posted
In Farmgirls Parole thread a person said she would pray that this felon remain in jail.
Is that right?
Shouldn't a prayer that would be harmful to another person be called a curse?
Does God answer such Curses?
How about the football team that prays for victory. Are the praying for the other team to lose? Is there a line to be drawn between the two?
I am reminded of Mark Twains, "The War Prayer". It was one of his writings that was refused publication during his life. Part of it goes as follows:
quote: "You have heard your servant's prayer -- the uttered part of it. I am commissioned of God to put into words the other part of it -- that part which the pastor -- and also you in your hearts -- fervently prayed silently. And ignorantly and unthinkingly? God grant that it was so! You heard these words: 'Grant us the victory, O Lord our God!' That is sufficient. the *whole* of the uttered prayer is compact into those pregnant words. Elaborations were not necessary. When you have prayed for victory you have prayed for many unmentioned results which follow victory--*must* follow it, cannot help but follow it. Upon the listening spirit of God fell also the unspoken part of the prayer. He commandeth me to put it into words. Listen!
"O Lord our Father, our young patriots, idols of our hearts, go forth to battle -- be Thou near them! With them -- in spirit -- we also go forth from the sweet peace of our beloved firesides to smite the foe. O Lord our God, help us to tear their soldiers to bloody shreds with our shells; help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, writhing in pain; help us to lay waste their humble homes with a hurricane of fire; help us to wring the hearts of their unoffending widows with unavailing grief; help us to turn them out roofless with little children to wander unfriended the wastes of their desolated land in rags and hunger and thirst, sports of the sun flames of summer and the icy winds of winter, broken in spirit, worn with travail, imploring Thee for the refuge of the grave and denied it -- for our sakes who adore Thee, Lord, blast their hopes, blight their lives, protract their bitter pilgrimage, make heavy their steps, water their way with their tears, stain the white snow with the blood of their wounded feet! We ask it, in the spirit of love, of Him Who is the Source of Love, and Who is the ever-faithful refuge and friend of all that are sore beset and seek His aid with humble and contrite hearts. Amen.
(*After a pause.*) "Ye have prayed it; if ye still desire it, speak! The messenger of the Most High waits!"
It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said.
posted
I think asking for a blessing is different than for a negative result, even if one implies the other. So praying for victory doesn't strike me as malevolent. Just a little tacky.
I would hope that someone going to war thinks they're doing the right thing; therefore praying for victory should be a given. Of course, both sides can't be right, and most of the time both sides are wrong.
I think it's better to pray for the general objective, not specific results. Why do we want someone to stay in jail? Because we want to stop a potential danger to society and he deserves punishment. Praying for those results, instead of a specific means of acheiving them, seems like the better way to go to me.
posted
Dan, I just wanted to say thanks. I could easily see in the other thread that this might become a new topic of discussion, and I appreciate you making a new thread for it instead of debating it in the other one.
posted
I nearly began a similar topic recently. Mine was on the subject of Karma:
quote: Hinduism & Buddhism. The total effect of a person's actions and conduct during the successive phases of the person's existence, regarded as determining the person's destiny. Fate; destiny. Informal. A distinctive aura, atmosphere, or feeling: There's bad karma around the house today.
Now, in a very real sense, not just a spiritual sense, Karma actually exists in human society. If you mess with someone else, they are more likely to do something back, and that is a real, measurable result.
Which is okay. It seems like a good idea to be an agent of positive Karma. Good things should come back to you, as well as it being a cool moral thing to do. But is it okay to become the agent of negative Karma? Isn't that just creating more bad Karma? If we are all just pawns, that would be one thing, but with free will thrown into the equation.
I'm still pondering this idea....
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posted
I think if a person is a danger to society, it is right to pray they remain in jail. Jail may even be the safest place for the perp. Now, praying that he died in a prison fight, or got the death penalty, or rotted in Hell...that would be different.
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posted
Football teams should pray to be safe, to have fun, to get a good workout, to be good examples to the spectators, and to enjoy camaraderie with their fellow athletes. I don't think God cares who wins the game.
Warring parties should pray that they might be instruments in God's hands in bringing to pass His will. Ultimately God will be victorious; people and countries and their victories are only temporary.
Our prayers for prisoners shouldn't be any different than our prayers for ourselves: that they truly repent of their sins and that they learn and follow God's will.
