posted
I’ve made mention of this (my personality) before on Hatrack, I like to be in the corner at social gatherings, I don’t particularly enjoy parties, I don’t seek out company, I often like to be left alone. This is the personality type I’m talking about here, does it make me a worse, or at least, not as good person (compared to an “average” person)?
I don’t know, it certainly means I make fewer friends, and I reach out to people less, it’s not common that I’ll speak to a stranger. It makes me less likely to annoy and offend, yes, but also less likely to inspire or bring any sort of happiness into someone else’s life.
posted
Hobbes! You read my mind!! Do I have the article for you!!!! It's called "Caring for your Introvert" (click on the 2nd link).
I have come to EMBRACE the fact that I'm really an introvert, even though I do well with people, I'm a teacher, and I am very friendly. I just need that alone time to recharge. You know? I'm a little more guarded when getting to know someone...and I like to think a lot.
This isn't to say that I don't love to talk for hours about things that are important to me, but I have to be in the mood, and I have to really trust the listener. (And afterwards, I have to have plenty of alone time to process it.)
You are not a bad person.
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I am of the belief that there are no good and there are no personality traits. Every personality trait brings with it its own strengths and its own weaknesses.
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Narnia, I really strongly, strongly, strongly identified with that article (which, by the way, is fully viewable without subscription here), but the thing is, it doesn't really answer my question, just accuratly describes my "condition" and what I want as a result. The fact still remains that... well for isntance all the things our beloved Kat does for those around her, all the friends she makes, I will never do that, I will never be that person, and it means that many people will have one less friend as a result. I would like to think that it brings another strength somewhere, but I could not think of a one that helps me make the world a better place as a result of introversion.
posted
Hobbes, dude!! There are some really great traits that you have. I was having some of the same thoughts that you're having, wondering if people perceived me as a snob, or a cold, simply because I don't open up very easily. I took (what I thought would be) another silly personality test http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/JTypes2.asp and got a really really dead on the nose description of my personality.
What will I do with an other description? you ask. Well, this one was really encouraging. It pointed out really great traits that go along with my personality type that I know I have. You've got them too.
For instance, Hobbes has a great sense of humor. When I'm around Hobbes, I laugh. Posts: 6415 | Registered: Jul 2000
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quote:Are introverts arrogant? Hardly. I suppose this common misconception has to do with our being more intelligent, more reflective, more independent, more level-headed, more refined, and more sensitive than extroverts.
Nope. No arrogance there at all.
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Hobbes: Your personality simply means that if I saw you at a party I bother the crap out of you the whole night and do a fairly good job making you comfortable in a weird circumstance. I guess you have to decide if that's good or not.
posted
Claims of intelligence do not make it so. I am not mistaken, claiming one group of people are in general more intelligent than another without any basis in fact is not only arrogant, but somewhat bigoted.
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posted
Hobbes, why do you ask this question? Are you thinking of trying to change? Become more outgoing?
I look at it this way -- the shy or introverted person always has something more to give.
As you've pointed out, that might mean that you give less than others. or, it could mean that you can always be counted on when an effort is really needed.
That part's up to you.
I think the introverted or extroverted things are essentially neutral. It's what you DO with it that really matters.
One other point, though. Some people are so extremely shy or introverted that it gets in the way of their lives. Or they have a panic disorder. I would be very sad if we started judging such people as "worse" than others who don't suffer from that kind of restrictive malady. It's not like anyone can just will themselves out of it.
So, again, no value judgements on something like this.
What is the value of someone who's always out front? If human value was only measured by who makes HISTORY, then introverts would be judged as "lesser." At least on average.
But really, isn't that a cultural thing? Maybe what's really truly valuable is quiet competence in which case the introverts have it won hands down.
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posted
Hobbes, any one who's talked to Annie knows how much happiness you have the capability of bringing.
I, too, am an introvert. Social situations are a strain; I am not a bubbly person, small talk is my downfall and my enemy. I need time alone- that time has often labled me as 'stuck up' or 'snotty'. I was surprised to find that often people's first impression of me was that, because I didn't offer much banter in return to theirs.
I can't really offer much condolence except to say that you don't have to talk all the time to say something meaningful. It only takes a few words to inspire.
