posted
The person I love most in the world and I planned to meet today, because she wanted to give me my birthday present.. she had made a cd of songs about relationships that reminded her of our last four years together.. and after she pressed play into the first song, she told me about an occurence the night before where a guy older then her tried to force her to do stuff while she was babysitting and he came home drunk- I don't know the whole story yet but he left marks, and she says she's still a virgin.. she's turning 18 soon but is 17 now, i'm 19, and the guy is in his early 20's.. what can I do that won't end up with me being put in jail? I want him to pay.. I can't let it go, and it won't be long before I end up punching something rather then random objects in my house.. I need some guidance.. Once again I look to all of you..
-Sir Montague
There's nothing in the world that upsets me more then an innocent, mistreated girl.. This one has hit a little too close to home for me to even trust my own decisions..
posted
Your best course of action is to urge her to file a complaint of some sort. Any action on your part should be to support her. I would highly recommend that you not confront this person yourself. Let the authorities do what they are paid to do and use your time to help counsel and console your friend.
Posts: 2022 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
"what can I do that won't end up with me being put in jail? I want him to pay.. I can't let it go,"
Well, then, you're up a creek without a paddle -- because the only sensible thing you CAN do is let it go. Advise her to not babysit there anymore, obviously, and report his unwanted advances to the police if she thinks it'll help. (Certainly, she should do so the next time, and immediately, rather than waiting a day and just telling a friend.)
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
I knew someone in college who went and beat up a guy who groped his girlfriend. The girlfriend had to drop charges against the groper in order to keep her boyfriend out of jail. Nothing you're willing to do to this guy will be worse than what the law can do, especially if she has marks, which will make the case easier to prove.
The best thing is to get this guy on record; even if they can't prosecute, they're more likely to believe the next victim.
But make sure it's her decision. You can give reasons, but don't push. She's just been through a traumatic situation in which she had no control. She needs to feel supported, not ordered.
Remember, this isn't about your anger, it's about her feeling safe and secure.
posted
There's nothing that can be done to make sure he's punished? I know it's the worst path, but I can't let it slide, I love her so much and to see her in so much pain is unbearable.. No one should ever have to experience something like that..
(edit- to add more) -- I agree Dagonee, completely.. I thought i'd be so flustered with anger that I was surprised when I broke down crying and just held her, sitting on a couch.. she said all she wanted to say and I didn't ask for more.. But I still can't let it go.. If I can do anything to prevent there /being/ a next victim, I want to do it.
posted
No one can, but be honest with yourself: Hurting him would make you feel better, not her.
Believe me, I feel for you, and would love to help put some hurt on this guy. But this isn't what's best for her.
If she won't go to the police, is there someone else to go to? If he's in college, the college disciplinary committee might be a way to go.
Or she could see a lawyer about suing him for assault, battery, and intentional inliction of emotional distress. Whatever it is, it must be her decision on her initiative.
posted
"There's nothing that can be done to make sure he's punished?"
Not without making things much, much worse for everyone involved -- including her. Advise her to press charges, and drop it if she won't.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
If you try to exact retribution personally you could make the situation worse. Dagonee even had a specific instance that showed what could happen. You need to stop thinking about appeasing your anger. That's what this need for retribution really is. Counsel your friend to file a complaint. Make sure she understands that she should avoid this individual. Be her friend, not her avenger. That could backfire on both of you.
posted
I think you guys think I want to kill.. which at one point sounded pretty good, but that passed awhile ago, and I was searching more for a way to possibly get him some time in jail or anything to that extent.. I just don't want him to think he can get away with something like that..
Posts: 690 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
At this point you need to accept it's entirely out of your hands. Whether he gets punished or not depends on a lot of people; none of them are you.
The same code that says it is wrong for him to assault her says it is wrong for you to take vengeance.
There's great, great advice here. I wish I'd had Hatrack when I was a kid and a friend had the same situation.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
I'm young, stupid, and make bad decisions, I admit it. And to prove my stupiditiy, though I realize these things, I can't let go. The only person that could make me let go is her, and it'll have to be a pretty good reason..
Thank you all.. Just need people to talk to sometimes even if you already have your mind set about something..
posted
Hey, I doubt anyone hear doesn't empathize with you on some visceral level. If it was my fiancee, you'd all be talking me out of it. I suspect you wanted to be talked out of it at some level, as well.
posted
If he left marks, have her go to a hospital ASAP, and have them document it. That way if she does decide to file charges, you have proof that SOMETHING happened.
Otherwise, even if you get into an altercation with him, she won't have any leverage to threaten him with.
And then you can go, with the hospital report, to his house and confront his family with it...if you really want to.
