posted
So, is Doubleday going to lose money on printing a $25 hardbound copy of The Book of Mormon? This is the best place I could find to ask this question, as Hatrack has pretty knowledgable collection of Mormons and "Gentiles" when it comes to books.
Who would buy this book? Why would Doubleday want to print it? I can see Mormons going out and buying it out of curiosity and a sense of religious devotion, but I am not sure about others outside of libraries. This might not be a gamble per-say, but will its intended audience really exist? In fact, is there an intended audience? It just seems a rather superfluous printing.
posted
I think it is a sound investment. I don't think Mormons will buy the book, but as the church continues to grow and become more public, I think there will be an increased academic interest in the religion. I don't think it will be a best seller, but I do think it will do as well (and possibly better) as the Koran.
I think there will also be an increased interest in the religion as Homosexual marriage becomes more accepted. I am sure the polygamy will challange the current law and Mormonism will again become a national headline.
I liked this quote from your article.
quote: Then again, the $25 version comes with no strings attached. Two people with name tags will not follow you home from Barnes & Noble on their bikes and ask if you'd like to, you know, know more.
posted
When I first got interested in the church, I headed to Barnes and Noble to buy a copy of the BoM. They said they didn't have any, which I thought was strange. They had copies of every other religion's scriptures that I had ever searched for.
Maybe they're just trying to redress that lack, for completeness, or something. It is rather odd, to me, that they would not have them. However, I would think they could get a better deal just buying them from the church to stock on their shelves than printing a new version.
But maybe the church would rather distribute them the way they do now, and so don't print them for resale. In fact, I expect they don't. I bet if a large bookstore chain approached the church and wanted to place a big order for Books of Mormon to stock in their stores, the church might tell them no thanks.
But if anyone wants a free BoM with no missionary visits scheduled, they just have to say that. The church will still send them one. They will abide by people's wishes as regards missionary visits.
So the other question left in my mind is how can B&N possibly compete on price?
I think it's a good thing, though. Anyone who is interested can find the church one way or another. If they read the secular version of the BoM and the spirit speaks to them, then they will seek out contact with the church on their own.
[ July 13, 2004, 01:37 AM: Message edited by: ak ]
Posts: 2843 | Registered: A Long Time Ago!
| IP: Logged |
There is a link also on the front page of lds. org. It explains that Doubleday approached the church. HerePosts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I heard about this from my dad, and he seemed to think it would sell well to collectors of Americana, not just purveyors of religious artifacts.
Posts: 4089 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I know several non-LDS who own a copy of the Book of Mormon. Most of them are theologians to some degree or another, and like to verse themselves in all the religious offerings in order to understand them. Some people read it for curiousity, some read it for better insight, some read it to arm themselves against what they perceive as a "cult", etc. etc. There are a lot of reasons for non-Mormons to own a BOM. In fact, I have two in the bookcase headboard of my bed. One is a straight BOM, the other is the compilation with the Pearl of Great Price and D&C writings.
I agree with Alexa. There is an increased interest in the academic world in Mormonism -- this will be the default text for academics and students.
The text is more appealing than the Church version because it doesn't include all the footnotes and won't be broken up with numbered verses -- it'll be more readable for those who want to simply read it. The footnotes and cross references are great for believers who use the Book of Mormon as a source of doctrine and want to tie it into the rest of the LDS canon, but all that material could be daunting or annoying for someone who is curious about the text itself and doesn't care about the other stuff.
The price point seems a little high -- I hope they also do a trade paperback in the $10-11 range. I would buy it.
quote:the Mormon intellectual crowd -- what better way to display that you've broken away from the institutional church but still maintain your status as a cultural Mormon than to carry the Doubleday edition around?
This is why Utah is crazy.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
[mini-tangent] For some reason, I pictured some hideous romance-novel-esque cover with some huge strapping lad with bulging muscles carrying plates around or something.