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posted
Heh. I remember the time my daughter prayed for President Bush at a public meeting (it was a meeting for children). Afterward I was trying to explain to here that there are some things that are better to pray about with the family. I dunno. Am I making any sense? I wound up explaining that I didn't like the last President, but it's still good to pray for him. Sinners deserve our prayers as much as anyone being the logic. Anyway, poor kid. She's almost as confused as I am.
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quote: Our prayers for prisoners shouldn't be any different than our prayers for ourselves: that they truly repent of their sins and that they learn and follow God's will.
I agree! And I have prayed often that he will find God...
And I really want to follow this thread, but have to leave now. Hopefully can see more of what everyone has to say late tonight...
The opposite of “curse” is not “prayer” it’s “blessing.” So technically you could pray for God to bless someone or to curse someone. Whether you should, and what God may think of such a prayer is an entirely different question.
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posted
I've always found it amusing that God might be swayed by our limited human perceptions and not by His master plan.
Of course, as irrelevent as a prayer may or may not be to the Almighty, it may be a measure of the person praying moreso than any actual result.
Be that as it may, this felon might have found God or he might not have. However, there is a wonderful Arabic saying, "Trust in God, but tie up your camel."
quote: Our prayers for prisoners shouldn't be any different than our prayers for ourselves: that they truly repent of their sins and that they learn and follow God's will.
I have no problem with this sentiment in the abstract. I also have no problem with them continuing their incarceration. The next bit is copied from Farmgirl's thread that generated this thread
quote: In my most charitable mood I would pray for them to have that epiphany I mentioned earlier and accept their time behind bars while using their new insight to help those that are less inspired.
I think this is fitting service for someone that took another's life in rage or selfishness.
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posted
Trevor, I have always felt that the whole issue in prayer is exercising faith. My personal belief is that God is not likely to "meddle" in the affairs of men except where there is faith.
This is not a completely bizarre topic even for the non-believing. I have heard of many people who don't believe in God that still believe that there is a sort of power in faith--a power that can influence reality beyond what one might normally expect.
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posted
Fair enough - I could even subcribe to the power of deep-held belief in _something_ as being a determining factor in the health and/or well-being of a person.
Being the cynic I am, I tend to chalk it up to an unresearched form of biofeedback.
Now, as to whether that kind of belief can somehow affect the world beyond yourself...I dunno. I rather doubt it, but then I'm the first person to admit my experience is hardly all-encompassing.
posted
Scott Adams (creator of Dilbert) wrote an intriguing book that included musings about the phenomenon of influencing the world outside of yourself with a sort of "faith". Like being extremely lucky. I am pretty sure he doesn't believe in God.
*goes to try and find the title*
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posted
Thanks, Dag. I really liked his alternate theory of gravity. While it doesn't hold up to close scrutiny, it was fascinating. I still think about it sometimes.
Haven't heard of the Tim Allen book. Perhaps I should check it out.
Also, read a great book called "What is Real?" Very good read.
posted
The problem with the Tim Allen book is he can't resist the easy joke, so his discussions get sidetracked easily. But it's an interesting afternoon's read. I like these types of books even if they're absolute BS. It's just fun to read what people come up with about the ponderable problems of humanity.
posted
Darn. Can't remember the author of "What is Real". Tried to find the title on the web, but apparently the major bookstores don't pay attention to me when I put quotes around my search. I tried to find it on our bookshelves too, but no go there either. Good book though.
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quote:"O Lord our Father, our young patriots, idols of our hearts, go forth to battle -- be Thou near them! With them -- in spirit -- we also go forth from the sweet peace of our beloved firesides to smite the foe. O Lord our God, help us to tear their soldiers to bloody shreds with our shells; help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, writhing in pain; help us to lay waste their humble homes with a hurricane of fire; help us to wring the hearts of their unoffending widows with unavailing grief; help us to turn them out roofless with little children to wander unfriended the wastes of their desolated land in rags and hunger and thirst, sports of the sun flames of summer and the icy winds of winter, broken in spirit, worn with travail, imploring Thee for the refuge of the grave and denied it -- for our sakes who adore Thee, Lord, blast their hopes, blight their lives, protract their bitter pilgrimage, make heavy their steps, water their way with their tears, stain the white snow with the blood of their wounded feet! We ask it, in the spirit of love, of Him Who is the Source of Love, and Who is the ever-faithful refuge and friend of all that are sore beset and seek His aid with humble and contrite hearts. Amen.
