posted
ok I know its been like a year since this thing came out, but I re-read it recently and it still stinks. Can't believe I waited for four years for this piece of junk. Honestly, The woman had all that time this was the best she could do. I ended up getting frustrated with Harry time and again, he goes from being a humble sweet kid to an arogant jerk.
anybody agree, or disagree?
Posts: 70 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
thinking of some of my friends who were that age when the book came out, they did the exact same thing, so i don't think she was too far off.
Posts: 5362 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
He's a teenage boy. Most of them go through an irritating stage.
In fact, we're lucky Rowling still gave Harry dialogue. In my experience, an occasional grunt (accompanied by an optional eye roll) would have had more verisimilitude.
posted
I disagree totally. Harry's angry in the book because he's been through a lot of stuff through the other 4 books. Who can blame him from being in such a bad mood?
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Just finished rereading it this weekend, myself. I enjoyed it. Yeah, Harry's not always pleasant, but it's in character for him, and true to his age.
It's a good book, but not great. I still feel that the ending is a letdown. Something about the whole battle in the Ministry of Magic just feels off to me, or something. Just didn't enjoy it as much as I enjoyed the others.
Posts: 1805 | Registered: Jun 1999
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posted
The fact that you dislike a character doesn't mean that the quality of the writing has decreased. Perhaps JKR's intention was that you become frustrated at Harry's actions, much the same way as Harry is frustrated by his life? In other words, JKR may have been trying to evoke Harry's mood in the readers, and I think she was sucessful at doing that.
Posts: 196 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Sirius went from a cool uncle to a sulking juvenile who acts nothing like the key resistance fighter we are led to believe he was in the days before James and Lily's deaths.
And his death took on an "oh, by the way...Sirius dies" quality that just irritated me.
The whole story just seemed an exercise in being anti-climatical (?)
Although I'm taking bets Percy is secretly working undercover for Dumbledore. At least I hope so - I'd hate to think he really is that one-dimensional.
posted
I liked that he wasn't the same old Harry. I felt that it was one of the more sucessful things about the book.
I didn't like the way Sirus died as well. It seemed that she sort of threw that in there for more punch in the scene. I respct the fact that she was trying to show that the kids hard been very, very lucky up to then that no one had died, but I wasn't satisfied with the way it happened. I had to reread it to see what had happened...it didn't even register the first time through!
I agree with the decision to make Harry bratty, but I don't see why Sirus suddenly became 14 again. At least that was how he was acting.
posted
Sirius's behaviour made sense. He had no family. He lost his best friend. He's trapped in a house he hates after years of being free from that. And he got out of prison just to be put in another prison. Of COURSE he's going to act like an adolescent! He has these people hanging out with him, then they have to leave and come and go and leave him all alone with his thoughts. Sure he's going to sulk! He can't be heroic all the time. That's just not realistic.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Kinda hard to bet on a copy of the next Harry Potter book, since we'll probably both buy it anyway...
Problem with this kind of bet though is that we probably won't be able to settle it until book 7 comes out, and that's gonna be years and years... so you'd have to promise to make sure to post in, oh, 3 or 4 years so I can collect on the bet Posts: 2911 | Registered: Aug 2001
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good point about sirius. Nail on the head there. Someone whom is supposed to be that powerful shouldn't have just died, but I think they way in which he died leaves an opening for some sort of ... he's not really dead ... come back later. A sort of Daytime television thing.
Posts: 70 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
I would also like to say that I think it is very funny how you guys are trying to rationalize JKR's writing by comparing it to reality. Give me a break. We want are heros to have human qualities so that we can better relate to them, but no one likes an ass. Also Sirius never had any family or friends in books 3 and 4 so now in 5 he is all the sudden going to start feeling pent up about it. come on. The book stunk.
posted
How else would you ever judge a character other than comparing it to reality?
No matter where (world or location) a book is set the characters should still be true to life. And in Harry's case, that means an adolescent boy.