EDIT: I also disagree with Bob_Scopatz (I disagree with Bob_Scopatz! *ducks*) that it's only extroverts who make history. An introvert can act the part of an extrovert- it just takes a little extra effort and a lot of regeneration time.
posted
*also can identify with the article* But my shyness seems to have gotten worse. I am torn between wanting to meet more people and enjoying solitude, silence and music.. Or being too shy to talk much. It gets confusing and contradictory at times...
It makes me nervous that a person might dislike me because I won't talk much if I am driving in a car with someone or because I can't initiate conversation...
posted
Hobbesy, oh my stars, I could have and was thinking about starting this thread.
First, your question. No, I don't think that any personality type makes a better or worse person. Different personalities lead people in different directions, but fortunately there are many, many ways to be a good person. Our personality traits are like tools - the kind of person we are depends on what we do with them.
On a more personal note, I don't think you have any idea how incredibly kind you and how helpful you are to those around you. I get some residual goodwill by virtue of being a virtual sister-in-law, and I can't tell you how much I appreciate that. I have all the uplifting notes saved and think of them when I need it. Thank you.
-------
Part of what scared me about the whole personality test (enough to cause dreams about the less positive traits) was where it said my personality was liable to enjoy verbal games and the debate so much that sometimes it leads to, uh, not being sensitive to the sensibilities of other people. I'm thinking So at least this explains why some people expect the worst of me. I think I need to be careful of that, but I don't think my personality is wrong - it is what it is, and fortunately it complements at least some portion of the population, so it's not something I have to suppress.
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The other thing I was thinking about being extroverted - I think...I think it makes the extroverts vulnerable. I mean, I need people - I need large groups and I need to talk to a dozen people in a night. Not all the time...just about once every couple of weeks or so. I don't think that counts in the Brownie Points column if I talk to people as much because I need them as because they may need me.
posted
What I really want to know is this: when I obnoxiously drag you introverted people into the center of attention and make an obvious effort to break the ice for you at gatherings, is that a GOOD thing? Are you grateful that I took that bullet, or do you see it instead as my pointing a gun at your head? Would y'all rather sit silently in a corner, watching people and blogging on your wireless laptop?
This is, to some extent, a purely academic question; I am irresistably compelled to do this, so your answers will only tell me if I should be apologizing for doing it in advance.
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posted
It depends. A friend of mine would get so angry at me when I didn't join in the conversation, but she made no attempt to drag me into it, or at least to invite me. It is as if 2 people talking build up a wall and if I am the 3rd person or the 5th in a 4 person situation, how can I get over that wall? I won't just barge into the conversation myself, it's rude to interrupt people.
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posted
I won't think you're a worse person for being reserved if you won't think I'm a worse person for being loud and egocentric and never letting you have a moment's peace.
The good thing about introverts is that at least their quirks aren't obnoxious to the whole room.
Hobbes: *type type type* Annie: I feel like throwing a party. Can we have a party? Hobbes: Again? Annie: Yeah. I feel like making Algerian food. Can we call all our friends? Hobbes: (to himself) Do we have any left?Posts: 8504 | Registered: Aug 1999
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posted
I think it's funny when people try an involve me by saying something to the effect of, "what do you think, Victoria?"
I'm not shy, jusy introverted. There's a difference. I don't mind being picked on, as long as it's not an insult relating to my quietness. Some people are quiet and shy and you should tread gently around them.
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posted
Profuse apologies are in order, I'm sure, Tom.
I'm introverted - but give me a job and I'm happy. I have spent quite a bit of time practicing being a little more outgoing - mostly because I have a child that was born extroverted and I need to adjust a bit for both our comfort levels -
Hobbes - you are perfect just the way you are.
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posted
"...but also less likely to inspire or bring any sort of happiness into someone else’s life."
Hitler was an outgoing, charismatic guy. But don't we all just wish he'd stayed home and gotten stoned?
Your ability to bring people happiness is in no way related to your ability to entertain a room full of strangers. I like you a lot Hobbes, stop this silliness.
quote: when I obnoxiously drag you introverted people into the center of attention and make an obvious effort to break the ice for you at gatherings, is that a GOOD thing?
When people do this to me, I want to disappear right then and there. I tend to get nervous, tongue tied, and blush, and my first thought is "leave now."
But I'm cursed with being an introvert and shy.