I'm glad the cover they used is better. [/mini-tangent]
Posts: 5879 | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
If you go to B&N, generally all you'll find in the tiny 'mormonism' section are antagonistic books such as 'Under the Banner of Heaven', 'Mormon America', 'One Nation Under Gods', and, if you're lucky, a copy of G.B. Hinckley's 'Standing for Something'. - whereas if you go to other faiths, you'll find copies of their scriptures, from Islam to Hindu to Judaism to Shinto to Orthodox Christian. It's about time TBOM got to share some shelf-space with a commercial edition, methinks.
Posts: 2689 | Registered: Apr 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
What I like about the book of Mormon is it essentially says, "And Jesus ascended into the heavens... BUT NOT REALLY! He actually came to America first on a HUGE detour to show himself to the Indians. YAY!"
Posts: 529 | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Wait, Turgan, don't tell me. And now you're Jesus, right? It's so obvious. Turgan sounds like Surgeon who fight diseases which rhymes with Jesus.
No wait, I should have said,
1 And lo the Lord spoke 2"And he should note that Turgan is a man. 3And as Turgan is a man so too are surgeons men. 4And these Turgans and surgeons are one both in sound of voice and heart of hearts. 5But let not he forget that surgeons fight diseases 6as did my son, Jesus.
From the book of Lawyer, verses 1-6.
Posts: 3243 | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
kat: The LDS Church would have to provide inventory for bookstores to be able to stock it. My guess is that the Church has chosen not to do that -- probably because they'd prefer that people who want a copy talk to the missionaries, but also because it would require someone on their end to handle the distribution -- taking orders, packing, shipping, etc -- as well as the strange situation of making a profit of a work of scripture that you claim is important enough that you give it out for free.
That's why you can find copies of the Book of Mormon (in various editions -- but most often the blue soft-cover version that missionaries give out) in used bookstores, but rarely in standard bookstores -- it's all a matter of distribution.
That's why this Doubleday deal makes a certain amount of sense -- it's a new, different edition. Doubleday was willing to work with the Church on what it should be (so it's not some rogue edition or one that comes bundled with anti-Mormon materials) but it doesn't have to deal with the printing, distribution and marketing side of things.
Posts: 3423 | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
That makes sense, Zal. I wondered about how to handle selling a book that in most cases is give out for free. I think the DoubleDay edition is fine.
As another curiosity question, must DoubleDay cooperate with the church when it comes to rights? After 170 years, wouldn't the BoM have entered the public domain?
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
| IP: Logged |
JOSEPH SMITH, Jr., is the founder of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the translator of THE BOOK OF MORMON, which was first published in Palmyra, New York, in 1830.
I like that. They called him the translator and not the author. Doubleday has gone up another notch in my estimation of how they've handled this so far.
Posts: 5957 | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Kat: Yes. But that only applies to the first few editions. The current edition of the Book of Mormon -- the one that the Church uses -- is still under copyright. Doubleday wants to use that edition because this is supposed to be a 'current' edition and not a historical reprinting.
As to differences between editions, I'm not enough of an expert to know actual textual differences. But, for instance, the chapter breaks, versing, chapter summaries, footnotes, and estimated timeline (the notes on the bottom of the page that say things like "about 73 bc") are all still under copyright. Doubleday wants to use those (but not the footnotes and versing system) -- printing a version of the Book of Mormon that has already entered the public domain (such as the first one) is a different venture altogether with a different target market.
Posts: 3423 | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged |
When I was in Ann Arbor, we went and saw the 1830 BoM that the University of Michigan had in their Special Collections in the library. It was printed without chapter and verse breaks, and there were some grammatical differences. I don't remember what they were, but we flipped to 3 Nephi 11 and wigged out a little bit.
posted
Yeah. I read it. I got "attacked" by two mormon women while walking my dog and they gave me a free copy of it. The story is as follows. Joe Smith was confused about with religion he should follow. Well.. not so much religion as denomination. Methodists.. Babtists... catholics.... all were weird to him. They confused him. So he set out to walk in an orang grove to think it over. And i don't remember if he fell asleep or what.. but he had a vision and it told him to dig a hole in this certain spot. So he did it and found a box full of golden tablets that were written in some language he couldn't understand. So God sent him down a pair of Magic Glasses and he deciphered it. It essentially talks about the Americas and what happened during Jesus's life HERE. It's actually really interesting.