I would go with the police action, myself. They know what to expect, and what to do about it. Let them tell his family (is she was babysitting, then he has family, right?) what happened, even if you don't want to press charges. particularily if you don't...if you do want to press charges then it's better to not give him warning.
posted
as kwea said, take her the the hospital and tell them what happend. They can take photos of the marks...and act as witnesses if she decides to press charges. Once the marks go away it will be much tougher to prove what he did.
Even if he does not get convicted pressing charges will screw up his life as his family will then find out.
Posts: 1901 | Registered: May 2004
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posted
Regardless of whether or not she presses charges, she needs to avoid this man from now on.
No more babysitting, no being within close quarters without witnesses nearby.
There are reasons why such attacks go unreported - it's not fair, but there are reasons.
As for yourself - you're going to brood over this for a while. For a very long time, if I had to guess. You need to keep a very tight reign on your temper and be careful around her - any flash of anger and she might think it's directed at her.
posted
I know this is going to ruffle feathers, but I have to know:
quote:I don't know the whole story yet but he left marks, and she says she's still a virgin..
I'm simply curious, so you can feel free to tell me it's none of my business, but why did you put it this way? By "this way" I mean that she is still a virgin, not that the assaulter managed to force more than the already illegal handling. If worse had happened, would she no longer be a virgin?
I'm asking this because I don't think it's a matter of her virtue being broken or lost in this matter, whether her hymen is broken or not. For some strange and probably incorrect reason, I got the impression that her virtue would have been considered lost had she been treated worse. Frankly, I don't see how that is treating her (or any other girl) with any more respect than the jerk who decided he could put his hands on her uninvited. Once again, correct me for my (hopefully) wrong general feeling here, but you didn't mean that she would have been less of a person for the cruel and horrid actions of another person, did you?
Like I said, you can tell me it's none of my damn business, but since you brought it up here, I was just made curious by your choice of words.
Posts: 1170 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
I think what Pepek meant, was that by saying she was still a virgin, that this guy hadn't raped her, which is fortunate of course. If she doesn't go to the fuzz, you should. Beating the crap out of him wouldn't solve anything. Except maybe your urge to beat the crap out of him. The police help. I would also advise her to file for one of those things where a person isn't allowed near another person. I don't remember it's name. Good luck to you Pepek.
Posts: 17 | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
Do NOT get violent. It solves nothing and will just mess up your life (and hers) for no other reason than to satisfy your own urge to lash out.
Noble sentiment, perhaps, but that path can't win anything. Having a criminal record for assault will follow you the rest of your life, and not that many people will care that you did it because the guy groped a woman you love.
And, as you say, you haven't heard the whole story yet. And you may never hear it all if she is worrying about you doing something stupid. So, I have to ask, is your anger helping her? She may need some independent counseling.
She should probably go report this to the police. If it rises to that level. Since she is under age, but not below 16 years of age (depending on the laws in your state), it may not be treated with the kind of seriousness that, say, child molestation would be.
But this is not something to be ignored. Say she never goes there again. That means the family gets a new babysitter. Does he end up raping the next one because no-one stopped him? I don't want to burden your friend, but avoiding him and avoiding the situation means that it still exists -- but for someone else.
She has to decide though. It will mean that your friend's integrity comes under question. If she accuses him of sexual assault, her own morals and behavior will come into question -- it's still the way these things are treated in this society.
But, the word will be out on him.
Anyway, I recommend she call a rape crisis counselor or the local police and talk to a victim specialist. At least on that side of things, this society is becoming more enlightened.
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
To answer 'Justa Notha', I included that bit of information in hopes that maybe someone would know more about me in thearea and be able to tell me what kinds of ways I can attack this guy legally, because if she wasn't raped, I don't know how much trouble I could really get him in.. ANd I added the marks info because I thought I remembered seeing some case where a victim took pictures and thought maybe someone would elaborate on that through the information i've given.. I love her to death and this situation hasn't changed the way I look at her at all if not more lovingly... I spent alot of time with her today, just about every second I could.. sigh.. And I know I won't do anything rash.. I just wish she would take some action, because I couldn't bear it if it happened to someone else because she let it slide.. -Jack
Posts: 690 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
Hmm. Dag, is it easy to prove you were assaulted? I mean, did the guy who beat up the guy whom the girl dropped charges against do the deed publically, or what?
I'm in a similar situation right now. A friend of mine was assaulted and beaten by a man for years, and I want to get my hands on him -- the only reason why I haven't yet is because he's in Europe. But I expect him to return someday, and I want to exact some measure of what he did to her back on him; if he were to show up at a police station with my blood on his shirt or something, does he have a case? It's his word against mine about who challenged whom, yes, so long as I don't challenge him publically?
I don't mean to sound like the Neanderthal I am, but I really don't like this guy and he really needs to be on the receiving end of a fist, for once. How much danger am I in if he decides to press charges? She's already sued him for damages and got a pittance, so she doesn't stand to lose anything.