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posted
I can go back and forth, Tom, so I'd probably wind up enjoying it. I'm not all introverted. But when I take those tests, I feel like there is implied preference for some responses on the questions. I'll have to pick it apart sometime. I'll have to. I won't be whole until I do.
In the end, I think they figured out which type likes to take personality tests and then wrote the questionaire to herd people toward that.
P.S. As annoyingly as he puts it, Justa is right in that if your personality doesn't make you "bad", it is also wrong to believe it makes you superior.
posted
Hobbes, it's natural and healthy to question yourself.
What you have to understand is, there isn't a right answer. Nor is there a perfect person.
Mr. Head, the dripping God of Virility he is, hammered the nail exactly. Everyone has strengths and weaknesses - there isn't a perfect personality type, nor is there an ideal set of parameters to which we should all aspire.
Would you honestly feel better pretending to be something you're not? This is not to say you couldn't or can't try to alter things about yourself that you feel could change for the better - but you do need to ask the important questions: what would I change and why?
The bubbly, out-going person could also be seen as a nosy, obnoxious and intrusive busybody. It's all a matter of perception.
posted
And yet there are those with borderline personality disorders. Why does "borderline" always go with "personality disorder".
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The standard for a personality disorder is the degree to which it incapacitates the victim, I believe.
"I don't suffer from insanity; I enjoy every minute of it?"
A "borderline personality disorder" is just enough to be detected, but not enough to incapacitate the victim and prevent him or her from functioning in a meaningful and productive manner in society.
quote: Hobbes: Your personality simply means that if I saw you at a party I bother the crap out of you the whole night and do a fairly good job making you comfortable in a weird circumstance. I guess you have to decide if that's good or not.
I’m not sure you were actually implying this, but I’m going to say anyways, I’m not necessarily uncomfortable, or even unhappy at a party, just that it’s very draining, and it’s not necessarily more fun for me then sitting at home alone on the computer or with a book. ::shrug::
quote: Hobbes, why do you ask this question? Are you thinking of trying to change? Become more outgoing?
Just something that I’ve been thinking about. I realize that if I do think I could be better with change, I should change, but I’m not sure how committed to perfection I really am.
quote: I think the introverted or extroverted things are essentially neutral. It's what you DO with it that really matters.
What exactly can you do with introversion?
quote: Hobbes, any one who's talked to Annie knows how much happiness you have the capability of bringing..
quote: I can't really offer much condolence except to say that you don't have to talk all the time to say something meaningful. It only takes a few words to inspire.
I’ll try to remember that, I’m afraid though that my first words to someone I don’t know are normally very boring, and frequently, my last.
quote: First, your question. No, I don't think that any personality type makes a better or worse person. Different personalities lead people in different directions, but fortunately there are many, many ways to be a good person.
I agree with that (the last part), but there are also many ways to be a better person. I would never think that being an introvert is at all similar to being a “bad” person, but I see how it could make someone … well how someone could be a better person by not being introverted. I also hate to judge negatively on something that’s so fundamental to who we are, but I’m wondering, how fundamental is it? Is it really part of the definition of self, or is it something that can be changed, like we can learn to change our anger to forgiveness, and forgiveness to love?
quote: I get some residual goodwill by virtue of being a virtual sister-in-law,
You’re a good sister-in-law Kat, and I’ll try harder to tell you so.
quote: The other thing I was thinking about being extroverted - I think...I think it makes the extroverts vulnerable. I mean, I need people - I need large groups and I need to talk to a dozen people in a night. Not all the time...just about once every couple of weeks or so. I don't think that counts in the Brownie Points column if I talk to people as much because I need them as because they may need me.
Whatever reason you’re doing it for (and I tend to think altruism with you Kat) it doesn’t change the effect it has on the people around, namely a positive effect.
quote: What I really want to know is this: when I obnoxiously drag you introverted people into the center of attention and make an obvious effort to break the ice for you at gatherings, is that a GOOD thing? Are you grateful that I took that bullet, or do you see it instead as my pointing a gun at your head? Would y'all rather sit silently in a corner, watching people and blogging on your wireless laptop?
