour early if you wanted a seat, was the Caribean Music Show with an all African(Caribean) American cast.
Admitedly, the Dolly Parton Review, which plays up the spledor of traditional Southern life, plantations and formal dresses, was missing anyone with even a good tan (There was more ethnic diversity in the show than there was in the audience of several hundred). It was when I was watching that show that I felt uncomfortable in my Majority-Whiteness. I could imagine someone shouting to the good ole folk on the plantation, "Hey, where you keep your color'd folk?"
Posts: 11895 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
That one of a kind shirt I made myself.(Iron-on transfer) Hatrack sells t-shirts with that design, although smaller, and the other army insignias through their store.
My wife was complaining that my laughing during these late night sessions was disturbing her sleep. So I showed her one of your posts. I think you've got another fan.
Posts: 2655 | Registered: Feb 2004
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If she'd only said that FIRST, but of course, how insensitive is that?
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