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posted
I know this also sounds neanderthalish, but I respect you for it Lalo. Sometimes it takes fire to fight fire in order for there to be a lower amount of innocent people being mistreated. -Jack
Posts: 690 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
Pepek, Paint this guys face on a punching bag and work out your retribution fantasies then perhaps you can stop thinking of yourself and concentrate on being supportive to your girlfriend.
Posts: 2022 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
Pepek- if he touched her at all against her will, it is assault. It may be misdemeanor assault instead of felony, but he can still be charge with assault. It doesn't even have to be sexual in nature to be assault, but I would start there.
If she doesn't want to press charges, try to convince her to at least file a police report. That way, as someone said above, the report is on file, and the next time someone calls this guy in, that report will work against him by showing he has a history of complaints against him.
posted
Lalo, I really can't give advice on how to get away with assault. I'm leery enough about speaking on real issues even when I say, "Go see a lawyer" and "I'm not a lawyer yet." Counseling someone how to commit a crime, even one I might be sympathetic to, is a direct violation of the Canon of Ethics.
From an evidentiary standpoint, his word (in a signed affadavit) and your blood on his shirt would be probable cause to get a DNA test to prove its yours. Everything else comes down to credibility in front of a jury. The prosecutor would either have no motive to give the jury, or would have to admit this guy assaulted a friend of yours. Anyone who ever heard you express a dislike for this guy or desire to hurt him would count against you. The relative amounts of damage each of you took would matter, too.
Conflicting witnesses with no physical evidence an no other witnesses are very hard to prove. This is why date rape is almost impossible to prosecute.
On the larger issue of vigilante justice, I can sympathize with the desire for it but think it's generally a bad idea. The only time I can see it being justifiable is to stop ongoing abuse, and even then there are better ways to go about it.
A lingering sense of injustice is the root cause of a lot of ongoing troubles in the world.
posted
Could you take pictures while she's hurt, just in case she wants to press charges in the future, that way you'll have them, but she won't have to make painful decisions right away.
I'm not quite sure why everyone is being hard on Pepek, he wants to help his girlfriend and he's asking us how he can do so. Although it wasn't clear in his original post he's said several times that he's interested in legal means of putting the guy away. He's not being selfish, he's trying to get information in order to help someone close to him.
Posts: 4655 | Registered: Jan 2002
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posted
Heh, though you're right Blacwolve, I guess I can understand how people tend to assume things-- she doesn't want to press charges.. i've tried to suggest filing a report or taking pictures and she shot it all down.. I've explained how it may help in the future but she doesn't seem to think it's an option, so, like some of you have said, i'm not going to push it, and I'm just going to be here for her, I had her tell me all that happened just once, and now I don't bring it up anymore, I just wanted her to be able to get it off her mind.. I'm just glad she's still here for me to hold her. Anyway- I know this is a sorta lame example Tom, but, lets say you have a gun, and some other guy has a gun, he's already shot two people, and now he's aiming at another big group of people, if you don't shoot him, he's going to start shooting them.. I can't see putting him out of comission being a bad thing.. -Jack
Posts: 690 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
Jack -- I'm glad she trusts you enough to have told you right away. That says a lot right there. Some girls would be afraid to tell their significant other if something like that happened. Sounds like you have a good, trusting relationship.
posted
First, be there for her, but don't harp on the situation, even in your mind.
She can tell and everytime it pulls the two of you apart, the drunk idiot wins.
Second, if you can't let it slide do what you can do. Write a letter to him, explaining in as non-threatening manner as possible, that you are aware of his behavior, you will be watching him for other occurances of that behavior, and that she will no longer be available for babysitting services in the future.
Whether you can mention that you will inform any other babysitter he finds of his past abusive behavior is unclear.
Becareful if you do this. You do not want to be arrested for threatening him.
You may also want to add that perhaps any person who abuses young girls like this should have family services keep an eye on their kids for abuse.
As far as violence stopping violence, yes it can. Ender stopped violence from happening to him by killing those who attacked him.
However, there is a difference between defending ones self or others at the moment of attack, and assuming divine omniscience and attacking others because you believe they will attack more people if not stopped.
An example: Lets suppose there is a country. We can call it US. Now suppose there is another country. We can call it Iraq. Now, Iraq has been abusive in the past, so the US was ready to believe it had these really nasty weapons. Lets call them WMD. So what did this country do? It attacked first. People died. People were injured. Lives were torn apart on both sides. When all was said in done, the intelligence people on the US side said, "ooops. We were wrong." Iraq had no WMD. Now this first country, the US, is guilty of assault in the eyes of a lot of other countries.