Does the person look unhappy? If so they probably really want to jump in but can’t break the ice and do it. If you wondered what would get you adulation from them, I would say never, ever drag that person in. Anything they screw-up, even if no one notices it, they’ll blame you for, and resent it. Maybe it’s good for them though, I don’t know, but in my experience people tend to really resent it in that situation. If they look like they’re just dying to say something but the opportunities keep passing buy I’m sure they’d appreciate a little help to steer the conversation in their direction. Anything else, use your own judgment. Not a lot of help, am I? What do you expect, I’m an introvert!
quote: I won't think you're a worse person for being reserved if you won't think I'm a worse person for being loud and egocentric and never letting you have a moment's peace.
I’m not sure if you were talking to me specifically Annie, or just the general “you”, but I’ll pretend it was to me so I can respond. First off, you no I don’t think you’re a worse person, I think you’re perfect, and I hope you know that. Second, being with you is greater peace than any other part of my life, I do want to be with you so you can leave me alone, and I do want to be with you.
quote: Hitler was an outgoing, charismatic guy. But don't we all just wish he'd stayed home and gotten stoned?
Well I’m not going to say that being introverted makes you better, but I’m wondering if being introverted by definition means there’s room for improvement.
You and Shan, both Y’all are too kind.
quote: Would you honestly feel better pretending to be something you're not? This is not to say you couldn't or can't try to alter things about yourself that you feel could change for the better - but you do need to ask the important questions: what would I change and why?
I would feel like a hypocrite pretending to be someone I’m not, I’d feel like a good disciple trying to be someone better than I am. What I would change would be to become more outgoing, more willing to open up and talk to those I don’t know well. The why is why I started this thread.
quote: I’ve made mention of this (my personality) before on Hatrack, I like to be in the corner at social gatherings, I don’t particularly enjoy parties, I don’t seek out company, I often like to be left alone. This is the personality type I’m talking about here, does it make me a worse, or at least, not as good person (compared to an “average” person)?
I don’t know, it certainly means I make fewer friends, and I reach out to people less, it’s not common that I’ll speak to a stranger. It makes me less likely to annoy and offend, yes, but also less likely to inspire or bring any sort of happiness into someone else’s life.
If you're an honest introvert and you like being left alone, that's great. The problem that I've found is that introverts often have problems expressing themselves, which is very frustrating for people who actually care about your opinion. In some people, introversion is a way of controlling other people. I don't think you're like that, though, Hobbes.
Speaking as an introvert, the main problem I have is getting people to leave me the flock alone and not be offended when I say that I don't want to go out to a social occasion and, yeah, I really would rather just do my own thing while everone else goes out.
On the other hand, it's important to be flexible and learn to be able to let others break you out of your shell. Sometimes we're not as introverted as we might think we are.
Finally, I think it's important to be able to put up a good front sometimes. People often percieve silence as a lack of caring about the other people in the room, or rudeness. Introversion *is* very egotistical. So, it's important to recognize that sometimes we have to move our lips and make the appropriate polite sounds at other people in order so that we let them know that we bear them no ill will. Sometimes we find that what other people have to say is interesting.
quote:To answer the original question, only if your definition of a better person is "someone who talks a lot."
That's not my definition.
Well here's my "thing": extroverts clearly do have a recognizable benefit to those around them over introverts (if we're assuming they "use their gift for good" ), namely a larger number of friends (everyone likes having friends) and more people feel included and noticed.
So if this is true, then for introversion not to be worse, it has to offer something else, some benefit that extroverts don't give instead of those that extroverts do have. Do these benefits exist, and if so, what are they?
Bob'd answer I think is a step, but I have to disagree, I don't think that being introverted means that when it comes time you'll necessarily have something to give, often times you're not use to it, or at least I know I'm not, and it trips you up, and stops you, where as extroverts are far better to be counted on in social situations.
I've seen a lot of "how you use it", and "each has their upsides" comments, but I guess I'm just not clear on what the upside of introversion is.
posted
I don't know that I subscribe to the notion that having more friends is better. Quality not quantity is more than a marketing slogan.
You can learn to be more social and use that or not as you will, but I think you need to be very clear as to what you define as "being a better person" and be equally honest when you ask yourself why is this important.
posted
Socially speaking, there is no upside to being an extreme introvert. That is, if you contribute nothing to a convesation and basically blow people off when they try and talk to you.
