posted
On July 13, 2004, plaid started this topic on the wrong board. He asked me to move it, but alas, I cannot make it as pretty as he did. (Even janitors can only do so much!) I'll do what I can, as long as you know it looked a lot better when plaid first posted it elsewhere.
Kathryn H. Janitor
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quote:Was listening to hear someone sing out of tune (really, really badly) the other day... and got to thinking... does anyone know if being able to sing in tune is a separate skill from being able to play in tune? That is, if you can play an instrument well (say, piano), will you automatically be able to sing OK? Anyone know anyone who can play well, but sings badly?
posted
I think that they are related but separate skills. I think most people who can play in tune know when they are singing out of tune, but that doesn't mean that they can do anything about it.
Singing is a related skill, but not the same as playing an instrument. I use to be able to do both, but I injured my voice in high School and went form the soloist in Honors choir to not having a good voice, which is where i am now:D. I am usually in tune, but i don't sound good anymore; not really bad, but not good.
I played 7 instruments, one of them semi-professionally, and can still play in tune. If I am off, I just adjust the instrument physically, something I can see and adjust accordingly.
Voice is all internal, so fixing pitch is more a matter of feel.
posted
I can sing fairly well. My voice is good for blending and for solos. However, if you put me behind and instrument, I can't sing and play worth a darn. Anything past strumming a guitar and I'm struggling with both.
I can, however, play a fairly decent guitar these days (much improved from my "performance" at TomD's house), and I've been good with bass for quite a while. Just don't make me sing while I'm doing it.
posted
plaid -- so what you're really asking is if singing music and hearing music is the same talent. Because obviously those who play an instrument have to know if what they are HEARING themselves play is correct and on pitch. A singer may also know if they are on or off pitch, but don't have the skill or training to correct it.
My grade school music teacher -- the best musician I have ever known -- always believed there was no such thing as a BAD singer. Instead, there were just the untrained. For some people, music and pitch and hearing of such comes quite easily. To others it is a skill that has to really be worked at and practiced.
We had a student come into our grade school that, to hear him sing, you would think he was totally tone deaf. She refused to believe that. He has simply never been worked with and exposed a lot to music. After school every day she would work with him -- she would play a note on the piano and ask him to sing that note. He would sing it off key. She would ask "listen -- is what you are singing higher or lower than the note I'm playing?" He was usually able to recognize if he was off high or off low. This tells me he wasn't tone deaf -- he could tell the difference -- he just had trouble getting there.
Of course, there are some people who have physical impairments that limit whether or not their vocal cords can sing.
But personally, I think it is all a matter of traning. Some people, just like gifted athletes, just seem to "know" this from birth -- others will always struggle with it -- in singing or playing.
Farmgirl
p.s. - and don't forget that basically vocal cords ARE an instrument. So some play other (external) instruments better than their internal one.
posted
Yes, but there is an added complication when singing. have you ever heard a recording of your voice? Did it sound to you like you thought it would?
Singing makes you body become become the insturment, and cause it to vibrate when making the sounds required. That means that since your ears are part of your body the sound isn't heard correctally, and we all sound different to others that we do to ourselves.
I am not tone deaf, so i can correct my pitch, but can't do anything about my tone which is my main problem. I just can't tell if I am singing back in my throat or not, and as I grew up singing I have a strong voice, so in a choir I end up leading all the other guys into a problem.
I had a friend who never even knew if he was higher or lower than the note he was trying to follow. I had always thought that anyone could be taught to sing, at least to be passable enough not to embaress themselves.
I was wrong.
And the worse part was that he thought he was good.
posted
Kwea -- that is where training comes in -- to learn to hear yourself as you sound outwardly to others.
That's also why professional singers, when recording, where those headphones to help hear how it is recording and blending with the others.
Yes, my tone sounds much more harsh when I hear it on a recording than when I hear it in my head. Sometimes I will cup my hand around my ear, with the end of the palm at my mouth, to try to channel the outward sound up where I can hear it to see if I'm still correctly on pitch.
posted
I think it deals more with learning the mechanics, and hearing.
One can learn to play piano, and not listen to the difference in a 4th or 5th; as one can learn to play the correct chords by repetition, rather than hearing that it is correct.
Training your ear is something that you need to do in order to sing, if you want to A: sing with others, or along with any accompaniment.
I say these things having an ear for music, and chords; I acquired this from growing up listening to _LOTS_ of classical piano, and singing with family and in choirs.
BTW, it takes a TON more practice to be able to learn just the mechanics of an instrument when it comes to the strings, and even some wind instruments. With the piano and guitar you have boundries that don't permit you to make ear mistakes if your hands know the mechanics. whereas Trumpet, French Horn you still have the boundries, although if you listen closely you can still hear differences in pitch depending on your aperture.
Posts: 1132 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
Rav went and summed up my thoughts pretty neatly.
The thing I found interesting is that if you aren't born with super awesome natural tone and pitch powers you can learn them after, oh I don't know, say 10 some odd years of piano lessons. Maybe you even sing in a pretty good choir from time to time, play in the band, do musical theatre. Then say you go to college and don't do anything musical and BAM! 4 years later you're so flat you're an octave off whenever you open your mouth and can barely tell the difference between a major and a minor key.
posted
Yay Kathryn for switching the thread to this side! Yay mods!! Yeah!!!
Sometimes I find it hard to believe that ANYONE can live in the U.S. and not be able to sing... we hear music all the time, everywhere, it's pretty hard to escape it, you hear it in elevators... malls... when you're on hold on the phone... TV and movies... and everyone everywhere has their radio or stereo on... but I guess there's a difference between listening and doing... I was in choir all the way up until college, so I take singing for granted...
Posts: 2911 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
Like Farmgirl said, a voice Is an instrument. I played the piano for years and was pretty good, and clearly not tone-deaf, but learning to sing was a whole new experience. Learning to hear your own voice isn't easy for everyone (of course like she said some people or naturals). It was hard for me. I mean I'd sung hymns with the congregation in church but that was about it. There are lots of excercises to make the vocal chords practice hiting certain tones as well.
While I'll never be a great singer at least I can hit on pitch most of the time now. It also gave me a much better appreciation for what singers (and other wind instruments) go through and how to be able to accompany them correctly.
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Plaid, I have eventually gotten to the point where I can sort of hold a pitch and carry a tune--more or less--but my voice just isn't suited. The instrument is broken and can't be repaired. Posts: 1114 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
My mom is an excellent amateur pianist and has never been able to sing or even whistle well enough even to remind you of a tune. We've often joked about it, and decided that she was never tasked (and thus never "trained") to modulate pitch. She started playing brass instruments at age 35 or so and didn't have much luck. I believe that her lack of success was directly linked to failure to realize the need to listen more closely and adapt to the tuning.
I, on the other hand have perfect pitch! (Not even close!)
I've played a variety of brass instruments since I was a child. It is amazing, even with high dollar professional instruments, how they are often not in tune with themselves. That is, the notes created by many valve positions have to be physically changed, either by a slide movement (if available), or by change in embrochure.
I find that when I sing my "tuning" is pretty good. As discussed above, however, I can't seem to make sounds that anyone really wants to listen to. Need a lot of training, most likely.
Posts: 270 | Registered: Apr 2004
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Need a lot of training, most likely.