Posts: 4393 | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
Are you serious?! Its a fantasy novel. FANTASY. You understand what that means right? And Harry is its hero. A hero is something above and beyond what we are all capable of. Does superman falter, any chinks in batmans armor, what about spidey? Yeah sure they are trip every now and then but the fact of the matter is they always get back up the stronger for it. Its what we demand from our heros. Yes they need a few human qualities but They are all super-naturally larger than life. People continue to read all of these stories because it provides a brief escape from reality, not reality itself.
Posts: 70 | Registered: Jan 2003
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You're fighting the greatest evil your world has ever known, a creature's whose very name strikes so much terror in his victims they refuse to speak it...and you're still going to act like a juvenile throwing a temper-tantrum?
You're obeying the orders of the greatest, wisest and most powerful wizard around and you pout and sulk, even in the face of "You Know Who" and the reign of terror he's caused? That you've lived through?
Sorry, I just can't buy it. I've considered the "he's faking his death and is going to make a surprise return" but I think that's more wishful thinking on my part than any real possibility.
please do not mistake sarcasm for insults. That goes for everyone here. I love this forum, the last thing I would want is for people to get upset, personally, by things that I say.
Posts: 70 | Registered: Jan 2003
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quote:Are you serious?! Its a fantasy novel. FANTASY. You understand what that means right? And Harry is its hero. A hero is something above and beyond what we are all capable of. Does superman falter, any chinks in batmans armor, what about spidey? Yeah sure they are trip every now and then but the fact of the matter is they always get back up the stronger for it. Its what we demand from our heros. Yes they need a few human qualities but They are all super-naturally larger than life. People continue to read all of these stories because it provides a brief escape from reality, not reality itself.
I hate to break this to you, but you're confusing comic book super-heroes and the human, flawed heroes that comprise fantasy novels. The examples you give - superman, spiderman, batman - are all comic book super heroes. Harry Potter is the hero of a novel. If Harry was perfect, THEN the books would be boring.
And according to one of JKR's interviews, she purposely wrote Sirius' death without fanfare, almost as an accident, to try to show that in real life, that's often how death is - without any big sirens blaring, just a sudden absence of this person from the world. I'm not sure if I've formed an opinion on whether this was the best way to deal with Sirius' deat in the HP novels, but it was intended.
Posts: 196 | Registered: Jul 2002
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quote:Are you serious?! Its a fantasy novel. FANTASY. You understand what that means right? And Harry is its hero. A hero is something above and beyond what we are all capable of. Does superman falter, any chinks in batmans armor, what about spidey?
You obviously need your definition of "hero" re-worked. A hero isn't flawless and a "hero" isn't exclusively a person who is above and beyond in the sense of super powers- get your mind out of the comic books and focus on what true heroism is.
posted
Also, Spidey is great because he does falter...that is why Peter Parker is still Spidey, because of his very human mistakes.
Also, Superman has made mistakes, even lost his powers.
I don't think all fantasy has to be the heroic, all-powerful Conan stuff...where he is perfect, and if he makes a mistake there is no real concequence to it..
I think it made for a better read...why would ANYONE want to read 5 books where the main protaginist never changes, or is always perfect.
Not a great book, but not too bad...IMO.
Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
Sirius is human. I think his reactions were very natural given his character. Especially when you consider that he was NOT fighting Voldemort, he was sitting at home watching as all of his friends risked their lives and not able to do anything about it.
And then he gets a chance to do something about it, something that no one can fault him for doing because he'll be saving someone they all need. OF COURSE he takes it. Would you have done any differently in his place?
Posts: 4655 | Registered: Jan 2002
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posted
I agree that the fifth book felt a bit like being followed around by a really annoying kid. I liked that though. I liked that Rowling showed a different side of Harry. I recently read it again and was not nearly as annoyed as the first time. I suppose I paid more attention to how funny Fred, George, and Ginny were. In my opinion Rowling made this the most annoying book so far, but also the funniest. Essentially, I look at the 5th book as a bridge between the beginning and end of the series. In a way I was expecting some loose ends and possibly bothersome plot twists, so in the end, I liked it.
Posts: 84 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
I didn't like Sirius's change in behaviour either at first - but I can accept it more now after seeing The Prisoner of Azkaban. For some reason, the movie (more than the book) conveyed to me the impression that Sirius always had the irresponsible and immature streak within him.