Where the upside of being introverted comes in, to me, is when you let other people talk and where you *listen* to what they have to say and respond to what they are saying and let the conversation be about them, rather than about yourself. This seems to me to be a lot like how you already approach conversations to some degree, Hobbes. So, there you are.
posted
As to the "up" side of introverts, they typically have more energy to focus elsewhere beyond trying to maintain social connections.
Introspective people tend to be more contemplative, thoughtful and direct in their dealings and in their approach to life.
-Trevor
Edit: To expound on Storm's point - being extreme in any fashion or form is more often than not a bad thing. Pick anything you like, tack on "extreme" to the description and see how it ceases to be a good thing.
A true introvert wouldn't have started the thread....but as someone who doesn't know you at all, I don't think your worse for it.
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quote: I don't know that I subscribe to the notion that having more friends is better. Quality not quantity is more than a marketing slogan.
True enough, but I don’t think that an extrovert’s friendships are any less … quality than an introverts. Or rather, I think an extrovert would have as many close, “quality” friendship as an introvert (or more) and then would have a whole lot of other friendships as well. Maybe they aren’t the same, or as meaningful as friendships can be, but they’re still positive.
quote: You can learn to be more social and use that or not as you will, but I think you need to be very clear as to what you define as "being a better person" and be equally honest when you ask yourself why is this important.
Well a large part of my definition of good and bad is derived from what creates the most joy (long term) and what results in the most sorrow. Not sure how you want to apply that, but basically I would say that my personal definition of morality is that people should be as happy as possible. And just to catch this one, I recognize that obviously I make me happy be being alone, by being introverted and yes, that counts for something, but two things, one is my question about how fundamental to us is our personality trait in terms of introversion/extroversion? And second is, while me being happy counts, so would making others happy.
quote: Where the upside of being introverted comes in, to me, is when you let other people talk and where you *listen* to what they have to say and respond to what they are saying and let the conversation be about them, rather than about yourself.
quote: Introspective people tend to be more contemplative, thoughtful and direct in their dealings and in their approach to life.
Hmm, I’m liking this, I could believe this. *pays tribute to Kat and: *ponders* *
posted
I think this is kind of like the straight hair - curly hair debate.
Those who have straight hair and always curling it because they want curly hair; and those who have curly hair and always straightening it because they don't like it curly.
Same with introvert/extrovert.
The introverts are over here saying "Gee, I wonder if I'm missing out on parts of life because I'm an introvert" and the extroverts are saying "Gee, I wonder if I'm missing out on parts of life because I'm so outgoing that sometimes I don't stop and listen to others and reflect."
I am extroverted. So yes, I have no problem with parties and talking to strangers, etc. etc. But I often admire the introverts around me -- for their restraint -- for them NEVER having the "foot in mouth" problem of talking before thinking. For their quiet reflective nature that calms me when I'm around them. For their ability to observe before acting better than I can. (I'm one of those "fools rush in" people).
My son is very much like your personality, Hobbes, so sometimes that creates conflict. Like the article said, I'm the one that is constantly saying, "What's on your mind? What are you thinking?" and he hates that.
posted
One of the things that bugs me about the introvert/extrovert scale is that it gives many people an excuse for their social anxieties.
It's not that "Oh, I'm afraid of people and lead an emotionally stunted life because of it." It's "I'm an introvert."
Conversely, it's not that "I need to constantly distract myself with the flashy things in social interactions because of my own self-doubts." It's "I'm an extrovert."
In my life, I can only think of two pure introverts that I've known. As a flaming extrovery myself, I know quite a few more pure extroverts, but even that numbers pretty low. The rest of the people are mainly insecure.
You can truely be an introvert, but if you're frightened or made extremely anxious by other (especially new) people, you're likely not a healthy one. Remove the fear (as I've been a part of helping some people do) and you might develop a much different personality. Likewise, you might be actually extroverted, but if you are largely unable to spend time with just yourself, then you are likely not a healthy one. Most of the true extroverts I've known have had extremely complex internal lives and could form very strong emotional bonds.
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quote: "Oh, I'm afraid of people and lead an emotionally stunted life because of it." It's "I'm an introvert."
But I'm not afraid of people. I merely don't have a lot to say outloud. The only social things I've been excluded from by my introvertness is loud gatherings with lots of people that go on for hours- those I can't stand, and I invariably leave early.