(*After a pause.*) "Ye have prayed it; if ye still desire it, speak! The messenger of the Most High waits!"
[heavy hyperbole]
As Bush would say, "mission accomplished."
[/heavy hyperbole]
You may now returned to your regularly scheduled discussion.
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quote:Where, pray tell, did you find that? And what do you think it has to do with our president?
You don't remember him saying that? Flew in a fighter jet, big photo op, speech regarding how Iraq was now free, and all that patriotic jazz? However, like I said, it's hyperbole. Don't take it too personally or partisan. It was meant for funny, not for fight.
Oh, and as for the discussion:
quote:I've always found it amusing that God might be swayed by our limited human perceptions and not by His master plan.
Actually, there are a few cases written in the bible where men have convinced god to change his course of action. There is a precedent for making the attempt.
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posted
It was in the quote box, so I figured it was a quote. Did you write it then? I'm just wondering where it came from.
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posted
I would think the appropriate prayer in FG's case would be that the person in jail change his heart and become a good person and that FG be given the perception to see it and the understanding to act on it and the ability to forgive him so she can get on with her life.
Note that I am not assuming that this already hasn't happened. Nor am I making any statements as to the rightness or wrongess of how FG does feel. I am just thinking what I maybe 'should' be praying for were I in here place. Of course, were I really in her place and had my father killed by that guy, I would probably not be so forgiving. It's easy to be forgiving when it's you who aren't suffering.
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posted
This thread was not started over comments Farmgirl made, but about comments made by other people about Farmgirl's situation. I guess personally I tend not to like the idea of negative prayers, especially about people I don't know. For example, I see a big difference between praying about a situation I know very, very well (like Farmgirl does about this parole situation) and praying about a situation I've only heard second or thirdhand, or on the internet. Because the less personally involved I am, the more chance that I have the facts wrong or have heard only one side of the story. So making a prayer specifically wishing harm to someone I don't even know, or incarceration to someone, feels...dangerous. Too much room for error. Although since God doesn't make errors I suppose it really doesn't matter how specific the prayer is. Even so a prayer couched in more vague terms, or focused more on positive outcomes, like healing or safety etc, seems better to me. How often does God answer prayers exactly the way we think we want them answered, anyway?
Although I'm not actually praying these days so maybe I shouldn't have an opinion on this subject.
posted
If anybody wants to know the truth on this subject, just ask me because I know it, whether or not I communicate it right might be another matter.
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quote:This thread was not started over comments Farmgirl made, but about comments made by other people about Farmgirl's situation.
Thank you, Theca. I didn't want to point that out myself. I wanted to continue to hear what everyone had to say about prayer (since I DO pray daily for many things) so I didn't point out that I wasn't the one who originally said anything about praying to keep him behind bars.
Because I do have mixed feelings on what is a proper "prayer" when it comes to this individual. I really don't talk to God about this guy at all. Because I don't know how I feel.
I do hope he will find God. I DO know that he has NOT shown or expressed any remorse or repentance for what he did. I do know that he has mental problems. I do know that he practices Voodoo. (that is not to offend anyone here who practices the black magic arts, so I haven't mentioned it before). I have friends working in the prison system who keep me informed. I do feel like he is a very real danger to society at this time, so I don't know if it is wrong to say I hope he remains behind bars for the safety of all of us...
Farmgirl
(and now, back to our regularly scheduled thread topic of negative prayers in general..)
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posted
1. suntran's our newest troll - check out the heinz-kerry thread.
2. Voodoo gets a bad rap - it's like using Jim Jones to represent Christianity.
A schmutz like this felon is one of the perverters of the faith - they warp it into this nasty, black magic, drum-beating evil power. Ooooh. Ahhhh.
Which, if that's what floats his boat, he's welcome to knock himself out. But that's not voodoo per se.
3. As to the righteousness of praying for this man to remain in jail - think of it as, "Oh God, my God, I know you have a plan and I hope it doesn't involve releasing this man from prison where he might and probably will be a threat to me and mine as well as society at large. So, unless you have any major objections and of course your will be done, could you see your way clear to keeping him safely removed from society until you feel he has served his purpose in your plan?"