In a lot of ways, he never grew out of his school boy days - and that is exacerbated by all the goings on in Book 5.
Posts: 4393 | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
OOOKAY first, you should know by now that everything that every character does in these books is for a reason. Harry was sulking as a direct result to the fact that he normally knew EVERYTHING that was going on around him, and then all of a sudden, he is left in the dark. it turned his world around, and that affected his entire life. Sirius died for a reason, a simple and maybe not a full reason for this is the fact that Harry is starting to relate with Luna some more, this, i believe, will lead to a relationship with luna that will end in shambles. this relationship will end due to the reasons of Luna's weirdness and Harry moving on with life. as we all know, ron and hermione will get together, because they already bicker and make up like they are married. it is inevitable that Harry and Ginny will get together, they make the perfect couple, and ginny is no longer afraid of harry. i dont know why you all complain, you should know that everything works out, and that harry will succeed, it is JUST THE DETAILS you are complaining about. Posts: 19 | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
I'm rereading this right now, and I'm struck by how wonderful it is. There's layers. Like an onion has layers.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Sirius was a time bomb since he escaped from Azkaban. Seriously (Siriusly!), He was wrongly accused of killing his best friends, spent twelve years getting his soul beaten up by the foulest creatures in existence, escaped to expose the man who WAS responsible for the death of his best friends and FAILED, and spent a year in the house where he suffered who knows how much emotional abuse at the hands of his parents only to die trying to save the only person in the world who loves him. If you ask me, he's had a pretty crappy life..
Posts: 4089 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
JK Rowling made it clear from Book 3 that Sirius enjoyed taking risks. Look at what he tried to do to Snape--this was not a responsible person. And he's spent most of his adult life in circumstances that were, shall we say, not conducive to the development of great maturity.
(That said, he was my second favorite character after Lupin, and I was crushed when he died...it seems too mean for Rowling to orphan Harry twice.)
So I think it's quite understandable and certainly what we could have come to expect from Sirius that he would have done this. I mean, he was consistently taking risks for Harry in Book 4, coming to Hogsmeade and all. If Harry was in danger, there was no way Sirius wasn't going to come and help him out...
quote:People continue to read all of these stories because it provides a brief escape from reality, not reality itself.
This is the common charge made of all speculative fiction, and it's bogus coming from both SF's supporters and detractors. The supporters are generally people who like swords and elves and don't care about the sub-creation aspects of the literature. These people miss out on most of the joy of good SF.
Detractors use it to dismiss SF - it's just escapism, not some thousand page novel about a single day in Dublin. It's the reaction of the literary snobs who were horrified that Lord of the Rings was voted Best Book of the 20th century in England.
Both sides miss the point of fantasy, sci-fi, and other speculative fiction. Someone called it putting real toads in an imaginary garden, and that's as good a way of describing it as anything. What SF in all it's forms does is allow authors to investigate and speculate on what aspects of the human condition are inherent to it, and which aspects are caused by the limitations of science (or lack of magic, or whatever the SF author has changed about the real world). Alternatively, this can be done with the whole world - these things are very different, but see how much remains the same? I believe much of the deep satisfaction derived from Tolkien is related to this aspect of his work.
Some of the themes explored better in SF than anywhere else include the nature of power (Tolkien, Donaldson, Brooks), gender roles (Card, Le Guinn, and a host of others), acceptance of differences in others (JKR, Card), and the nature of belief (Pratchett, Donaldson). There are scores of other examples for each of these, and scores of other themes. Then there's Dune, which does almost all of these and then some, but which is hard to categorize.
Of course, any good literature can be used for escape, and a lot of bad literature, too. But good fantasy, which JKR has produced, provides both escapism and some thematic statement on the human condition. The fact that she expects readers to accept her heroes, flaws and all, is a plus, not a minus.
posted
I figured out why everyone is reading this book. Movie #3 came out, everyone reread that book #3, and...yep, middle of July. Just on time for the general reading public to get to #5. Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
People continue to read all of these stories because it provides a brief escape from reality, not reality itself.