My social life tends to be a little stunted because many social things are the parties described above.
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posted
I agree that using labels as an excuse for your shortcomings isn't very healthy. On the other hand, recognizing unhealthy tendencies in your behavior is crucial to being able to change them or find ways to deal with them.
I tend toward introversion. In some ways it's healthy and gives me a chance to develop skills/qualities I'd have a hard time developing otherwise. I'm an INFJ (or at least I test as one and identify strongly with the descriptions), and I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be able to use my intuition as well as I do if I didn't spend a lot of time thinking things over by myself, or being quiet and observing rather than participating. I also know that my ability to "read minds" sometimes is really just a product of introverted reflection, intuition, and a little bit of logic, and so I don't fall into the trap of thinking I have ESP or some other sort of clairvoyance.
On the other hand, being introverted is often associated with having social problems. I do tend to panic and withdraw in some social situations in a way that doesn't feel right or healthy. It's something I don't like about myself, and feel I need to work on, so I take steps to deal with it. For example, being stuck at a social event after I've had enough and need to 'regenerate' is a big problem for me. So I make sure that I have a way of leaving whenever I need to, or I plan on only staying for part of the event, and clear that with the host, or I make sure to set aside some quiet time for reflection earlier that day, so that I arrive at the social event fully charged.
It all makes more sense to me, and I'm able to identify the problems I have better, within a framework of labels.
**************
On the original topic, though, I don't think being introverted makes you a worse person. It takes all kinds to make the world a better place. There are lonely, quiet, shy people out there who are scared to death of extroverts. They need friends and people who can make them feel understood, too, though, and often find them in introverts. I may not be the outgoing leader who pulls together a fundraiser or social movement to help the masses, but I'm quiet and observant and like enough to at least one very shy person to be their friend and love them in a way they're comfortable with.
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posted
I don't think I am emotionally stunted, just the opposite. I'm hyper polite and strongly affected by things like music and other people's emotions. I like close connections, not just casual ones that are shallow and mostly consist of dull small talk about inane things like gossip. I hate gossip. I don't want to know about people's sex lives unless they trust me with such info for some reason. I like deep, intense, moving fascinating things and people... I don't like pretending and illusions. You get a lot of that in social situations. Drives me mad.
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quote:What I really want to know is this: when I obnoxiously drag you introverted people into the center of attention and make an obvious effort to break the ice for you at gatherings, is that a GOOD thing? Are you grateful that I took that bullet, or do you see it instead as my pointing a gun at your head? Would y'all rather sit silently in a corner, watching people and blogging on your wireless laptop?
Bill shudders to hear your name.
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posted
The question that really matters Hobbes, is if you think you would be a better person by socializing. It doesn't necessrily have to be parties or large groups, but I would say it would be a good thing to be mindful of. Time to be by yourself is important, but so are social opportunities. Not necessarily to be a better person, but to live life to its fullest. To feel a part of humanity and make your mark on it. Balance in all things. But there you see my take on the world.
quote:I look at it this way -- the shy or introverted person always has something more to give.
Bob! I must protest! I think the rest of your post makes sense, but often I find that I just cannot put the emotional involvement into the situation and so therefore I really don't have anything left to give. That doesn't mean that I don't think I have any qualities or stories that people would be interested in, just that it takes a certain amount of energy to keep abreast of a conversation that I don't currently posess. I agree that those there are missing out on the essence that is me, but I think it is better to work on strong friendships where I can really make a personal impact on someone's life and I put less energy into impacting a crowd because it is harder to see results and I cannot get the level of interaction that I would really like. If that makes any sense. Perhaps not. Posts: 1777 | Registered: Jan 2003
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An extroverted person is spending all his time thinking about and dealing with people. That's not bad, but people are not all there is to the world. While the extroverts blab away, the ice caps are melting, the oil is running out, and the ozone's eroding. Now maybe it'll be the extroverts who eventually wind up talking to the right people to get the problems fixed--but without us to focus on the rest of the world they'd never notice till they broiled or froze or suffocated. (I wish I could remember some of Al Pacino's lines from The Devil's Advocate--the ones about Eddie Barzoon while he gets whacked--but I can't find a script that includes them. They'd be great here.)
Posts: 1114 | Registered: Mar 2004
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