Posts: 11895 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
Heh.. I saw the US/Iraqi topic coming.. What I think will be really awful, is that if they actually do have them, and after Bush is gone they'll laugh at everyone that doubted him and then attack us.. - Mind you people, before you attack me, I did say I think that that would be awful. -Jack
Posts: 690 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
Look, I understand completely how a person can be swamped by the need to exact retribution. My sister was taken at gunpoint from her late night job and violently raped. I raged for weeks, I called her weekly for news of the search for her violaters.
It became obvious at some point that she did not share my fixation with regards to a resolution. She was moving on even though the perpetrator had never been caught
When I realized that my relentless quest for updates was becoming a burden to her I quit.
Blackwolve, You think we are being too hard on Pepek. If you read through his posts you will see a definite slant that idolizes some sort of personal involvement in the punishment of this abuser. He needs to stop thinking along those lines and focus on his friends needs.
I know his heart is where it should be, he just needs to get past his anger so that he can really help his friend.
Posts: 2022 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
... I think you are just reading it with assumed intonations.. from post numero uno though I was enraged I was still looking for 'the right choices'
quote: what can I do that won't end up with me being put in jail?
quote: I was searching more for a way to possibly get him some time in jail or anything to that extent.
quote: in hopes that maybe someone would know more about me in thearea and be able to tell me what kinds of ways I can attack this guy legally
quote: i'm not going to push it, and I'm just going to be here for her
I know i've showed lots of anger too, but if I wasn't angry, I wouldn't really be much of a boyfriend.. -I'm terribly sorry for what happened to your sister.. also sorry to dig up old memories.. -Jack Montague
Posts: 690 | Registered: Jul 2002
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quote:As far as violence stopping violence, yes it can. Ender stopped violence from happening to him by killing those who attacked him.
Ender, much as I love him, has the advantage of being a fictional character. He also committed two murders. Now, Bonzo was pure self-defense, but what about Stilson? Essentially, Ender killed in order to avoid being beaten up - using a great deal of violence to avoid a small amount. That's not very nice, nor ethical.
Moving on to the real world, let's take a quick look at, say, WWII, surely the shining example of a just war. It stopped the organised mass killings of Jews, gypsies, and homosexuals, certainly. But it did not end the underlying issues of fear of difference. Are Jews safe in the streets of Germany and France today? Will they be in ten years? And it is not so long ago that homosexuals were beaten to death by gangs here in the US. Will you claim it will never happen again?
Violence is sometimes necessary, but never sufficient. As with some diseases, it may be necessary to treat the symptoms, so that the body can heal; but do not lose sight of the real cause of the troubles. To do so is to invite another bout ten years down the road.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
There is no need for you to apologize. My sister's ordeal was quite a few year ago and we all have put it in the past. I merely mentioned it to illustrate that I could empathize with the desire for action. That I too had experienced the urge to throttle or pummel someone that hurt a loved one.
If I've misjudged you then I am the one that needs to apologize.
I'm wishing you and your friend the very best.
Posts: 2022 | Registered: Mar 2004
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If he does file a police report, it will be his word against yours - provided officers don't get called that evening and you don't look like you've been in a fight.
Can you beat this person to death and get away with it? Possibly. Are you willing to try? Can you live with what you may do? Never mind the legal consequences, but you will have to live with what you've done for the rest of your life.
And pounding on your friend's abuser is likely to make him feel scared which in turn makes him feel angry and he's likely to take it out on the closest person - possibly your friend.
If you want to get involved, file a complaint. File lots of complaints. Try and get an abused women's counselor to talk to your friend - I am assuming this is a female friend.
But I don't think you going to jail or ending up injured is going to make your friend feel any better or teach this person to mend his ways.
posted
"Anyway- I know this is a sorta lame example Tom, but, lets say you have a gun, and some other guy has a gun, he's already shot two people, and now he's aiming at another big group of people, if you don't shoot him, he's going to start shooting them.. I can't see putting him out of comission being a bad thing."
Oh, see, here I thought you were talking about vengeance and retribution, not prevention of an immediate harm. I was under the impression that you were NOT merely considering staying by her side at all times to dissuade him from further assaults, but rather wanted to seek him out and pound him to gratify your own pride.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:'m not quite sure why everyone is being hard on Pepek, he wants to help his girlfriend and he's asking us how he can do so.
I think most of us weren't being hard on him so much as emphatic. He's filled with understandable righteous anger. We wanted to make sure he heard what we were saying. I'm glad he's not going to do anything illegal, but that wasn't real clear from the earlier posts. There was a lot at stake, and we didn't know if we were the only source of advice.
Once the conversation diverged into hypotheticals, I think it stayed pretty consistent with the tone of Hatrack's many other hypothetical situations, where any attacks are on the position, not the person.
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