A brief escape? The book weighs ten pounds!
And I disagree, for reasons that Dagonnee already covered perfectly. While I might enjoy turning my brain off to enjoy a potboiler novel, the books I return to are ones that teach me something every time I read them.
Posts: 7790 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
Yes, Sirius was a risk-taker from the beginning. A bit arrogant, probably, given his pureblood upbringing and privaledge. Reckless. That is utterly consistent in the books.
Also, I recently visited my family, staying in the bedroom of my youth (different furniture, different arrangement, etc. but STILL), and it was very easy to slip back into the old patterns of teenaged behavior, even with my husband there and children to look after. Funny , that.
Seriously, when I get together with my whole family (older sister and brother) I'm six again. Raising my hand and bouncing in my seat at the dinner table, just trying to get a word in edgewise. It's vaguely disturbing. Posts: 1664 | Registered: Apr 2004
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quote: Are you serious?! Its a fantasy novel. FANTASY. You understand what that means right? And Harry is its hero. A hero is something above and beyond what we are all capable of. Does superman falter, any chinks in batmans armor, what about spidey?
Don't confuse character development with plot development. Comic books don't have any character development because they're all about keeping you entertained without making you think. If you don't like thinking, you won't like reading most well-developed novels.
Posts: 6367 | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
At first I thought OotP was awful. I hated it. I couldn't stand the fact that she just offed Sirius. Harry - don't even get me started. I thought he was everything I hated in kids, and I thought of him as a kid. Still. I disliked the adults, I wanted to smack Hermione, Ron could go shove his broomstick up his blind arse, and Ginny all of a sudden became cool? I didn't understand what was going on and I hated it. The other four books I saw, I understood, they resolved (mostly) for me.
Then I thought about it for a long time (read: last July until today). And I realized that that was what the characters were going through. Put yourself in their situation: no one's telling you anything. You're locked in your own house with people taunting you and flaunting (sometimes inadvertently) that they're actually doing something. You don't have all the information. How do you react to this? Badly. And that's how I reacted to the books. I don't know. I think I didn't like the book because I was feeling the confusion and annoyance of the characters. I didn't like not having a real end. But that's life. And I had to realize that while Harry epitomized everything I hated about kids, he was one! I guess I fell into the trap he hates - making him the savior and not knowing the boy beneath. And you can't always understand life. It's just not possible.
Now I love the book and need to get home so I can read it again. Though I still loathe Ginny and wish her happiness with Goyle, I think Hermione could use a good slap, and Ron, well, Ron can still shove it
And yes, heroes falter. Overcoming the faltering is what makes them heroes.
Posts: 3932 | Registered: Sep 1999
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I thought Sirius's death particularly well done precisely because it was so anti-climactic. It seemed very real and gave a great reinder of how fragile everything is. We've seen Harry (and other heroes) cheat death so often, I thin it's easy to forget how deadly the world can be. There was video of an Iraqi being gunned down circulating the internet a few weeks ago. You see a guy kneeling in the street, aiming an RPG, then a couple of tracers and he falls over dead. That's it. No glory, explosions, or John Woo death ballet. Just a living breathing person who a second later isn't.
In fact, Rowling hints that this is one of the most terrible things about Arvada Cadavera-- it's so sudden. Death (I have seen it) is most often like that. A quick theft perfromed by slight of hand... even in cases where it isn't. Like Harry, we have to sit and mull and it takes time to convince us he's gone... "that can't be *it*," we think, "surely there must be more than that simple fluff and he's gone forever?"
The answer is "no. That is all there is. That's all it takes." Hug your loved ones... they can be gone that fast and for that little reason.
of course, that is all undone if she brings him back... but I found it one of the more eloquent and painful parts of a truly excellent book.
Posts: 3846 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
It is only to be expected that Harry Potter should have some annoying, boorish tendencies--after all, he is his father's son, and his father was a bully who tormented Snape unforgiveably.
Posts: 3742 | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
I loved that Harry was unlikable in many places. I've found him mildly unlikable all along. He's not a "nice" kid. Which is what makes him interesting.
Posts: 3141 | Registered: Apr 2000
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