Posts: 529 | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
That explanation was like saying, I read the introduction of Enders Game, and know the rest is about a boy geneous who destroyed a planet and then tried to write a book about that planet. Of course, that isn't even half the story.
By the way, it shows yet again what Hugh Nibley constantly proved. It doesn't matter if the First Vision and the Vision of Moroni are two seperate and distinct events; those who are the most critical are the most likely to conflate them into one silly occurance.
posted
Notes of some Book of Mormon versions of interest. Some are still available:
Heritage copy of the 1830 first edition. This is my favorite to sit down and read without worry of intense religious study.
Official LDS addition, with footnotes, etc.
RLDS (Community of Christ) edition, with different versification.
Restored Covenant edition by Zarahemla Research Foundation. One of the many poetic structured texts.
Wade Brown, The Word of God edition, broken into parallelisms and other Hebrew poetry.
Donald W. Parry, The Book of Mormon Parallelistic edition, similar to above.
Readers Edition, that brings it back to paragraph form with a few footnotes and a few bits of poetry.
Then there is the FARMS critical reprint of the Original Manuscript (one third extant) and the Printer's Manuscript sources. Anyone want to buy me these for 200 dollars? No? Darn!
Posts: 2207 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Ah, they worked with the first presidency. That's really great. And I am proud of them for how they handle the description. This is one of the best secular descriptions of Mormon things I've ever seen.
It seems that most everyone else sort of casually without realizing how insulting they are being, insults the religion and the people and the entire history of the faith.
For instance, in that writeup of the hymnbook that belonged to Brigham Young that was being sold on eBay that Tom linked us to that time. They obviously wanted to sell the book, and could assume that Mormons would be high on the list of interested buyers, yet their summation in the writeup was extremely insulting bordering on offensive to the LDS faith, and LDS people. Obviously they didn't realize it was, or not if they didn't want to alienate most of their potential customers. It was just strange. But that's pretty typical of what I've seen in print. I'm so glad Doubleday did better than that.
[ July 13, 2004, 10:12 PM: Message edited by: ak ]
Posts: 2843 | Registered: A Long Time Ago!
| IP: Logged |
posted
I agree that the Doubleday publication is a GREAT idea, for all of the above stated reasons.
My two cents: A friend of mine had the Herald Publishing House 1830 facsimile version and I thought it would be a neat thing to own, for three reasons: (1) there is a certain pleasure I have in reading older editions of books, because of the old typeface, layout, etc; (2) it would be cool to hold in my hands a replica of the same thing that Brigham Young, Parley Pratt, Dinah Kirkham, and other faithful church pioneers read and in the process felt the spirit testify of its truth; and (3) you can always be benefitted by a text by looking at it presented in a different way than you are used to, much like Shakespeare takes on a different meaning when you read it as full sentences rather than lines of blank verse.
Anyway, it is for the 3rd reason that I would be interested in buying the Doubleday version, though 25 bucks seems a bit pricey.
- - - - - - p.s. the Dinah Kirkham thing was a joke. Posts: 786 | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote: Yeah. I read it. I got "attacked" by two mormon women while walking my dog and they gave me a free copy of it. The story is as follows. Joe Smith was confused about with religion he should follow. Well.. not so much religion as denomination. Methodists.. Babtists... catholics.... all were weird to him. They confused him. So he set out to walk in an orang grove to think it over. And i don't remember if he fell asleep or what.. but he had a vision and it told him to dig a hole in this certain spot. So he did it and found a box full of golden tablets that were written in some language he couldn't understand. So God sent him down a pair of Magic Glasses and he deciphered it. It essentially talks about the Americas and what happened during Jesus's life HERE. It's actually really interesting.
You can believe whatever you want to believe, you can think someone else's religion is completely nutty. You can secretly hold them in contempt and muse at the fact that no one is as savvy as you are or has half the ability to reason.