I don't think Farm was praying, "Oh God, my God, I hope you smite this man down - that he dies horribly in prison and roasts in Hell for all eternity. Amen."
You will notice a subtle difference between prayers 1 and 2.
-Trevor
Edit: The "black magic" is a fairly all-encompassing term used to describe bad witchcraft, Satanism and arguably any clerical power not directly derived from Christanity.
You could argue tree-hugging Wiccans use "black magic" since it's not directly derived from the Christian God.
However, the more open-ended description refers to magical powers used for evil or coming from an evil source - whether it's the Devil or some agent of his.
Edit 2: Any magical power used to cause harm or injury to others is the more common definition I've encountered. A wiccan may make the distinction between "white magic" which is healing or helpful energy and "black magic" which is negative and destructive power.
posted
Well, in the trial he used "voodoo" as a defense -- saying he was 'under a spell" and "possessed" at the time of the offense.
The guy at the prison didn't call it voodoo when I talked with him -- some other term -- started with an "R" I think, and a longer word -- that he says the guy is petitioning the prison to allow him to practice. They allow Wiccan in prison, but this was something other than that...
As to the R-something. I'll look - it doesn't ring any bells.
-Trevor
Edit: Rastafarian? It's a lifestyle - music, dread locks, pot. They may or may not have a religious variant to themselves, but I don't recall reading anything that makes it particularly sinister or threatening.
Edit 2: A Rasta website. It's a "black power" thing - know your roots, culture, etc. Not traditional African history, but rather a blended approach from the Islands as I understand it.
posted
The Rastas don't practice voudoun. They are, in fact, quasi-Mormon MASONS.
Really.
In fact, google 'em. It's a fascinating and very quirky religion.
-----
Trevor, it was a religion WAY before it was a lifestyle. Google Ras Tafari (Haile Selassie), the last emperor of Ethiopia. The dreadlock look and marijuana use comes from Hindu mystics, due to the migration of several Indians to the Carribean; orthodox Rastas, though, are essentially Jews.
Some Rastas DO practice voudoun and other older Carribean faiths, although the Nyahbinghi (sp?) movement has basically marginalized them.
posted
Dan, I think you raise an interesting point. I don't know where, but it says in one of the scriptures "It is not good for a righteous man to curse".
But it seems pretty safe to request that a danger to society be kept from society.
Well, perhaps we can look at it this way. In one of the Bean novels, one of OSC characters points out that the greatest damage to a human being is sin. If that is the case, praying that human being be kept away from doing sin, is likely a great good for that person.
Of course, in prison he will likely commit crimes. But in public he will likely commit worse crimes.
Another way of looking at it, is by saying that the person still has to atone for his crime so that his sin can be expiated.
Which comes to the third reason. If the individual is simply a danger to society, everything changes. We are not so much praying that the felon remain in jail as we are praying that the community is saved from his depradations.
A fourth reason is to keep those who are vulnerable to commiting these acts from indulging in such. If they know they can get away with it, it would be damaging to them.
Well, that's all I can come up with. I never would have considered it if you hadn't raise the topic, so thanks.
posted
Fair enough Tom - but what are the odds this fellow has managed to pick up the legitimate religion?
I'm willing to bet he's embraced the trappings without understanding the deeper meaning and probably has jumbled bits and pieces together for his own belief structure.
Here's a link. Obviously, as a Christian, I can't precisely approve, but it bears no relationship to Satanism or "black magic" (unless you were to take that in the Alvinian sense, perhaps--power pecular to dark-skinned people), and it seems to be fairly moral aside from its exaltation of one race over the others.
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quote:and it seems to be fairly moral aside from its exaltation of one race over the others.
But don't all religions exalt one group (their own) over the others? After all, they (their group) are the ones in posession of The Truth. I totally expect people to claim that's not a correct interpretation of their faith, but essentially, that's exactly what each religion and denomination does.
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posted
The difference being - a race is pretty much limited to one set of people.
Whereas in Christianity and other religions, you can be converted and join the faith. As to the other, either you're African (or descended from) or you're not.
Of course, since the Rasta code doesn't define the specifics of descent, you can have a field day arguing yea and nay.
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