But once you sign on to a place like Hatrack and decide to articulate these feelings, getting all anecdotal in the process, you stop getting to indulge your wants and you start putting some freaking thought into your freaking posts. Wrapping it up with, "It's actually really interesting" does nothing to cushion your post.
I'm not LDS. But if someone decided to post anything nearly that disrespectful and had the nerve to tell me what I believe despite protestations, they would pretty much have taken up permanent residence in China Town. To which, of course, they had been takin' down.
Posts: 7600 | Registered: Jan 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
And I suppose a non-Christian might paraphrase the gospels this way:
"There was this guy, Jesus, whose mom wasn't married when she got pregnant. He grew up and stuff, talked to the Devil and did tricks. One time, he got mad at a tree and killed it. Another time, the party he was at ran out of wine, so he made more. Then he got some people mad at him and was killed. Supposedly, he came back to life with holes in his hands and went to heaven."
Strictly speaking, all this is true to the story. But, anything can sound ridiculous when you write about it with a contemptuous tone. One could easily describe ANY story that has meaning for someone else, in the same flippant manner.
Especially given the fact that a large number of posters here are LDS (as are the hosts of this site) one would at least try to speak of their beliefs/stories with the same respect that they themselves would wish their beliefs to be treated. Even if you thought it was completely false
Golden Rule and all, you know?
(ps: I'm not LDS either)
Ian
(btw: I was going to mention Dinah Kirkham wasn't real. )
quote: If I'm not mistaken, Ralphie, you probably get told what you believe all the time. . .
Like, seriously man.
Okay, now I kind of feel bad for going off on the kid (especially since I suspect he didn't even read it), but - apparently - that sorta thing makes me loopy.
Amongst other things.
Posts: 7600 | Registered: Jan 2001
| IP: Logged |
Release date is tomorrow. Don't plan on buying it soon; but that is a function of being broke rather than lack of desire to own it. Eventually, when I have more money in my account than money going out, I will purchase it.
Edit: p.s. Though the link takes you to Barnes and Noble, amazon is about 3 bucks cheaper
[ November 15, 2004, 10:02 PM: Message edited by: Brian J. Hill ]
Posts: 786 | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I read it at Paris Island and after in Korea, and I noticed one thing, it seems to be a perfect bridge reconciling the old and new testaments. Then I read some of the correction to the old testement that J Smith made and I realized that it was too perfect a reconcilliation. Truth is messy, events happen with no meaning, that is what gives the old testement its varacity, many of the things done by the good guys are appalling, Lot pimps his virgin daughters to help some VIP's, Moses takes sex slaves, Abraham pimps Sara to Pharoh...You get the idea.
Have you ever played a card game called bullshit? Each hand has to be higher then the one before, so if a guy says a pair, and then the next guy says two pair and the next says three of a kind you can tell it is bullshit because it is the next better hand. It is too perfect to feel true. That was my experience with the book of Mormon. However it seems to have created a hell of a nice bunch of people, I really wish I could belong but I would not like to sell myself as something I am not.
Posts: 117 | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote: There was this guy, Jesus, whose mom wasn't married when she got pregnant. He grew up and stuff, talked to the Devil and did tricks. One time, he got mad at a tree and killed it. Another time, the party he was at ran out of wine, so he made more. Then he got some people mad at him and was killed. Supposedly, he came back to life with holes in his hands and went to heaven."
even as a Christian, I find this description rather amusing. Though, perhaps living with an athiest has given me thicker skin. Posts: 1901 | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged |
This is the first time I've ever heard anyone doubt the veracity of the BoM because it's too 'perfect.'
My contrarian nature is pushing me to say, 'Nuh-uh! It's not THAT perfect!' But I'll just be quiet and nod.
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
| IP: Logged |
Of course, even if I had $72 to spend, I would find something else to spend it on. But it's lovely. (Sigh) It never occurred to me to want something like this, but many people have a family Bible, so why not a family BoM? The other problem is that, of course, I would also want The Doctrine and Covenants Family Heritage Edition and a family Bible to go with it.
Posts: 2034 | Registered: Apr 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
When I went to Salt Lake city, I ended up buying a second hand copy of the Book of Mormon, because I wanted to read it but it wasn't in the bookshop. I could have just asked someone, but I was only nine years old and very shy. I wish I could have got a newer copy, though. Guess I still could, since I'm no longer nine or shy.
I think that most people interested in the religion are often too worried about what they're getting into to contact the Church directly, so this would be the perfect solution. After all, many people come to Islam or Judaism, not through direct contact with members of those religions but through reading their scriptures and finding that they see the truth in them.
Posts: 1528 | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'm reading the Heritage edition at the moment. It's fascinating for the reason that it's in the form that Brigham Young and others would have experienced it. Also, because it's "warts and all" in the sense of printing mistakes, grammatical errors, spelling variations ('Cumorah' is spelled 'Camorah' consistently), but the power of the story and its message comes through uneffected by those imperfections. If anything, they are actually thrown into greater emphasis by the mistakes. The effect of contrast, I guess. Difficult to see how such a powerful and intense story with so many layers and such a wonderfully consistent message could have been made up by a farm boy (especially one who was prone to napping under orange trees!).
Posts: 867 | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
"Difficult to see how such a powerful and intense story with so many layers and such a wonderfully consistent message could have been made up by a farm boy...."
Well, in all fairness, he did have the opportunity to make several revisions.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
You know -- and I know this might sound insulting, so forgive me -- I find it really amusing that Mormons often say, "Joseph Smith was just an ignorant farm boy; how could he have written this long, generally consistent take on the Bible?" but never ask in the same breath, "Joseph Smith was just an ignorant farm boy, and hardly the first person out there to ask God for more information; why the heck would God have decided to talk to him?"
Either he was something special or he wasn't. And if he was special enough to be the first person in two millennia to be guided by God, surely it's not hard to imagine that he was special enough to write a decent novel. That kind of incredulity suggests that it's easier to believe that someone might receive divine communication than to believe that it's possible for people educated in farm communities to write coherently.
posted
It's not insulting, and it gets asked all the time.
There are a dozen places says that the qualifications for discipleship and his spirit are faith, humility, and a willingness to follow him. The inspiration, the words, and the revelation the Lord can and does provide.
Jesus picked fisherman to follow him.
Added: The restoration was the Lord's timing, and while Joseph Smith was foreordained for his role, it wasn't inevitable. He could have chosen otherwise. Instead of the Lord saving the restoration for the perfect proto-prophet to be born, when the time was right for it, a farm boy with faith was chosen.
posted
Oh, absolutely. But surely you are not suggesting that Joseph Smith was the first person in two thousand years to meet that criteria to a sufficient degree that God would take notice? If so, surely that in itself is infinitely more special and unlikely than extraordinary writing skill?
On one hand, you are saying "It would take a really remarkable person to write a book this good." And on the other hand, you are saying, "So we prefer to believe that God decided to make this person His chosen prophet."
posted
God didn't pick Joseph because he was great - because of Joseph's willingness to follow the Lord, the Lord made him something great.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
And, again, in two thousand years of human history, is it more likely that Joseph was the first person willing to let himself be so completely led by God, or that he was an uncommonly good author?
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
I really believe that - the Lord wasn't kidding when he said that if you lose your life, you will gain it. I was talking about this with Amira the other day - she was talking how emulating virtues meticulously eventually changes the self-definition.
Joseph had to have started out with some diligence and intelligence, but what he became and accomplished all came from the Lord.
quote:is it more likely that Joseph was the first person willing to let himself be so completely led by God, or that he was an uncommonly good author?
It was neither - it happened on the Lord's timetable. If the same vision and directive had come to someone in Spain during the inquisition or in Mexico right before the conquistadors came, re-establishing the church wouldn't have been possible. There was lots of preparation for the vision, and only a small bit of it had to do with Joseph.
posted
Why wouldn't God use an ignorant farm boy? Most of the Old Testament stories are about flawed people who did things they couldn't possibly have done because they relied on God. It's kind of a theme.
Posts: 2283 | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged |
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
